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Transparent Cards: (Dis)Advantages thereof.

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3XXXDDD
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TRANSPARENT CARDS (or game pieces in general) - (Dis)Advantages thereof? For one, I think leveling systems can be applied much more dynamically.

Taking Pokémon as an example, you can evolve an Eevee with "scratch" into a Vaporeon with new but non-additional abilities because for some reason it forgot Scratch.

However, using a Transparent card, you can overlay Vaporeon with the two additional abilities (which are placed higher up in what should be a standardized text box) while allowing the original scratch move showing through the transparent layer). So if you evolve it into a Vaporeon, you'd have scratch and the additional Water Gun ability but if you evolve it into Jolteon, you'd have scratch and the additional Thundershock ability. Using this with something more generic, such as race, could actually create whole new variants of strategy.

I think a good way to approach this would be to have 3 core levels. Each level would correspond to a space on the standardized text box, so top of the box would be Level 1, Middle would be level 2 and bottom would be level 3. Level 3 creatures would have their skills written at the bottom of the text box, whereas level 2 would have them in the middle and level 1 would have them written at the very top.

A disadvantage, readily apparent in my example, is that on lower iterations of the cards you could be left with quite a bit of empty space to the point of disorienting. Granted games like Yugioh and Magic already have quite a bit of empty space on some of their cards and no one has had a huge problem with it.

Any of your thoughts?

Stormyknight1976
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So its like playing the lottery?

Lottery or prepaid phone cards as to scratch of and reveal the weapon or level? Players will be scratching off all three just to find the weapon effect? Unless you have LV 1 then scratch and so forth?

Stormyknight1976
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Haha dummy me

I read your post wrong.

kos
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Mix-n-match cards

I think there is un-tapped (no Magic pun intended) potential in transparent cards, if somebody could come up with a cost-effective manufacturing process.

In addition to the "levelling up" idea in the OP, transparent cards could be used for equipment in a fantasy game, or pilots in a mecha/space game, etc. You could use them as a "fog of war" where the top card is used to mask the card underneath while letting your opponent see certain parts of the card.

Of course these mechanics can be handled in other ways or with other components, but transparent cards may have a "cool factor" to set the game apart from just another card game.

Regards,
kos

JustActCasual
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.

One problem I've found with transparent cards in Gloom is that they often telegraph some information about what you have in hand.

3XXXDDD
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So I originally started this

So I originally started this post asking about Transparent Cards but I think that might be a bit too limited on a view how to approach the concept in it's entirety (For clarity, the aim is to allow information from under layered cards to appear easily through to the top of the cards in an effort to present one or more additional levels of depth to a game)

For one, as noted we have problems with concealing hidden information as well as binding (plastic basically melting/attaching itself to certain rubbers) which could cause quite a bit of a problem.

Well one way we could approach the latter problem completely and the former partially, is to have cards with open slots in them. Taking the standardized text box example I created above, instead of having a card with at least a transparent text-box (if not entire card) we could have a standard card but with gaps in the text box for the abilities from the lower level cards to show through. Granted, this might cause some inner darkness that could obscure lower text, it's probably not a huge concern though. As well as this only covers the exact information but it can still give your Opponent an idea of what you have depending if you used a formula similar to the standarized text box (Level 2 abilities have effect text in the middle, level at the top and so on).

So an alternate idea, which actually allows hidden information to exist, would have the text box be just one big gap with an opening in the side where you could sleeve abilities in and out of the text box at will, some restrictions of which abilities go where could be based on what particular titles of cards or even their race.

Using Pokemon as an example again, any Water Pokemon can learn Water Gun but no Fire Pokemon could learn it and this could be noted on the ability text or maybe any Pokemon could learn the move Water Gun at long as they had a water symbol on their card that matches the water symbol on the ability text.

Assuming that there is no other dead giveaway information here and all ability texts are of equal size and shape, concealing hidden information while allowing transparent information is feasible.

However if you don't care so much about hidden information in your game, you could take this to a new level and have abilities "balanced" against each other by their size.

E.g. You have 3 abilities each of which are worth 1 Point and are one lines worth of text. You can place ALL 3 of these abilities onto a single character.

You also have an ability which is worth 2 points and is two lines worth of text. If you slide this card in to the Character's text box, you are now bound by the actual physical constraints of the card itself and only have room to play one additional single ability with 1 Point/1 line worth of text.

Taking the entire train of thought into account, you could use information like this to do some neat tricks like

- Play a Dress Up game (I actually want to find some barbie and other clothes pictures to do this). You would overlay clothes on top of each other until you found a matching outfit (which would probably be noted by some symbol like P1 meaning Pink Outfit - Style 1 on each separate piece of clothing)

- Change up your Equipment. One of the reasons it was so tough to make a classic style Fantasy RPG Card game was because it was so clunky because you would have a party of 3-4 each with their own 3 equipment (Weapon, Shield, Accessory) with transparency, you can save quite a bit of space on the Playing Field to make the game play much more fluidly and maybe even create a successful version of this classic/cliché game

- Mix and Match abilities. Plenty of the beauty coming from Modern Day video games it the ability to let the Player chose who they want to be. You want to be a Black Mage who also knows Cure? Go ahead! You want to be a Fighter who knows how to Summon! GO AHEAD! Freedom of choice is what many, many people crave and letting variations like this exist allows each person to project themselves further onto their character which in turn lets people enjoy it more and more as long as it lets people go deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole.

Not to mention, in many CCGs you'll see the same abilities and much of the time practically the same card, I'm not saying that there wouldn't be overlap in a CCG using this format opposed to a CCG with a more traditional format, I'm saying there is more room and chance to allow for variation in this style.

So yeah, I think there is a worlds worth of discovery to be had here. Also my fingers are on fire from typing, yeowch.

JustActCasual
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`

Another solution would be to put information that carried forward on one side of the card (probably the bottom) so it still peeks out from under the other card. So if Squirtle knew scratch and water gun you might put water gun on the bottom of the text box, and then when you evolve into wartortle you play that card higher up rather than directly over, and the water gun text still shows. This could also work well with cards in a landscape orientation: then you could put the information on the top of the card and see it as the card fanned, just like in your hand.

NomadArtisan
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First off, I want to say I

First off, I want to say I played the pokemon games in my youth and enjoyed them quite a bit. So when I started reading about evolving cards and retaining some of their previous information, i thought "Yes, this card game would be sweet!" but then I started thinking about it a bit more, and the feasibility of achieving this with transparency diminished in my eyes.

The ways you're thinking of using transparency could be just as easily achieved by placing one card on top of another and staggering them so that the information you want displayed on lower cards still remains visible while using up minimal table space.
Also, I don't think that transparent cards atop each other would be more elegant than staggered cards, because you'll be having to readjust the stack of cards every time they get the slightest nudge. Not to say you wouldn't have to do similar with staggered cards, but just saying I don't think transparency would gain you anything there.

I think that, unless there's no way to achieve the mechanics you want without transparency, transparency becomes more of a gimmick instead of an intertwined aspect of the game.

I would also ask about any card game that would absolutely need transparency in order to work, why not just make it digital? Digital media would readily lend itself to this sort of thing.
This argument, I think, can be compared to a story told by a movie vs a book. Both are completely different media, you can do things in a book that are fantastic for the story but would absolutely fail as a movie, and vice versa. I would say the same can be said for games and the media used to play them.

3XXXDDD
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NomadArtisan wrote:The ways

oops. double post.

3XXXDDD
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NomadArtisan wrote:The ways

NomadArtisan wrote:
The ways you're thinking of using transparency could be just as easily achieved by placing one card on top of another and staggering them so that the information you want displayed on lower cards still remains visible while using up minimal table space.

I think that, unless there's no way to achieve the mechanics you want without transparency, transparency becomes more of a gimmick instead of an intertwined aspect of the game.

Swiftest and direct kick I've ever felt. However this does enlighten to me a few things, Transparent cards should both conceal some information as well as reveal other information at the same time otherwise as noted by yourself, it's no different than stacking cards underneath with the additional information just further down.

Quote:
I would also ask about any card game that would absolutely need transparency in order to work, why not just make it digital? Digital media would readily lend itself to this sort of thing.

I honestly have no idea about this. I'm just replying here I'm taking the mention of it into consideration.

NomadArtisan
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I hope I didn't come off

I hope I didn't come off negative, I just wanted to mention the disadvantages I saw.

Also, If you want hidden information too, you can still go the route of staggering cards and have whatever you want hidden to be located higher up on the card.

GreenO
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Hecatomb

You might want to check out Hecatomb, a now defunct CCG from Wizards of the Coast:

"Cards feature four clear edges, with scores for power and abilities on the fifth edge. Players can create frightening creature hybrids called Abominations by stacking cards on top of each other. Each Abomination combines the powers and special abilities of all the creatures used to assemble it. The clear edges allow players to see the total power scores and abilities of up to 5 cards stacked together."

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/17526/hecatomb

Genuinely innovative, with a nasty theme that reduced the potential player base I would think. that said, 'stitching monsters together into horrific abominations' does fit the mechanisms well.

3XXXDDD
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NomadArtisan wrote:I hope I

NomadArtisan wrote:
I hope I didn't come off negative, I just wanted to mention the disadvantages I saw.

Sorry, you misunderstand me. I was ecstatic that you pointed it out to me. (Although, I now see JustActCasual also said something similar, so apologies to flicking over his reply)

NomadArtisan wrote:
Also, If you want hidden information too, you can still go the route of staggering cards and have whatever you want hidden to be located higher up on the card.

Well I'm not sure if that will always work, taking the Dress Up game as an example. Granted, that could work better in a manner to Gloom.

I did have one person mention to me they could use a wheel inside the card to switch between hidden and revealed information. Sounds like an excellent HP counter.

GreenO wrote:
You might want to check out Hecatomb, a now defunct CCG from Wizards of the Coast

I've actually been looking into that, though I wanted to see the cards for myself the shipping seems a bit too expensive to get where I am.

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