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turn system

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mindwarper10
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Joined: 06/13/2010

In my card game (wich is a political/economy/war game) there are rounds (where all players turns together make a round, as many actions rely on the round, not just the turn), then there is the turn. The turn is where each player will play their cards.
Each round the players will roll a 20 sided di, this will determine their cards speed, all cards have a speed. The closer the cards speed is to the number, the sooner it will take action.
since each card must be placed on the game mat/board and multiple cards can be placed on the same spot, the speed determines the order of action on the spot, for example, one player has played say a gold mine, two workers, and a soldier, then another player moves a soldier into that position, the soldier with the faster speed attacks first (obviously the gold mine and workers would only interact if say, they tried working with an enemy in their position.)
most of the board the players can not just throw a card on(for now this only applies to unit cards, not cards that affect economy/government, and not unit cards that "create" neutral structures, such as a goldmine), they each must start at their position, or in their "town" area (currently I am thinking a small 6 card area) where they must move into the battle field (only special cards may move into or affect an enemies town)
The only problem that I am having, what happens when two cards have the same speed rating? say one player rolls a 5 and another a 10, but the cards in the same spot have a speed of 4 and 9 respectivly, so they would each have a speed of 1 and go before any other speeds (except a speed of 0 of course)
Would it be best to have each card act at the same time? (example one card simply destroys another card, and the three other cards, who amazingly have the same speed as this card are all military units, would one unit just die, and the other two deal damage, and possibly kill eachother?)

Avianfoo
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Joined: 01/31/2012
Why d20?

It's a cute way of figuring out initiative but wouldn't it be faster to use random tokens that you flip onto the cards from a bag? How is using abs(d20 - card initiative) different from using say d10 + card initiative?

As to what would make a good tie breaker, a good one is if you can quantify who is winning and have him go last. If you can't then maybe a "first player token" and simply break ties where first player takes precedence followed by players to the left. Could even have a special Title in game which could do this and you have to do something to gain that title.

mindwarper10
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Joined: 06/13/2010
something broke in my mind...

I like the larger odds for mor varying speeds. With less numbers the d10 has too close of a range, thus less variety. and having it plus the cards initiative is too...standard? I guess.
With my d20 system, even if you roll over you still have to be close.
say a player rolls a 5, and a card has a speed of 10, thats 5 away so the speed is effectively 5.

I dont care too much for the "winner is the loser" type of system, and I suppose I could use the first player first thing, for some reason that didnt cross my mind (guess I freaked when I though "oh noes their teh same!" definantly makes there be more order to the game...especially since right now, thers more out of turn playing than on turn playing (which is slowly changing mind you.)

I really like that title Idea, Im gonna have to think on that, and ways to implement it(assuming I do use it...which I might).

BlueRift
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Joined: 04/01/2012
A Question

I hope you don't mind but I have a question. Why have different speed values on cards if the D20 determines the initiative? I ask because each speed has very similar chances of occurring.

Any speed rating isn't much better than another because a speed rating of 2 has an equal chance of being 1 off as a speed rating of 10 (It does have a different probability of being 2 or more off but hopefully you get my point).

You might do better with the sum of two dice (say d6's) that gives you a roughly normal distribution. That way cards with speed 7 would be better than cards with speed 3 because 7's are more common than 3's would be in that distribution.

If you were to keep it the way you have it, this could be a way of breaking ties in that whoever has the lower/higher initiative number wins.

mindwarper10
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Joined: 06/13/2010
mindwarper does not mind

okay so I had two paragraphs worth of answers (all split up nice and neat) as to the reason portaining to my choice...go figure someone decided to do some cleaning, fudged my internet, and I had no clue my internet was out, so I pushed preview...and lost my answers.(When college is over...I will be the happiest person ever)
instead of typing all that out again (while better explaining, its too much and Im way to mad to redo it all) ill give you a hyper shortened version.

simply put, your question is my best answer, each speed has a very similiar chances of occuring, its based on what you roll.
each card is going to have different speed, regardless of being the same card. Each card will have a speed based on how close it is to the roll, these speeds might be changed based on cards or abilities of the troop or other cards. the closer the speed of the card to the roll, the better. while each players turn is decided on the d20, each card is not, (hey whoever shoots first kills the other guy right?well not always of course) each card does not HAVE to act/react, but the same card will not always be faster.
I dont want a "roughly normal distribution"

I dont know why I didnt think of the second idea...thats a big duh...

please give more criticism, the more likings/disliking of my idea(s) gives to more improvements of the game!

KAndrw
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Joined: 08/20/2008
Doing the maths on the fly

Doing the maths on the fly might be a bit of a chore, especially when a bunch of cards are involved. What about doing it slightly differently, and printing a set of six initiative numbers down each card's side, each in a different colour. Then instead of rolling a d20, roll a D6 with coloured sides.

The colour rolled determines which initiative value is used on every card (with higher being first), so the players only have to key their brains into one piece of information - the cards can then be sorted by initiative without having to subtract and remember.

The nice thing is that you could actually have your initiatives be completely unique within each colour - eg use a three digit number for initiative, and make sure that the same number does not appear in the red squares for any two cards. You'd also be able to have cards that would be low initiative most of the time, but 1/6th of the time would be really high initiative. Like a solar-powered death tank (great on sunny days, not so good if most of every week is overcast).

mindwarper10
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Joined: 06/13/2010
Actually I kinda like that

Actually I kinda like that idea, and I was just thinking about how tedious it might be for some people to constantly work out the math, especially since right now almost everything is unlimited, you can almost have infinite units, a player can almost take unlimited actions, I dont have a limit to how many cards are held

Right now I have players starting with 5 cards.
a players unit limit is only limited by a population level, which starts at 5, and is raised by housing cards placed in the city zone (which is currently essentially basically(wow me) a 6 card zone that allows up to 3 cards per zone.)

should I start a new topic for this?
I also want to know about limiting a players actions, one of the ways a player can win is by covering the main area (the world map) with cards and having no condending spaces, if they got extra drawing and used all military cards, they could quickly cover the board (no card takes effect/can be used the moment it is played unless it specifically states on the card, meaning they would have to wait.)
also all cards that move (military or not) can only move one space per turn as an action, and cannot attack on the same turn they move (each card can only take one action in a turn, any special abilities included)
but with the ability to possibly create so many units on the board, while only having the power of number, I kinda wanted the player to only have a limited number of actions themselves, like each card played is an action, each building that doesnt automatically generate resources might take an action to generate resources, each unit taking an action is an action for the player, each time the player makes a treaty on a turn uses an action, or trades or sells cards uses an action.
Im not sure about using "action points", and if I used action points, how many would I give each player, and maybe having certain cards might increase action points?

also another question,
each player can be "thrown out of power", each player has a standing, theres the base standing and power standing, currently this starts out(and looks) like this 100/50
the base standing may rise and fall from certain cards, this is basically what your population thinks of you, if this drops to zero your people will riot, and you will have to raise it above your population level to stop the rioting, each turn during a riot your poplation level deals damage to your power standing, if this ever falls to zero you are thrown out of power, this is not game over unless there is only one player left who does not have riots and is still in power. you can restore yourself to power, but it requires you to increase your power standing to at least 20, and your base standing also must be at least 20. There are certain cards that can be played when you are out of power (most are cards such as pirates or the likes (ie bad cards)). if there are no players left in good standing, all players lose (the game goes to Anarchy, which is against the working title of the game, an end to Anarchy) each player also discards all owned cards from the table and their hands, except up to 3 cards, and then reshuffle their deck (without their discarded cards)
I wanted to know what people thought about this, should this change?

also I guess ill go ahead and say it, I have a simple resources, money and materials, is this okay?
I mean with simple generation, players might create a surplus (could this also be a victory?)
could there be upkeep?
should there be a cap?
this also relates back to masses amount of actions per turn.

KAndrw
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Joined: 08/20/2008
My preference as a player

My preference as a player would be that if the game emphasises masses of actions per turn, you should strip out everything else - as much as possible. At the moment, it sounds like you have too many competing mechanics. Not only does this make it difficult to learn, it makes it much harder to balance.

mindwarper10
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Joined: 06/13/2010
your preference counts

(as if a card game can be balanced, kekeke....I got it...ill shut up now)
That seems to be wherein my problem lies, its obviously not ment to be simple, anyone can see that, but it cant be TOO tough to learn.
I think, personally, its more that the mechanics are incomplete rather than too many, too complicated, or too conflicting.

and my biggest problem that I dont like is, while players like to do as much as they can in a turn, it may cause boredom and slow down the game, which is why I want to somewhat limit it (I dont want to alltogether say "NO, bad player, no big armies, no amazing strategies, NO! you wait like everyone else!" but I dont want everyone to get bored waiting for the other players. and I know there will be turtle players, who build large defenses AGAINST EVERYTHING, and there will be moderate players who are either undecisive (which may get them destroyed by aggressive players as it stands) or slowly progress as the assess EVERYTHING...im somewhat in between moderate assessment and turtle...depending on the game (except magic the gathering, my decks tend to emphasis the low cost cards that produce their own strength, and tend to drain on and destroy the opponents summons, and sometimes heal me depending on the deck, rather than some buffed up big ol' baddy(i like cards that you can throw out afew mana each turn and get stronger), or reliance on possible strategies that may or may not come toyour hand...
(and could you please tell me where the conflicting mechanics are? I dont see them, I must be blind to my own bias or hopes or...well I may just be blind...would be much appreciated, just from what ive given you its nice to see someone spot flaws)

KAndrw
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Joined: 08/20/2008
Perhaps I just am not taking

Perhaps I just am not taking an accurate view of the game from your posts. I've come away with no clear impression of how it works, but it at least involves playing cards, area control, battle and the development of economy. Again, pure supposition, but it doesn't seem like any of them is the focus - you've talked about all as though they're equally represented.

Do you have a rules outline you can post, or is this still all just in your head?

mindwarper10
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Joined: 06/13/2010
yeah Ill post what I have in

yeah Ill post what I have in the morning, (its late now and Ive had a rough day)
its not much, just a rough idea ive got, only the mechanics, no cards obviously (I know some people start working on cards early, but I cant, im a mechanics kinda guy, the mechanics come first, i love breaking things down to see how they work, and the more complicated something is the more giddy I get)

buy yeah you have the pretty muchly right, all are equally important, what area you control is slightly less important depending on the cards on the field or the players victory goal. It could be more or less important for the player. economy is important in the fact that, your population has "feelings" and your growth is required for more playing ability, cards cost money or materials or both to be played.

Economy/war/political card game
An end to anarchy – working title
1-infinite players (oh yeah!)
20 sided die

Each game consists of a round, which is all players turns, a turn is when it is a players time to take action.
A player may take action based on resources.
Money, material, enlistment, population, and standings.
A player may have an infinite amount of money and material, but enlistment may never be greater than population, and population while infinite, can never be higher than his population level, which starts at population level 5, but can be changed by cards played (such as “military housing”, “hostel”, “apartment complex” or similar cards)
Standings is government based, a player starts with a standing of 100/200,the first number is dynamic, it may change according to cards and actions this standing number is called “base standing”, if the base standing ever reaches zero, the population begins revolting dealing damage equal to population to the “life points” at the end of each round, the second number is in essence a player’s “life points” this is called “power standing”, if the power standing ever reaches zero he gets thrown out of power. If a players base standing ever increased above the population level, than they stop revolting
If a player ever is thrown out of power , he must instantly discard all cards in his hand, reshuffle his deck (but do not add discarded cards) and may draw up to 4 cards.
Certain cards (such as “privateer” or “Sealand’s law” ) may be played by a player who is thrown out of power, those cards are marked with a “ (flag for out of power cards) “. A player may return to power if he can return to a standing of at least 10/50, in which case the player may choose to return to power on any of his turns after.
If all players except for one are out of power, than the remaining player wins, as long as his people are not revolting.(this rule does not apply in a single player game.)
If there are no players in power, than the game ends in Anarchy, all players lose. (if players are keeping score this counts as losing with 0 economy, thus a score of zero)

Starting resources
Money 10, materials 5, populations level 3, standing 100/200, hand of 5 cards.
TURNS
Each player rolls the d20 at the beginning of the round, this becomes their turn rating, each cards speed is compared to how close it is to the turn rating. The higher rolls go first, if multiple players roll the same, they keep their original roll to compare to the cards, and keep rolling until the turn order is decisive.
Example
Player 1 rolls a 15, and 2 rolls a 18
A card with a speed of 14 is 1 step away of 15, this means that it gets an order of 1 if is player 1’s card, and an order of 4 if it is player 2’s card.
For now lets assume it is player 1’s card.
Player two’s card has a speed of 19, which is one step away from 18, meaning it also has an order of 1.

ACTIONS
After learning their turn rating the first player begins his round he may play any cards he has the money and material for or take action with any card he has placed the turn before, actions consist of gaining resources, moving cards with movement, attacking, or applying card effects.
Any action taken with another card in the square that can affect that card (such as troops leaving a square with enemy troops) must first check the opposing cards effective turn rating before taking action, if the owning player does not wish to take action against the player whose turn it is, than the original action takes place normally.
Example in one space there are 5 cards, three of them are troops, on of them are johns, and two of them are Susan’s, on Johns turn if he decides to do anything with his one troop, than since Susan owns two troops their, the turn rating must take effect, Susans two cards have turn ratings of 5 and 2, Johns card has the turn rating of 3, he has decided to retreat, meaning susans 2 attacks, if the card is not destroyed, than John has successfully retreated. If John had decided to attack, then the order of attack would have been 2,3,5.
Notice the other 2 cards had no say in what happened, they were not troops, and had no effect on the troops actions.
No card takes action on the turn it was played unless the card specifically says it does.
No card can take more than one action unless it specifically says it does.
All troop card can only attack in the space they are already in, unless specifically stated as “range:” on the card.
Players may also take the following actions
Make a treaty/alliance/pact; players may negotiate in any manner as to what each give and take from alliances and treaties.
Players may trade/sell/buy other players cards that are in play or their own cards with a “(flag for trading in hand) ” symbol can be traded without being in play, any card exchanged in this way (assuming they were already in play) may be placed in the new owners town as if just played, regardless if it belongs in the town, this card is considered just played and cannot take action, even if it normally could have. The next turn these card must be correctly put into play. Cards traded from hand go into the new owners hand.

Victory and Defeat conditions
A player is defeated under these conditions,
1) Annihilated: Player has no cards remaining able to take action or be played, and no cards left in deck. Cards in town do not count.
2) Organized: All players have been removed from power, or all but one player has been removed from power and this remaining player does not have a revolt.
3) World Domination Any one player is the only player with cards in every slot on the world map, and there are no other cards aside from neutral cards on the world map that do not belong to this one player, is automatically victorious
4) Magnificence: A player has had a wonder visible to all players in his town for 5 turns
Subjugation: Additionally to any victory/defeat condition; if there are any remaining players in power, but they are under any treaties/alliances/pacts that force them to act as another player wants them, or are only in these treaties as the other player has the means to Annihilate the player, than if there is only one remaining player who is not under revolt effects, and is still in power, he or she wins.

this is just what I have so far.

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