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No luck- Giant Mech Game

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Troy Boy
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Each team has 12 Mech-like units each having a vary degree of low attack and high defense.

To attack, one unit "leads" against a target. All friendly mechs that can fire in, will do so. Thus they combine their attack strength and if it beats the defense of the target it is destroyed.

No dice, just strategic positioning.

It will play on a hex board.

Troy Boy
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Official rules thus far

Rules:

All units start off the board.
Each turn you may choose one of two commands:

1)Move two of your units
OR
2)Move one of your units and make an attack.

Option 1
You may move one or two units from off the board onto the board. Their movement starts on one of the deployment zones on your given side. You may also move one or two units already on the board. Whether they come from off the board or are already on the board after moving two units your turn is over.

Option 2
You must move a unit already on the board. After moving, that unit will lead an attack. After the attack your turn is over.

Moving
Each unit has a Move value associated with them. That unit may move up to that many spaces on their turn. They may not move over any unit or terrain (such as walls, rocks, water, etc) unless they have an ability which allows them to do so.

Attacking
When choosing Option 2 you may make an attack. If the unit just moved has a “clear shot” on an opponent’s unit it will lead in an attack. Add together the Offense value of the leading unit plus the Offensive value of any unit you control who also has a clear shot to the target. If the combined Offensive value is greater than the target’s Defensive value, it is destroyed and removed from play. Otherwise the target is unaffected by the attack.

A Clear Shot
To determine if a unit has a clear shot or not use this principle: If an line can be drawn from the center of the attacking unit’s hex to the center of the target’s hex, without passing through a hex housing another unit or terrain, it is considered a clear shot.

ElKobold
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Sounds nice.

One thing though. Having minimum luck is not always a benefit. This comes from someone who's last 2 prototypes had almost zero luck :)

You risk analysis-paralysis and make your game less attractive to new players.
I believe this can be slightly modified with command&colors-style mechanics, or something similar, to add a tiny bit of luck, while streamlining player choices.

Check out this video by Richard Garfield - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av5Hf7uOu-o
Kinda allowed me to look at the luck/rng from a different angle.

Good luck!

Troy Boy
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Thanks for the insight!

Thanks for the insight!

radioactivemouse
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Curious

Why would you want to make a game with no luck?

Chordcommander
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The guy who invented chess

The guy who invented chess seems to have had some success at least ;)

I have the same opinion on that topic generally: I also tried to design no luck games thinking that that woud increase strategy/importance of choices, but in reality it doesn't. You won't have these stories to tell about your games when something happened against all odds. You won't have the players to take into account that some things can go wrong (like attacks missing etc.).
There are no luck games that work, but I think a lot of game profit from at least some luck mechanics.

radioactivemouse
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About chess...

Chordcommander wrote:
The guy who invented chess seems to have had some success at least ;)

I have the same opinion on that topic generally: I also tried to design no luck games thinking that that woud increase strategy/importance of choices, but in reality it doesn't. You won't have these stories to tell about your games when something happened against all odds. You won't have the players to take into account that some things can go wrong (like attacks missing etc.).
There are no luck games that work, but I think a lot of game profit from at least some luck mechanics.

Actually...the origins of Chess go back to a game called Chaturanga, which was a hindu game that had 4 players on an 8x8 board and used an oblong die (an elongated 6 sided die) to determine which player moved. In addition, it was heavily used in gambling until Hindu laws forbade all dice-based games.

So even chess had random element in its origins. It took hundreds of years as well as the printing press to solidify the rules and even then, it was still tested and adjusted to what it is today.

If you have several hundred years to perfect a no-luck game, then by all means, go for it. But if you want to pull in new players and not alienate them when the expert gamers emerge, then you probably want to introduce some kind of luck element.

Chordcommander
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@radioactivemouse: I was not

@radioactivemouse:
I was not 100% serious about my post regarding the "chess designer". But while I think that there are some games, that work without luck (it would be kind of strange to roll in chess if your quenn manages to kill the king - funny that it somehow was like this, didn't know it ;))I'm on your side - for most games introducing some randomnes is a good thing.

Troy Boy
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I appreciate the input. I

I appreciate the input.

I fear the game would lack some "excitement" if it was just another dice rolling table top :/

Though I have been torn between making it no luck and having it be a game with some luck. I'll explain: Most mechs have an attack of 1 or 2. The luck mechanic would be simple, for each attack value you have roll a d6. On a 4 or lower it counts as a hit. If the total hits equals their defense they are destroyed.

I can easily see, at this point, the game being played both ways.

ElKobold
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Troy Boy wrote:I appreciate

Troy Boy wrote:
I appreciate the input.

I fear the game would lack some "excitement" if it was just another dice rolling table top :/


There's HUGE amount of different ways to use dice.

Troy Boy wrote:

Though I have been torn between making it no luck and having it be a game with some luck. I'll explain: Most mechs have an attack of 1 or 2. The luck mechanic would be simple, for each attack value you have roll a d6. On a 4 or lower it counts as a hit. If the total hits equals their defense they are destroyed.
I can easily see, at this point, the game being played both ways.

I'm pretty sure a more "euro" style approach to dice will benefit your game more.

I.e not Choose Action -> Roll to see if you succeed
rather Roll dice -> See which actions you can select

I.e. you can have a dice roll decide what "type" of mech you can activate based on type of mech, or type of weapon or the terrain tile the mech is currently on. E.t.c.

Don't just slap the dice on top - think how to do it, while adding more depth to your game.

Good luck!

veyDer
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Unit cards or global effects

You could introduce unit cards to represent mechs and stack them in the Mech Deck. This way you could restrict and randomize the set of mechs that are allowed to enter the battlefield.

Or you could have a deck of "weather" or some other kind of global effect cards and slightly alter the game conditions (each turn?)

I'm not saying that you do need to include a lot of randomization. But a little option for luck here and there could add a bit of a flavour to the game.

radioactivemouse
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ideas...

Troy Boy wrote:
I appreciate the input.

I fear the game would lack some "excitement" if it was just another dice rolling table top :/

Though I have been torn between making it no luck and having it be a game with some luck. I'll explain: Most mechs have an attack of 1 or 2. The luck mechanic would be simple, for each attack value you have roll a d6. On a 4 or lower it counts as a hit. If the total hits equals their defense they are destroyed.

I can easily see, at this point, the game being played both ways.

Your assessment of "another dice rolling tabletop" is kinda off. You can introduce tons of "luck" like elements while keeping your game highly strategic. In fact, having no luck opens up the possibility of mastery; one strategy would dominate over all and new players could be discouraged by more experienced players.

You could introduce cards. Each attack has a specific numerical value, then both players place a card down form their hand (see Cosmic Encounter and Blood Rage). After both have placed down, they reveal. The base attack plus the value on the revealed card is the total attack; whomever has the higher attack is the winner. Some lower value cards can have special abilities (i.e. a +1 can also be used "in addition" to another card played).

You can also try a lottery, but modified. Have your attack be chits, but have obstacles be chits as well (building, trees, etc.)...add in "agility" for the other player, put all chits in a bag, and then pull. It would certainly give the appearance of luck, but accounts for barriers.

I dunno...just some ideas you can use that's not dice rolling. Good luck in your design.

gilamonster
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I'm going to be difficult and

I'm going to be difficult and argue for a game with no random elements. Not that the points for including randomness are invalid, or that I dislike games with random elements, but nonetheless I do also enjoy games with no element of chance. And so do others, despite the potential entry barrier - there are many other very popular strategy games with no randomness besides chess (which I do like), and chess-like games (shogi, chinese chess and most modern fairy chess games). Here is a list of a few, most of which have very simple rules, and are structurally so simple that it is probable that they did not require many years of refinement:

Hive, Go, Reversi, draughts/checkers, halma/chinese checkers, surukarta, nine-man's morris/twelve man's morris, go-moku and four in a row-like games, the jungle game, fox-and-geese (and similar games), hex, and abalone

Regarding the entry-barrier to new players in a luckless game, it is possible to introduce a handicapping system (like in Go) or players can just try to find someone on roughly their own level to play against and so improve their skill. And random elements are no guarantee of a low entry barrier to new players - I would argue that complexity of the rules of play is often a much greater one. And incorporating too much luck will undoubtedly decrease the staying power of a game; I can think of at least one eurogame which we seldom play any more because once the (quite simple) tactics are mastered, it is essentially the roll of the dice which settle who wins. There's a definite tradeoff (you have to reward skill, and reward it sufficiently to get players to keep coming back).

So what I'm saying is that adding random elements is not necessarily the only way of achieving the practical results mentioned. Games with a certain balance of skill and luck are currently fashionable (I use this word hesitantly, because there are good practical reasons for this) but I don't believe that there is only one correct approach. I see a game as a work of art, and people have different tastes in art - some like sculpture, some prefer oil paintings, others music. From an aesthetic point of view, I'd love to see more boardgames without random factors being made - I personally like the challenge of gradually improving my skill and tactics, over years if necessary, and knowing that my victory is completely by my own skill. And some of best of these games will possibly outlast many (though not all) eurogames by centuries.

But if the question is "what sort of game will be easiest to sell at present", then I will concede a game with some elements of chance will probably be a better bet.

ElKobold
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gilamonster wrote:once the

gilamonster wrote:
once the (quite simple) tactics are mastered, it is essentially the roll of the dice which settle who wins.

The problem here is not in the presence or absence of luck, but in the lack of tactical choice.

In fact, if the said game would have no dice, the result would be worse: whoever does that 'winning strategy' first, wins the game full stop. In which case, there's no reason to play, whatsoever.

With dice, your plans can at least go wrong, forcing you to adapt and thus, keeping the suspense, since you don't know who will win.

P.S: Have you watched the video I've posted above?

gilamonster
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I haven't watched the video

I haven't watched the video yet, but I will when I am able to - I think that a friend at work who is also a boardgame fanatic recommended it to me as well - is it is the one where he suggests something to the effect that chance should change your tactical options, rather than potentially giving you a strong advantage or disadvantage relative to the other players? (That is an idea which I completely agree with, and the "best" reason for including them from my aesthetic viewpoint).

However, I don't deny your point; adding random elements can be a sound way of "patching" or increasing the interest-value of a game which would otherwise have a clear winning strategy and thus be pointless. I even once suggested using randomized turn order every two moves in chess as a possible way of postponing the death of the game (at least on the highest level) through the complete analysis of the game tree by computers. But for me, personally, that is a second-best approach, especially if you want to design a working game without luck.

I do still believe (and hope) that it is possible to create a good game which has relatively simple rules, and no random elements during play, but which allows sufficient complexity to not have an obvious winning strategy and make it interesting enough to human players, and perhaps to cause computer programmers some trouble for a few months or years at least before solving it completely. It is one of the things which I would like to do before I die, but I digress.

So, to return the discussion to the original poster's game, I'd personally play-test it extensively without any random elements, and get it as close to the point where it is playable and fun, then add in random elements if necessary or desirable, and re-test. Rules of thumb and general design principles are good and save a lot of time, especially for beginner designers, but adhering to them blindly and without testing whether they are applicable can be limiting at best (it is actually bad practice in engineering, if done mindlessly). But that is just my opinion, and I do lack experience in the field of game design.

PS. For obvious reasons, I wouldn't regard a degree of randomization of the start condition (as in chess960 or laying out obstacles randomly on the board) in quite the same catagory as random elements during play.

Midnight_Carnival
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this discussion looks like fun, mind if I throw my 2c worth in?

I love random stuff and I've argued that being able to account for bad luck, unpredictable variation and the unexpected is what seperates good stragegy from straight out calculation.
I'm not aruging that you should include random elements here, in fact even I have begun to get sick of the "let's see how many pretty polyhedral "fairy" dice we can cram into a simple game" type I've seen churned out these days.

I'm really sorry but I have nothing to suggest regarding your no luck mech game, I admire you for getting down to making one but I have no idea how you'd do this. I also have no opinions on your game idea except this insight I'd like to share with you. People like 'linear deterministic strategy' games (ones where all the game elements are there from the begining and nothing new is added, where the rules are set and all the exceptions are known and where there are no random elements - basically games like chess) because they like to take them too seriously and turn them into an intelectual measuring contest. I like mechs and I think that you will be able to make a mech game which is buckets of fun, but I also think that if you didn't know this already, I should caution you that if your game is good and especially if it's fun to play, you are going to get people who take it way to seriously, people who write tomes and grimoires on the finer points of the game and people who get no enjoyment out of playing it other than treating it as a competitive sport, the sort of person who goes through the rule books with a fine tooth comb looking for any sort of techinicality they can use to win the game. People who study your game for years and become experts in it regardless of how well they play.
If you want this, if this, if this sort of attention would make you feel like you have achieved something then I wish you well and I'm damn sure the game you make will become a huge success. If you don't want this and you make the game well then your game will still be a success, you'll still attract a cult following and people will worship you.
But a warning, a small shadow in all that golden light; there is a small possiblity that you might one day find yourself in a possition where the game you made, which made your rich and famous, which people love, has somehow grown into something you don't find fun to play. One day you might be watching the world championships of your very own game in Korea online and you might feel vomit rising in the back of your throat. This wouldn't be becasue you didn't include random elements, this would be because people are disgusting and tend to forget that games were made to have fun.
I can have fun playing chess, some people can't and most believe that if you want to make it to the world championships you shouldn't have any fun.
That's just my worthless opinion.
Best of luck with the game.

ElKobold
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Midnight_Carnival wrote:Wow

Midnight_Carnival wrote:

Wow and I thought I was being negative. Cheer up! :)

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