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Steampunk "dungeon crawl" tentatively named "London Underground."

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Zag24
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Joined: 03/02/2014

I was having a discussion on BGG about someone else's plans to design a dungeon crawl type of cooperative game. He wanted to discuss the merits of fixed map vs. random map (via tile placement), for a game that has a story and a goal (i.e. HeroQuest).

My primary thesis was that it is hard to get a real story arc with random placement, unless your random placement was relatively irrelevant to the story. If the random placement is significant, then it's hard to keep a real story arc without the random placement interfering in possibly-ruinous ways. If it isn't relevant, then it doesn't actually contribute to replayability, so why bother.

I think that Betrayal at House on the Hill mixes these fairly well, with the three floors and a few rooms that become significant. But the randomness of the layout does not have much impact on the missions. Occasionally the closeness of a key room might make some of the side aspects easy or hard, which could indirectly impact the real mission, but it isn't super significant. (I'm thinking here of the rooms that enable you to heal, or improve an attribute.)

The other issue I have with Betrayal's approach is that you're going to get the next appropriate room in the stack, whether you go left or right out of the current room. Other than going up or down stairs, your choice doesn't really matter.

Anyway, in the course of discussing it, I came up with a mechanic that I really like: It allows for a good story arc; the player's choices do matter, at least somewhat, giving them some real control; and I think that the game will have some very good replayability. (I'm not actually far enough along to do anything more than some solo playtesting including a lot of pretending, so this last point is a bit of faith.)

Then I thought about the game and the theme, and I thought, "Does the world really need yet another Medieval Fantasy Dungeon Crawl?" To which the answer is, "Not really." I tried re-theming the game to be SteamPunk rather than Medieval Fantasy, and I find that the mechanic works even better!

So I'm finally getting to my question for which I'd like some feedback. Is there any interest in a SteamPunk-themed co-op game that is similar in feel to a dungeon crawl? I've looked around a bit, but haven't found anything -- is there already something like this that I've missed? If you like Dungeon Crawls, would you find the theme significant? Or would you just think that this is yet another that somebody re-themed.

Oddly enough, I mostly avoid co-op games, due to the 'alpha player' effect. I do think that this game would suffer somewhat from that problem, and I haven't addressed that, yet, but I plan to, or at least hope to. Any thoughts in this direction would also be much appreciated.

If you've read this far and you're still interested, here are my notes on the game (and on every other game I'm working on): http://zag.wikidot.com/dungeon-crawl

Zag24
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Joined: 03/02/2014
Nobody?

If this didn't interest you, or did but only partially, could you tell me why?

1. Co-op?
2. Dungeon crawl-ish?
3. Final boss focused?
4. Steampunk?

Toa Lewa
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Joined: 10/31/2013
Cool Idea

I read through your notes, and I think you are on to a really cool idea! Why limit yourself to fantasy, I say go for the SteamPunk theme. I really like your idea of increasing the darkness as you progress, and I like how bosses become more powerful in dark areas. Good luck!

TheKeyLosers
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Joined: 11/14/2013
As someone who loves

As someone who loves steampunk games, the game at present doesn't sound too different mechanically from the standard dungeon crawler game I would typically avoid.

The "Darkness" thing is thematically interesting but it sounds a bit too much just like a level cap. It might be fun with the right artwork but I don't see much of a "story arc" the way it is described at the moment (at least, not as much as I'd want, but I am very big on story in my games, especially when the strategy element isn't particularly big).

Zag24
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Joined: 03/02/2014
Thanks!

Thanks for the feedback.

I do think that, if you tend to avoid dungeon crawlers, then this might not appeal to you. However, since you say that you particularly like steampunk, what are you looking for in a game that really says 'steampunk' to you?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say that the Darkness thing sounds like a level cap. I don't know if I've described it poorly or if I don't understand what you mean by a level cap, but I don't think it is the same at all.

The Darkness doesn't affect the players at all (which is what I think of as a level cap). It determines which encounters and rewards will be used for a particular room.

Here's how I see the mechanic coming into play from the player's point of view, which I'll describe with an example game with a reasonably experienced player guiding.

Ok, we only have an hour to play, so let's choose the Mad Scientist quest, which says 45-60 minutes. His traits are Electric and Magnetic, so we expect to see more of those types of encounters. His appearance criteria is (d6 + Turn Number) > 16 so we're safe until turn 10, but we'd better be into the darker sections of the underground by turn 7 or we'll never get the gear we need to beat him.

With Magnetic ability, he probably has some serious mind control. The sheet on this boss suggests that you include either the Grenadier or the Master of Electricity in the party -- that's because the Grenadier has a sonic bomb that doesn't do much damage but does snap people out of mind control, and the Master of Electricity has a shock ability that has the same effect, but better controlled. Bob wants to play a Mesmerist, he'll be using his own mind control effects, so the sonic bombs will hurt us as much as help us. I'll take the Master of Electricity and I'll be in charge of breaking any mind control on us.

I also have a lightning rod ability that will help protect us all from electric damage. However, most of my offense is lightning-based, which won't affect electrical creatures at all. So, Anne, do you want to take something that can just flat out deal damage? How about a Big Game Hunter or a Musketeer?

For a basic strategy, we should try to stay around 8 Darkness until we gear up enough to handle the tougher encounters. We'll need, at the least, some better electric protection and some more damage output. Around turn 7 or 8 we need to head as dark as we can, and hope to get lucky. We'll need to pick up some top tier gear before he shows up on turn 12 or so.

TheKeyLosers
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Joined: 11/14/2013
I'm not against all

I'm not against all dungeon-crawlers, but I am not drawn to them by default. It depends on how much of a crossover you're looking for the game to be. If you like the standard dungeon crawler, nice art/minis etc. seem to be enough, but I am interested more in mechanics and/or story. Assault on Doomrock is a similar experience but it looks like it is handled elegantly.

Combining steampunk and dungeon-crawler is a bit difficult because "steampunk" is all about the emergent technologies and machineries, while dungeons are typically as far outside of technology as you can get.

This could be a fun game to play, but it sounds like a standard fantasy setting with some of the elemental spells renamed to something slightly more appropriate.

"Level cap" may have been the wrong word, but it sounds like an artifical way to scale the game in place of standard RPG levelling to give the game a more structured pace, if I'm not mistaken?

Zag24
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Joined: 03/02/2014
Good points

I agree that this game has less steampunk feel to it than I would like. I've made many of the gear be improvements to current gear, rather than just replacements, but that is really window dressing. Any suggestions for improvement would be very welcome.

I do plan for this not to be a "dungeon" so much as a buried city, but that's just artwork. I used the phrase 'dungeon crawl' as a shortcut for people here to understand the basic play style, but I wouldn't use it generally. I totally agree that, for this to succeed, the artwork has to be really great.

I've considered changing the "Darkenss" term to something else, but nothing else that I've thought of really works. I do think it is a little more than artificial scaling, because the players have some amount of control over it. But other than that minor quibble, I agree with your issue. That mechanic idea was the original impetus to designing this game, that the game board is built from tiles, but the players' choice of where to go actually matters.

Thanks for the tip about Assault on Doomrock. It looks like it has a similar feel. I'll have to see if I can borrow a copy somewhere.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your thoughtful feedback. It's really great, even (especially, perhaps) if some of it is discouraging.

xaeromancer
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Joined: 06/15/2014
Nice gears with a few loose teeth

I like the idea of the Darkness, especially if you add torches and lanterns into the mix. You could allow parties to risk greater rewards or rush to the boss if they move in darkness, while those who carry a light beneath earth could move more safely, but have to go further to find what they are looking for.

The idea of the traits is interesting as well, but seems a bit arbitrary. Still, that's what second drafts are for. Maybe reduce them to fewer types? Gravity, Magnetism and Electricity are a bit a unified field. These are pretty much window dressing, as you could have different traits for different versions: Magic, Demonic and Monstrous for fantasy or Tech, Radiation and Alien for sci-fi.

The mechanic for quests is good as well. I like the idea of searching for a specific room in a random dungeon that meets the conditions. Similarly, looking for the bosses should be interesting.

On the whole, it seems to cleave to the strengths of computer based procedurally created dungeon crawlers, like Diablo and Torchlight. Good work, and I'll look forward to it progressing.

PS
Transport For London would probably have a field day with title.

MarkD1733
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Joined: 07/05/2014
SteamPunk Underground Crawl

I like it. I think there is something Arkham Horror-ish for sure, but I think you can do something different. Letters from Whitechapel has a focus on Jack the Ripper which might add to this inspiration. Also, thinking along the "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" you might some some additional characters or character-types to model the game for an London Underground Hunt. Good luck with this theme!

Zag24
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Joined: 03/02/2014
Thanks!

Thanks a lot for the feedback. It really helps just to know that there are people who like the concept.

sedjtroll
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Joined: 07/21/2008
Love the title

I have not read your post or anything, but I did want to say that I really like the title of your game, I think it fits the theme nicely!

TedW
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Joined: 08/10/2014
I read your overview - it

I read your overview - it sounds very interesting.
I like your steampunk theme and darkness mechanic.

I also like the mechanic for the boss 'appearing'.

I just posted a little about my dungeon crawler at
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/16569911#16569911

Have you done more fleshing out of this game recently? I'd be interested to hear.

Zag24
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Joined: 03/02/2014
Spreadsheet

Thanks! I have been working on it, slowly but steadily. While the starting point is still http://zag.wikidot.com/dungeon-crawl, most of the work I've done on it is in the spreadsheet, which is not publicly shared.
(It is a spreadsheet to prepare for Nandeck, an awesome tool for making cards. I'm almost ready to start that step.)

If you would like to see it, I'll be glad to give access -- send me a private message with an email that Google Drive recognizes.

I (actually, mostly my son) has added a new concept recently, which is reflected in the spreadsheet. As a nod to the whole steampunk concept, all weapons are highly gadgetizable. For example, the Musketeer starts with a basic long arm firearm. It has three components, all standard in his initial weapon, but possibly swapped out with things he find: The stock, the trigger mechanism, and the barrel. He might find an auto-loader trigger mechanism, making his musket a much faster weapon. He might find a Lightning-enhanced barrel, which still fires the bullet but also releases an electric charge. etc.

Similarly, the melee weapons are gadgetizable. The knight templar has a great sword, made up a hilt, blade, tip, and guard. He might replace the basic blade with a chainsaw blade, the hilt with a Holy hilt, etc.

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