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When to design and when to stop(!?)

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questccg
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I recently happen to have new game ideas for another one of my designs: SpellMasters. To briefly explain the game is a "Letter/Tile" Game that features a Dungeon Crawl (in a very un-traditional way).

So let me continue to explain a little further and then we can get to my real issue...

Players choose a Monster for the level. This is a choice which is guided by the players themselves. The game is very "open" in that the Players as a group decide which Monster they will battle.

A> So here is my first issue. If you played AD&D or other RPGs or you are a fan of Fantasy Fiction (Adventure Books) or if you've ever DM-ed an RPG, etc. You can "think up" all kinds of Monsters...

Therefore Players who have a lot of LORE from other sources will find this concept absolutely BRILLIANT because it is flexible. (Of course the engine that controls the Monster AI has been tweaked and optimized to be more realistic...)

Now comes the DOWNSIDE: If you DON'T have much LORE from other sources, you may struggle and it may make the game much LESS "exciting"!

My IDEA was to create a 130 illustrated page book with 125 Monsters and some LORE/Blurbs in addition to information concerning the Monsters. It would cost a bit (because of the artwork and creative writing)... I wouldn't be making the book for money... But to give people not aware of Fantasy Fiction and Monster Lore a reference they can look through and select the Monsters the Players want to battle.

B> The next problem which is much HARDER to "imagine" is words that can link up to SPELLS that correspond to each Player's Wizard Class. This is perhaps EVEN HARDER than the Monsters because you have quite a bit of lore from other sources. Sure you have your Fireball and Zap spells... Which mostly everyone knows... But unless you have played AD&D or other RPGs, the familiarity with SPELLS is to a lesser degree (in the overall population as pop-culture). Granted Harry Potter and Twilight Movies have introduced some Spell Culture, it is still not very "helpful" in a game where you need to SPELL SPELLS (Woah!) It's called SpellMASTERS for a reason...

C> Having one or the other (and even BOTH) seems to DUMB-DOWN the entire experience. If you want a Monster, just look into the "Monster Lore" Companion Guide and choose one... Kind of BORING if you ask me. Much more interesting to remember the Ettins from Ultima V or the Trolls from Warcraft, etc. To me there doesn't seem like much MASTERY if all you need to do is lookup a Monster in a Book!

Same goes for Spells. If you have a "repertoire" of Spells and all you need to do is "choose" the ones that are more appropriate for each situation... It again (TBH) feels DUMB-DOWN.

If you read the Spells from another Guide, invariably it makes the game more SIMPLE! Just read and choose.

I'm just concerned that this kind of CONTENT would make the game go from REAL HARDCORE "Fantasy Fans" to everyone interested in "Fantasy"... I really don't know what I should do about this.

1. If I don't create the Guides, it will be HARD for MAJORITY of people to play the game. Because they don't have the LORE required to imagine spells that will go well with their Wizards.

2. However it will be VERY REWARDING for those players who happen to have a DM or AD&D Connaisseurs because of all the "Fantasy" Lore they bring to the game. That "knowledge" or Lore is PRICELESS for a game such as SpellMasters.

So what do you think???

Make both and sell them as options? Allow people to decide whatever they WANT to buy to compliment the game (as they see necessary or interesting to them)...

Having a "Monster Lore - Companion Guidebook" will cost UPWARDS of $10k. A "Great Library - Companion Spellbook" will cost LESS maybe around $5k since there wouldn't be any artwork per se.

What are your thoughts on the matter???

Thank you for your input and insight...

questccg
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Gaining EXPERIENCE

In the game, you can RECORD the Monsters you battle and the SPELLS you use to defeat them... This is on a notepad and there are 50 sheets which are double-sided which allow you to keep track of the tactics you use.

What this does is GROW your "Grimoire" (Spellbook). The MORE you play the game, the more you have as "reference material". And therefore the whole "MASTERY"... It takes time, you actually gain REAL EXPERIENCE as you play the game and solve new words/spells that you can ACTUALLY use in future situations or games (and even Monsters).

It's just going into the game with NO LORE or Fantasy Knowledge would make the game SUCK REAL BAD!

Thoughts???


The real issue is that although I think CHOOSING a "Monster" from the Lore Companion Guide would be less consequential... I can picture a REAL "Guidebook" where there are variants of Monsters similar to an AD&D Monster Manual but in spirit with the game (SpellMasters).

The real problem lies with the "Spellbook". See it's like the HEART of the game. And so just making all kinds of Spells available to would be Wizards is not really FUN.

It also sort of "by-passes" the whole GAINING EXPERIENCE and slowly MASTERING your repertoire of Spells.

Again you just need to lookup a spell in the Companion SpellBook and voila ... the deed is done. Seems much too simple TBH.

IDK ... I can agree that the "Monsters Book" could be good ... but the more ESSENTIAL Book would be the SPELLS. However this takes away all of the "REAL WORK" in playing the game and formulating spells with the letter tiles that you have to work with...

Really not sure about it...

questccg
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Thank you Raymond

questccg wrote:
I recently happen to have new game ideas for another one of my designs: SpellMasters...

Personally want to thank @Evil ColSanders who not too long ago tried to Kickstart his game "Dungeon Brawl". I had been considering a Wound system for SpellMasters and this crystallized as I re-watched the "Dungeon Brawl" KS Video.

Basically in Dungeon Brawl, each player's deck gets Wounds added to it, making each player's deck LESS EFFECTIVE. I took this and decided to create a Monster AI System which relies on the Monster, an AI deck which is different for each Monster and a Wound System which allows the Wizards to add Wounds to the AI deck making the Monsters less and less effective at combating the Wizards.

There are still issues to resolve with regards to the Spells themselves and one of those issues is "designing" NEW Spells that are Class-Appropriate for each Wizard/Player playing the game.

And of course the whole "Do I design a Spellbook" as reference material if it makes the game much too easy (Just peek into the Spellbook at find a spell that will work in your present situation)...

Anyways I will CREDIT @Evil ColSanders because he was the primary source of inspiration for my Monster AI System!

Thank you!


What I think about the "Reference" Spellbook is that I will include some content relating to what kind of "Concepts" each Wizard draws upon for his/her own source of Power. With a "detailed" explanation and maybe a couple of samples, I may not NEED the "Spellbook".

Or more precisely, I would want the game to GENERALLY feel a bit more "open" and allow the Wizards to work within the rules provided by each one of them (BTW there are a total of up to 5 Wizards to a game — but I think the game will be playable solo too... TBD!)

questccg
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Secret Sauce

One of the important factors to the "Monster Lore — Companion Guidebook" is that if everyone needs a copy of this manual, I can "preserve" the "secret sauce" as to how the Monster AI System/Engine works... This is the opposite of offering the inner workings of the engine so that any Monster can be playable. While I think this is *interesting*, I find myself thinking that keeping the "secret sauce" confidential is better.

Again I'm not looking to earn profit from these "reference guides". They're supposed to "complement" the game and IF I make them mandatory, well that means that less guides sold but that's okay since I'm not designing the guides for any profit... Sort of like a "loss-leader".

Buying one (1) companion guide sounds like ENOUGH. I don't think people will want to spend money on two guides. And if i sufficient FOCUS the spell side of things, it might make it a bit easier to help people find things that a common or fit-well with their class of Wizard.

Do you agree one (1) guidebook is enough?

john smith
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What about a online wiki?

What about a online wiki? With mobile devices in everybody's hand these days, accessing that at the game table would be easy. You could even put one of those UPC code looking links in rules book as a link to it. Then your cost is low, and the players cost is low for material you do not intend to profit on anyway.

questccg
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Artwork is expensive...

While I like the idea of a PDF people can share or a wiki... The problem when I say "I intend to make no profit" doesn't mean I can AFFORD to offer the guide FREE. And the reason is if it's going to cost me $75 for pencil and inked drawings (so Black & White only) if there are 125 illustrations doing the math that means $9,375... Almost $10k and it's only for the art.

Next you factor in about $2k for Creative Writing and then the price to manufacture the physical books which is under $5.00 a copy. Assuming that 500 copies are sold we get a total cost of almost $15k... And that's ONLY for the guidebook.

That means that with 500 copies, I need to sell each copy for about $30.

To me that seems like a freaken HIGH price to pay for something I would want to offer FREE. But I think you get the picture, right?

john smith
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Yeah I see what your saying.

Yeah I see what your saying.

questccg
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I would make a TON of games if that wasn't the case

questccg wrote:
...That means that with 500 copies, I need to sell each copy for about $30...

john smith wrote:
Yeah I see what your saying.

I've got some designs that I would really love to work on but they need A> a photographer and models B> an artist with a large volume of art C> etc.

I'd design like a BUNCH of cool games that no publisher will want to bring to market because the costs involved are just plain TOO HIGH. It's unfortunate but true, we as Game Designers need to walk the line between creative work and commercially viable product... Because some ideas are great and they make for a great game, but are just plain too costly when it comes to MAKING the game.

I may not be the only one, I'm sure there are other designers on BGDF that can echo this sentiment (about having good game designs but no marketing or manufacturing plan that goes along with them)...

questccg
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Take this Monster Lore — Companion Guidebook

questccg wrote:
(about having good game designs but no marketing or manufacturing plan that goes along with them)...

It will cost me about $3,000 to have the book physically produced. Not too bad. But in art fees it adds on another $10,000! And I'm paying reasonable rates that are based on a budget and reduced because one step (the coloring) is reduced too.

And it's still ALMOST "cost-prohibitive". Imagine if it were CARDS and they all required to be fully rendered in color and all. My per piece would be $100 each piece of art and that would mean more than $12,000!

People say that the prices I am paying are too LOW!!! Imagine that. I've had discussions with people "closer" to the artistic community and they say that art is worth several thousands of dollars... They're probably the un-sympathetic fools that have no clue as to the reality of making an MVP (Minimum Viable Product). How can you work with these people considering their expectation are so HIGH...

And seriously $30 for a Guidebook is expensive. Now you wonder why RPG books can cost upwards of $50 for a single book. Granted they have more pages, some are in color and they usually have a *serious* amount of artwork. For example AD&D's Monster Manual costs $58 (List price).

So this would ONLY be a companion to the game. If I make it essential and sell it as an "Add-On" product that could be interesting. But again my goal would be to sell enough copies to be able to AFFORD to MAKE (art and production) the book. Having NO ART would just suck... And maybe that's another PRODUCT which is beyond the scope of a realistic endeavor...

let-off studios
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My Suggestion

questccg wrote:
So what do you think???

Make both and sell them as options? Allow people to decide whatever they WANT to buy to compliment the game (as they see necessary or interesting to them)...

Having a "Monster Lore - Companion Guidebook" will cost UPWARDS of $10k. A "Great Library - Companion Spellbook" will cost LESS maybe around $5k since there wouldn't be any artwork per se.

What are your thoughts on the matter???

This is what my gut tells me. I have yet to successfully publish anything, self- or otherwise. My suggestion is as follows.

If you pitch it to a publisher, include these as ideas you want to pursue if the budget is sky-high. They might be included as exclusives for KickStarter or limited editions or something. The decision would be in their hands at that point, and you could advocate strongly for it.

Otherwise and/or if you are self-publishing, I wouldn't recommend pursuing it. It sounds like it's too expensive for your forecast income and current reserves.

questccg
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That's some good perspective...

I appreciate the honest feedback. I think like MOST of my designs, the budget I have is way HIGHER than most publishers. The range that I have been told should be between $3,000 - $4,000 USD. Take that and divide as you wish... but it's pennies if you think about what it takes to bring a game to market.

I know now that I don't NEED the "Spellbook" and I am picturing a very CLEAR and concise direction for the "Spells" in SpellMasters. And generally speaking the direction I am leaning towards are to use words that "match" with the Magicians' class. For example a Druid = focus on Nature. It doesn't have to be all conflict-oriented content... It could be much more FLEXIBLE like "Rock", "Wood", "Leaf", "Lake", etc. All those could be VALID and 100% acceptable spell words.

Rather than trying to make a game what it ISN'T meant to be, I can focus on things which are more RELEVANT and "sources" of power.

Why make it difficult when all you need to explain is "Nature" and let the players explore from there on-wards(!?) Sure "Nature" is a very BROAD description ... and that's the idea: to INCREASE the pool of likelihood in finding spell words that are easy, with a more flexible game engine.

Anyhow I really think with more time, I can ADAPT things to become more intuitive and less challenging when it comes each class of Magicians. This one example illustrates what I CAN achieve. Because all those words given from one cue word are basic to most people I know. Why shouldn't it be THAT SIMPLE(!?)

questccg
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Merry Christmas to all of the BGDF designers

I guess I'll take this moment to wish all of the BGDF designers (if you're a regular ... you know who you are) and also all of the newcomers to BGDF that have just been with us until only recently, a very Merry Christmas!

I know Christmas (the day) is almost over... But since I've got some time before the end of this very festive day, I wanted to give you all the warmest of wishes to you and your families.

Merry Christmas! And Happy Holidays.

questccg
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Another good point ... but

let-off studios wrote:
...Otherwise and/or if you are self-publishing, I wouldn't recommend pursuing it. It sounds like it's too expensive for your forecast income and current reserves.

I am trying to see what I can do "self-publishing" via Kickstarter. It's not that I don't appreciate working for/with a Publisher. It's just because with "TradeWorlds" I have learned a lot and have found ways around most of the "pitfalls" to crowdfunding.

What I mean by this is that I analyzed several crowdfunding campaigns including the one done by my Publisher and I have identified "Pain-Points" in the process. As such, I have focused my efforts on designing a product that is more "crowdfunding-friendly"...

For example, most creators worry about their cost of freight, the insurance that might be required in case there is an accident, the overall time taken to ship, the costs of all the steps in-between, etc.

I have in turn created a product for thousands of backers which can ship in two (2) to three (3) boxes at most. In addition, at that quantity they can be air-shipped directly to my warehouse with little or no extra cost.

I was working hard towards having a "format" that is just easier to manage and that the price was reasonable considering what you are getting.

I am still in discussions with a couple manufacturers because I have not finalized all the "items": there are optional Add-Ons which improve the management portion of the game but they are NOT necessary.

However I am dealing with one company that has gone through a good deal explanation of what I need and what I suggest they "source". Anyhow they are looking into it because they understand they need to buy in BULK. Otherwise they are going to PAY for "useless" packaging and double the assembly effort. What I mean is that you don't want to PAY for someone to count 100 winks and then charge you for bags of 10 winks each... Something like that. You don't need the extra effort. Just get me 40,000 red winks (for example only)...

And so I plan to "go it alone" once all the variables have been resolved. Right now with the remaining "items", I need to be certain that everything is confirmed and "possible" to do. Even though I am sort of "streamlining" the process and making it EASIER, there still needs to be certain confirmations regarding feasibility...

Something like that...

questccg
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Have a LOOK at one Monster

Here is a EARLY preview with regards to the Monster Guidebook. Click on the link/URL below to open up a PDF with two (2) page book:

Monster Guidebook

Please let me know if this is something you FEEL would add real "value" to a game such as "SpellMasters". I personally like this "sample" because it gives a vibe to how the game should be played...

Share with me your thoughts/feedback/questions/comments!

Note #1: I've improved the "LOOK" of guidebook with some extra details to go along with the essential content (Monsters and variants). Maybe some creative writing will "enhance" the overall feel of the Guidebook!

Note #2: This is just a PREVIEW... I know that I will have some tweaking to do. I can already picture "tweaking" the AI Decks to use LESS cards. Right now they are computed but like Health, it's specified rather than computed. I think I would want to reduce some of the Deck sizes, however allow tweaking to be possible too.

Note #3: I've made some minor tweaks doing some more research on the various types of "damages" and came up with a NEW AI Decks used with these "revised" versions. I also have planned to make the AI Deck contain 60 cards, with 12 different types of attacks/forms of damage (and obviously five of each...) This is a bit MORE than my deck of 50 cards. But I needed a couple extra forms of magical damage...

The new Guidebook Sample takes into account those details now.

questccg
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Still just an Add-On

While I think the Monster Guidebook is COOL... I don't feel that it is a necessary component to the game. While I would SUGGEST people purchase a hard copy of this document, I can maybe "reduce" the cost by NOT including illustrations... I know that's a bit *lousy* but it could simply mean that a PDF version could be available for FREE!

And that a physical copy could be LESS than $10 USD.

I really think this is the "smart" avenue to choose. Yeah it would be cool to have artwork for each "Monster"... However at $10k ... That is TOO cost prohibitive. Having some interesting lore as part of the book would be reasonably possible and at a fraction of the art/illustrations cost.

I really want the PDF to be downloadable and once you understand how the ENGINE works, you can design your own "Monsters" and not really NEED the Monster Guidebook...

If it costs like under $10 USD to get a hardcopy that is not so unreasonable. But a price upwards for $25+ USD just because of all the cool artwork is quite frankly TOO MUCH. I'm going back to my priority: to deliver a GREAT GAME. That doesn't REQUIRE amazing artwork in all shapes and forms.

By taking a look at the "Dragon", you get a real sense of what kind of CONTENT will be available from the PDF. And IF your gaming group WANTS to use a physical copy of the Monster Guidebook, you can buy a copy at a reasonable price.

FREE is great. And being able to OFFER the Monster Guidebook as an electronic version, that too is great. It just allows me to focus on making the guidebook without excess that will A> Take up a lot of time to draw B> Push the delivery time by at least 12 months C> Cost more money than making the book itself, etc.

Anyways you all probably get the idea. Offering the PDF for FREE is my goal now... I want to ensure that the time taken to make physical copies is as an optional Add-On and that the FREE PDF will always be made available to download...

Cheers!

larienna
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Check this article,

Check this article, especially the "Law of diminishing return"

http://bgd.lariennalibrary.com/index.php?n=DesignArticle.Article-Incompl...

questccg
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Thanks for the link...

Interesting indeed...!

I have begun adding more Monsters to the Monster Guidebook and ... well... I LOVE IT! (LOL) I should be working on "Monster Keep" but I feel like working on "SpellMasters" and the Monster Guidebook.

Although at present the PDF will be "downloadable" for FREE at any time, a hardcopy of the book will be an "Add-On" to a crowdfunding campaign for a reasonable price. I'm not trying to make a huge amount of profit from the publishing of the Guidebook... It's more about having a work at your disposal to browse through while you delve deeper into the dungeon.

I've also noted that the FORMAT is great for Cellular Phones and having a copy handy with you at all times is achievable with a SmartPhone with an average display size (doesn't need to be the biggest screen ever...)

The only "down-side" is that home printing of the PDF is a bit "messy". The format just doesn't fit with standard 8.5" x 11" sheets of paper. Which is probably why IF you like the Guidebook and you think you would want a physical copy, well then it would be best to purchase a hardcopy for your own gaming group's use. I think the Monster Guidebook will be a reasonably priced Add-On which will encourage people seriously interested in the game to take a deeper look and experience all the LORE available to players. With over 125 pages worth of Monster Lore, this book is for certain a GREAT "reference" book for "SpellMasters"...

The book will be a total and complete "labour of love"... I'm doing it because it will make an extremely useful Add-On. Not essential, FREE is good ... but the electronic version is not as easy to just open and turn to any page you would like to browse. You'll have to scroll down to the right Letter (A-Z) and then go through the multiple entries until you find the right one. The hardcopy book allows you to do this QUICKER than on your Cellular Phone for example... But you can always download the PDF and store it on your device in the event that you don't have the hardcopy with you!

I've since given up on the "idea" of having artwork for each Monster.

And I think the current layout, font selection and format is something reasonably decent looking. Granted it's no AD&D Monster Manual (with all the bling and art and formatting, etc.) but it's good format for a simple small book you can use as a reference.

questccg
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Anyone have a look at the sample???

Just wanted to know if anyone had a look at the "Monster Guidebook"??? It's still only has a few pages but I have been working the "breakdown" of the baddies that will encompass the Guidebook. Here are some of my numbers:

  • 130 Pages of Monster badness
  • 2 Pages per Monster type
  • 65 Total Monsters in the Guidebook
  • 26 Letters to the Alphabet
  • 2.5 Pages per Letter
  • Between 2 to 3 Monster types per Letter

Which is rather REASONABLE to achieve (I think!) It's not overly too voluminous to do (as a task). It may require some creativity, but for the most part the harder parts are done (Format, Layout, Fonts, etc.) All the presentation details are taken care of... Only remains to write out the remainder of the book!

Really like to hear your thoughts on it(!?)

questccg
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One step forwards

questccg wrote:
+ 65 Total Monsters in the Guidebook

I've already produced an initial DRAFT of the 65 Unique Monster types. This is only the beginning because each type can have various "Specifics" and "Variants" making each category more complexe.

However I generally have the overall categorization which is ONE (1) step forwards in terms of progress.

Keep you all posted!

questccg
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Happy New Year to all of the BGDF designers

It's still a few hours before Midnight... But I guess I'll take this moment to wish all of the BGDF designers (if you're a regular ... you know who you are) and also all of the newcomers to BGDF that have just been with us until only recently, all the best in the New Year!

I know 2018 (the year) is almost over... But since I've got some time before its end, I wanted to give you all the warmest of wishes to you and your families, time for your hobby game projects, success in finding people to Publish your games, lots of fresh new ideas to help along with the old ones and generally Health, Wealth and Happiness in the New Year.

Happy New Year! And all the very best for 2019.

questccg
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Here's a pretty good PREVIEW

Here is a still an early preview with regards to the Monster Guidebook. Click on the link/URL below to open up a PDF with ten (10) pages:

Monster Guidebook

I intend to write an entire book... Right now it's just the beginning. But I've taken about 8 hours (over time not in one sitting) to research and write the contents of the Guidebook. It's not always obvious and the whole Angels vs. Devils thing is pretty cool ... You could be the Good Guys trying to defeat the Army from Hell OR you can be the Bad Guys trying to storm the gates of Heaven by trying to defeat the Archangels! Your choice...

It's this kind of "open-ended" campaign-like RPG-ish design/development I hope to achieve with the game!

Please feel free to share your thoughts and provide me with some feedback!

questccg
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At the moment...

My ideas with the Monster Guidebook are to provide a book with sufficient content that can allow you a "catalog" of variety you can choose from. With a "book" full of variety it will make the game extremely "re-playable" and allow players to think up their own "campaigns" and/or scenarios.

I don't want to bog down the game with additional cards for AI purposes. But the game will have a 61 card AI deck which is used for handling "combat" between the Wizards (Players) and the creatures (from the Monster Guidebook). The AI deck will be comprised of 5 cards of 12 different types (60 cards) + one (1) card for "re-shuffling" the AI deck.

So for example the AI deck has 8 cards + 1 "re-shuffle" card. As play goes on, the players insert "wound" cards that when drawn "inflict damage" to the creature in question. The "re-shuffle" card makes the game less predictable and ensures that the *entire* AI deck does not need to be exhausted. Making the deck less "predictable".

With the laws of probability, the more "wound" cards get added to the deck, the quicker the creature will probably be slain. I say "probably" because there are random factors which affect the outcome of card selection.

But generally speaking that's how it's going to work.

questccg
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Well it seems like I inadvertently inspired Tim!

I'm glad that I shared my thoughts on the Monster AI System because it seems like @Tim Edwards had a flash of ideas when reading and it seems like the "core" concept helped him with his own Work-In-Progress (WIP).

Although he is not planning on using the Monster AI System, he was interested in the "Deck-Building" aspect that occurs on-the-fly with regards to the Wounds being added to the player's deck. This is just an idea but he plans to playtest it and see how effective the concept is.

For my purposes too the Monster AI System has a few extra moving parts but it too is rather simple and "elegant" in handling the entire AI part of SpellMasters. I too am rather pleased with the few "extras" that get added to make the system work in a way that our Wizards can challenge the AI opponent and "inflict wounds" too...

Cheers!

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