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looking for playtesters

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gxnpt
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Joined: 12/22/2015

The Singularity Trap - prototype version 9.0

Turn Based 2-6 player browser / server based hexmap wargame in 3 dimensions. Territorial/economic hidden movement with shifting alliances.

PHP/MySQL/Javascript for use as localhost or LAN or web.

Open playtesting in progress.

http://thesingularitytrap.com

playtesters may have a gratis copy of the game if desired

gxnpt
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Joined: 12/22/2015
What? No way to delete a

What? No way to delete a comment, just edit it?

gxnpt
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anybody ?

Such an overwhelming response. Let's try a new tack.

ONLY if you like playing miniature battles or hexmap boardgames or possibly Diplomacy or a related game are you likely to be at all interested in playing this game.

However, if a microgame boardgame implemented on computer - browser based for players - might interest you I have an instance of the game for you to look at.

The Mod password for this instance of the game is 000
so you can create and delete wars.

http://gxnpt.0fees.us/gx/index.html

I would really appreciate some feedback here in this thread.

To any visiting non-members who see this and want to playtest as a group, email me at my gmail account megxnpt@gmail.com and I will make you your own instance of the game to play with.

polyobsessive
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Okay...

I've just had a very quick look over your game and it reminds me a lot of some of the play-by-mail games I was playing in the 90's. This isn't a bad thing, but it looks a lot more like that than a minis, or hex-and-counter wargame, and it definitely looks nothing at all like Diplomacy (other than the order writing bit). Of course, if I spent more time looking or playing, I might see the similarities.

Having a game that you can play in a browser is a good way to get people trying it, but you have to find the right people, and given that this is a boardgames forum, you might struggle a little here. (Hopefully I'm wrong about that too -- I'm also new here!)

The thing that most put me off exploring further is that the game appears (note: appears) quite opaque, and starting from scratch with a need to start issuing build orders and rummage through this page of rules to try to find what I need to do and figure out some sort of a plan.

Possibly a useful approach would be to set up an introductory game where initial builds are already completed, and maybe even deployed around your starting world, so the interesting play can get going right away.

You also have (IMO) an interface problem. With board games, the interface is based around moving physical components around, which can be reasonably instinctive. The indirect approach of writing orders like this can make it harder to play. In video games where you issue orders, it is more typical to click on units to order them, which might be more intuitive. Diplomacy's order writing is far from ideal, but it is a very old game, and mostly gets away with it because the game is so simple. The newer A Game Of Thrones game, for example, has a similar dynamic but uses order tokens to streamline the process.

That said, I am certain there are people out there who love the order writing, but it does limit the appeal.

I'll also mention that I am rarely interested in games where the objective is to eliminate all your opponents. It often results in a slow, drawn out finish without any excitement towards the end (or at any time if turtling proves to be viable). That said, an online game with player knock-outs is not as bad as a similar tabletop game, as at least I can walk away from a website and get on with other things once I've been knocked out.

Maybe you could consider alternative objectives other than the absolute domination? Maybe controlling certain key worlds?

Oh, and one final comment, while "microgame" used to be applied to small hex-and-counter wargames, these days it has a very different connotation. Check out the likes of Love Letter or Coin Age for great examples of modern microgames.

Sorry if this all comes across as being very negative; it's only my opinion, and I wish you the best of luck with the game: it's hard to create a good game and you have my respect. :)

gxnpt
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the game

Quote:
Oh, and one final comment, while "microgame" used to be applied to small hex-and-counter wargames, these days it has a very different connotation. Check out the likes of Love Letter or Coin Age for great examples of modern microgames.

Good point - and very related to my gaming the last 2+ decades having been limited to a bit of wasting time in things like Evony and Grepolis until they each started to resemble a job more than a game.
Anybody have a better classification term for this sort of small hex-and-counter wargame in current nomenclature? Mini Multiplayer?

Quote:
I'll also mention that I am rarely interested in games where the objective is to eliminate all your opponents. It often results in a slow, drawn out finish without any excitement towards the end (or at any time if turtling proves to be viable). That said, an online game with player knock-outs is not as bad as a similar tabletop game, as at least I can walk away from a website and get on with other things once I've been knocked out.

Maybe you could consider alternative objectives other than the absolute domination? Maybe controlling certain key worlds?

From my (self only) playtesting I suspect that the tendency will be for a player to become a "client state" of another player or set of players as opposed to being totally eliminated or resigning the game. And I fully expect "surrender and declare winner" rather than total elimination to actually be the end of most games.

Also from my own testing, the turtle defense is not a viable strategy. Example: 1 planet can maintain 5 basestars for 15 weapons and shots and each has armor of 4 but 2 planets could maintain 10 cruisers for 20 weapons and shots and 2 armor each.

Quote:
You also have (IMO) an interface problem. With board games, the interface is based around moving physical components around, which can be reasonably instinctive. The indirect approach of writing orders like this can make it harder to play. In video games where you issue orders, it is more typical to click on units to order them, which might be more intuitive. Diplomacy's order writing is far from ideal, but it is a very old game, and mostly gets away with it because the game is so simple. The newer A Game Of Thrones game, for example, has a similar dynamic but uses order tokens to streamline the process.

That said, I am certain there are people out there who love the order writing, but it does limit the appeal.

I like the written orders bit myself. BUT, there is no need to use anything but mouseclicks to enter them - typing is left as an option but I rarely type in a vector.
Left click on map and level buttons populates the Position, right clicking populates the Target. Vector updates itself with changes in Position and Target (or you can type in Vector).

The Copy buttons copy Vector into each segment vector (or you can type in the segment vectors).

(For the Build phase you can select an owned planet from the select field OR by left clicking on the map.)

This is an expansion/revision of what originally was a "microgame" when it was poorly published back in 1978. The original game incorporated some aspects of miniature battles that I (and my gaming group back then) liked but eliminated others like measuring etc. we didn't like by using the hexmap board. Paperwork for each ship was like miniature battle paperwork and was for each ship (but 10 ships was a big fleet and we never saw a fleet larger than 15 ships in a year of playtesting). The written orders idea came from "wooden ships" naval warfare miniature rules.

Alliances started out as a way to play the game as teams but grew (bad idea, bad idea, get back in your box -- well,ok, since you won't go back).
Testing showed that the shifting alliances gave it an entirely new twist and the "feel" was just a little bit like Diplomacy but remained a wargame instead of a mostly Art-of-the-Deal game which is how I think of Diplomacy itself.

Quote:
The thing that most put me off exploring further is that the game appears (note: appears) quite opaque, and starting from scratch with a need to start issuing build orders and rummage through this page of rules to try to find what I need to do and figure out some sort of a plan.

This is an excellent example of the type of feedback I was hoping for.

The beginning of the game is build a couple ships - usually scouts - and grab a couple planets. (But, will you go for 2 sides or a 1 side and 1 toward center or both toward center?).

The second turn of the game (after initial planet grab and possible alliances) MIGHT have conflict involved depending on players and choices in the first turn.

The third turn of the game is almost certain to involve conflict (at least in a 4-6 player game). After all, a scout ship can go completely across the board in 3 moves. Even allies tend to get in each others way on turn 3 and onward.

Perhaps an expansion of the rules with an intro section on game strategy/tactics?
Anyone have more input in this area?

----------------------------------------------------------

A comment in general on my game:

It was designed to be a game I would enjoy playing. It is definately a niche sort of game that will only appeal to a few -- but that describes all hex and counter wargames.

I can use it as a play-and-pass game on just my laptop - tedious if more than 2 players.

I can use it with my computer serving as a LAN server on my router for multi-device in person games.

I can use it off a web server (even most free hosts) as an online game using Skype etc. for chat while playing if not in same room.

The final production version would ideally have these same 3 options but with the server capability built in or bundled with the game for local/LAN use.

----------------------------------------------------------

I suspect we are will soon see an expanding desire for games that a person can buy and use both locally multi-device or online.

Any opinions on this?

gxnpt
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another outdated comment

another outdated comment

gxnpt
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open playtesting

going to do the open playtest run through the end of March

http://thesingularitytrap.com

polyobsessive
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Odd

This thread seems a bit weird because of all the "deleted" bits. Why did you do that?

gxnpt
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why deleted bits

I deleted bits that amounted to ramblings (I kept the parts that showed progress) - and the games website http://thesingularitytrap.com now includes some demos to play with and I attempted to address the elements you pointed out.

Frankly, I am thinking at this point - since I have been unable to get any response via multiple forums involving actually playing a game (although reddit resulted in a few nonsense game creations on 1 copy linked by the oddlings.tk site) - that I might release it via torrent just to see if it will spread that way as unofficial shareware.

After the open play period ends on the actual game website I plan on killing off all current forum posts including boardgamegeek and videogamegeek etc. etc.

It may be too much of niche game for general interest, but a final announcement post might be appropriate. Currently undecided about doing that or simply vanishing all forum threads.

IF anyone actually wants to check it out see the website.

IF anyone is interested in playing with me involved as a player or wants to have a private copy to use for a weekend or somesuch I can be contacted via that website (links to my gmail email).

In general, I am bored with attempts to get people to look at it and it is no longer bugging me for development so it may be time for me to figure out which Discworld books I have not read yet.

polyobsessive
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Moving forward...

gxnpt wrote:
I deleted bits that amounted to ramblings (I kept the parts that showed progress) - and the games website http://thesingularitytrap.com now includes some demos to play with and I attempted to address the elements you pointed out.

Fair enough. Though it often helps if you put a note to summarise what you deleted, as that can help someone new to the thread catch up.

Quote:
Frankly, I am thinking at this point - since I have been unable to get any response via multiple forums involving actually playing a game (although reddit resulted in a few nonsense game creations on 1 copy linked by the oddlings.tk site) - that I might release it via torrent just to see if it will spread that way as unofficial shareware.

It's a shame that you have been struggling to get useful feedback. I suspect here might not be the best place to try as, while I am sure plenty of people here enjoy online games of various types, the focus is on actual board games, and the community here is small compared with many other sites.

Just putting the game out there might be worthwhile, but I don't know how that sort of thing works with publicity and attracting people's attention -- which, I guess, is really the big problem at the moment.

Quote:
After the open play period ends on the actual game website I plan on killing off all current forum posts including boardgamegeek and videogamegeek etc. etc.

It may be too much of niche game for general interest, but a final announcement post might be appropriate. Currently undecided about doing that or simply vanishing all forum threads.

I'm never a fan of erasing posts, except for in very special circumstances. I think you are far better to just add a note on the thread that you are ceasing development for the time being, or moving to a different phase, or whatever is appropriate. Then if someone stumbles across the thread, they can see what has been going on and can contact you or reawaken the thread if they are interested and want to help in some way. And also, if these things worry you, you then have a track on the internet if you feel that someone is ripping your work off and can provide evidence to show some of the work you did.

Quote:
IF anyone actually wants to check it out see the website.

IF anyone is interested in playing with me involved as a player or wants to have a private copy to use for a weekend or somesuch I can be contacted via that website (links to my gmail email).

Yep, something like that sounds good. If nothing else, it leaves some extra links out there which may make your website more discoverable in the future.

Quote:
In general, I am bored with attempts to get people to look at it and it is no longer bugging me for development so it may be time for me to figure out which Discworld books I have not read yet.

I can't say I blame you. When nobody knows who you are (and I'm in the same boat!) it can be really difficult to attract attention and get people to help you out. I'm not very good at marketing myself and networking, so it is taking a long time to make the necessary contacts, but very slowly I'm getting there.

If the game is no longer talking to you and hassling you to work on it, that is fair enough -- maybe it is time to just move on, as you say. But if you do want to keep it going, it takes more patience and persistence (or exceptional people skills!) to get anywhere -- the technical work is only a small part of the overall battle.

I wish you the best of luck, whatever you decide to do.

richdurham
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comment editing

If there are replies to a comment, deleting it also deletes all the replies, which is not in the user rights. Silly single threads.

richdurham
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regarding playtesters:

This is a hard one. Ideally all the designers here could post their games, and each would get tons of feedback that makes the game shine. This is a difficult proposition, since designers are busy working on their own games to offer playtesting services (yeah, we know it's effort, not just "whee I get to play a game!).

It's clear you've encountered this challenge - so what to do?

You've gotten some willing souls who've donated their time - which is great! But you want more, so here are a couple options:

  1. Ask a few (just a few) designers if they'd like to do a prototype exchange (yours is easy since it's web based) where you each provide detailed feedback on each others' games. Even better if they other games are also digital, so you can test with the other players and get immediate feedback.

  2. Offer your playtesting services to others, publicly. In "payment" you ask that they try your game and provide answers to questions you've laid out ahead of time (eg. a survey using google forms).

If you've already tried these, i'd be interested in seeing your opinion on what worked/why it didn't.

jonathanflike
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Hmm

I wouldn't delete all mention of your game if you aren't able to get the feedback you want. Ultimately, when your game is finished you will still have to convince the consumer your game is something worth investing their time and money in. If you are passionate about it, I would continue to put more effort in it and build on its presentation. I see a lot of opportunities with it to improve the art, accessibility, and presentation of it. I think if those factors were addressed, the ease of entry for people coming into a playtest scenario would be easier.

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