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Dungeon Draw (micro PYL card game)

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JewellGames
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The Shield and Lucky Coin

Something that came up in a few playtester feedback forms was how "unfair" the Shield could be when someone drew 4+ coins, drew a Shield, and was able to further "press their luck" with minimal risk.

While I do really like the current Shield's power, it does somewhat counteract the premise of the genre.

The first idea was to change the Shield to "Any adjacent treasure is scored even if you're defeated." but it was a wasted card when neither adjacent card was treasure.

The Lucky Coin and 1 health didn't quite fit anyway. So, we moved the +1 health to the Shield which made sense thematically and gave the Lucky Coin an individual version of the old Shield's power, which is a little more fair.

I am still testing the Shield to see if it should be bumped up to +2 health or given an additional power such as "This reduces the attack of any adjacent monster by 1."

JewellGames
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Rules, Cards

I am rewriting the rules here and would appreciate any feedback. The second page containing a description for each card hasn't been added yet but I am focusing on the gameplay rules first.

You will notice that the card powers and when they activate are hopefully more distinct.

Instant powers are activated immediately when the card is drawn.
Flip powers can be activated at any time during your turn by flipping the card over. Once a card has been flipped over, it cannot be activated again.
• All other card powers are passive ongoing effects.

Click to see the full image.

Edit: I created the new PnP cards here to be tested along with the new rules.

let-off studios
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Lich Question, etc.

About the Lich... Does its power increase even after it's revealed, or only for the monsters that were revealed before the Lich was? If power continues to increase, I find it useful to think of it as a "curse" card, in that it could also be seen as increasing the power of each monster by 1. Just an observation, but it seems easier for me to understand this way.

Also, I really like how the Bad Juju card works, and I'm happy to see that Torch was returned to the game. Maybe you want to add a coin bonus to the torch card so that if a player doesn't use the Torch's power it's worth 1 coin at the end of that round. Otherwise the only choice is "when do I use this?" NOT using it and simply keeping it in inventory isn't a worthwhile choice at the moment.

I have a game event coming up this Sunday, and will have a prototype deck worked out before then to show. If there's any worthwhile feedback I'll be sure to post it for you.

JewellGames
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I do like that as an aura,

I do like that as an aura, "All other monsters in the dungeon have +1 attack."

But, then maybe a Lich isn't the best fit for that power if it doesnt have any attack itself.

Well, the Torch can combo with the Sword or later on during a turn as you get closer to defeat but I need to find an elegant way to improve it without adding too much information on the card.

Thanks for trying it out!

Another thing I was testing (but this gives the game more cards) is:

1) Changing the Shield to "This reduces the attack of adjacent monsters by 1." This can whiff if no adjacent monsters or be really strong if there is a monster on each side. One adjacent monster and this is the same as it is now.

This does require a little more bookkeeping of your current wounds.

2) The game would add 4 health potions that grant +1 health bonus for a turn. You are granted one if you're defeated on your turn. And, if you're defeated and there are no potions left, you can steal one from another player. So it's worthwhile to use them sooner than later in games with more players.

Is this a welcome addition or creating unnecessary extra components?

let-off studios
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Liches, Potions, etc.

Regarding the Lich: call it like the "Inferno" or "Lich's Curse" or "Monkey's Paw" or something like that if you want to go for an aura effect.

An alternative is to apply the aura effect from the point the Lich is uncovered onward. It's like the players have accidentally opened the tomb of the lost evil wizard and now everyone suffers. Upon revealing the Lich, move it to the top of the playing field so it's seen as having a persistent effect. This makes future players' turns harder, so I would consider reshuffling the Lich back into the deck once the final player has their turn that round. Alter turn order so the player who earned the least coins in the previous round goes first, and that may mitigate a "rewarding the leader" phenomenon.

This has the potential of bringing MUCH more much complexity to the game, but it may be worth considering depending on how you want to go forward. Leaving the Lich just the same as it is now can be totally acceptable.

I'll see what I can do to have a go at both methods this weekend. The game is short enough that I imagine players will want to go through at least two matches. One small change from one match to the next might also seem novel, and the group has generally seemed enthusiastic with prototypes.

Regarding the Potions: I do think this would add to the complexity and book-keeping of the game, with minimal improvement. I suggest you allow a player who "busts out" to "slide up" the +1 markers on the player's health card one more than the players who didn't bust for the following round. If all players bust out that round, then no player makes an adjustment beyond the regular rules.

I wouldn't suggest this being a transferable item that can be nabbed by someone else. There's potential of a winning player(s) stealing something from the clear loser, and that's not fun.

Additionally, if you want the game to be simply a deck of cards to factor in production considerations, it doesn't seem worth making tokens just for the potions and nothing else.

let-off studios
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Shield

Regarding the Shield: What you're proposing doesn't seem to fit thematically. What it sounds like to me is not a portable object like a Shield, but an immovable structure like an Altar.

If you had a "Protective Altar" card in the dungeon, then it would make sense to me that it would reduce the strength of creatures on either side of it. But for a portable item like a Shield, I'd say leave it as it is. It doesn't seem too overpowered, and there seem to be fewer "special cases" or situations when a Shield isn't helpful or left simply to chance/luck of the draw.

JewellGames
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I am trying to make the

I am trying to make the wording as simple and straight forward as possible. I was hoping that "Has +1 attack for every other monster in the dungeon" implied it was an ongoing effect that was affecting by all monsters before and after it.

But I do like an aura monster with "All other monsters in the dungeon have +1 attack."

A monster that applies to ALL players and isn't shuffled into the deck until the end of a round may work if the deck is a lot larger than 21 cards.

The potions would just be cards not tokens. They would be played next to the hero health card so the bookkeeping on that end should be very easy. The problem with sliding up the health markers is that it also tracks the current round so there could be confusion when sliding that up and down and then trying to recall what is and isn't the current round.

True that winning players could steal if there is 4+ players and all potions are in hand but that means that there would have to be a lot of busted players all on the same round or players that are hoarding potions. The idea was to add more player interaction but that may or may not be a good thing.

For now, I will keep the game as is with the Shield and no potions and go from there.

let-off studios
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JewellGames wrote:A monster

JewellGames wrote:
A monster that applies to ALL players and isn't shuffled into the deck until the end of a round may work if the deck is a lot larger than 21 cards.

Hahahaha! You could make it really evil by having a +1 Attack To All Monsters card added as a persistent effect each time The Lich is drawn, and at the end of the active player's turn The Lich is reshuffled into the deck. The +1 Attack cards would stack the more The Lich was revealed, until the end of the current round. VERY dangerous. :)

And I think that I understand the potions a little better now. However I don't think the "stealing" mechanic works best with the theme at this point. What justifies a player stealing the potions from an opponent who is exploring the dungeon separately from them? I can conceive of a kind of "henchman" mechanic that can apply, but that's going pretty far afield and again bogs down the game with additional rules and such.

JewellGames
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Potions

The original purpose of allowing players to take potions from others (only IF there are none in middle) was to discourage players from "hoarding" potions and to reward the most recent players that were defeated. This really only becomes a factor in games with 4+ players with everyone busting at the same time.

But, I agree that it doesn't exactly fit with the theme.

Anyway, do you like the Lich who gets the self attack buff or this Floating Eye that buffs all other monsters? They essentially do the same thing. Its an ongoing effect so it buffs previous and future monsters while the Eye itself has no attack. I feel like the aura is easier to track than the self buff.

let-off studios
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Floating Eye

I'd prefer the floating eye. Again, for some reason it seems easier for me to consider the Lich's power stated differently (and in this case, like you do for the Floating Eye). It just seems to make more sense and is easier to calculate quickly. And the artwork is much more adorable, in my opinion. :)

One question that may come up: is there a way for the player to remove the Floating Eye? For example, if they guess correctly while using the sword ability can they eliminate the Floating Eye like any other monster? I'd say that sounds reasonable.

JewellGames
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Sword

Yes, you can use the Sword on it. The cards have been updated in the OP.

ronnyay
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Hello, I find your card very

Hello, I find your card very attractive. Do you mind sharing what software did you use to make the card art and format your print-ready pdf?

While I can draw the cards in a software, I have difficulty in making them the same size as a playing card and align them on a A4 paper.

JewellGames
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Cards

I use Photoshop to create cards.

Each PnP card is 2.5x3.5 inches @ 300 dpi.
Each PnP page is 8.5x11 inches @ 300 dpi. I use the software's guidelines to quickly align the cards into a 3x3 grid.

I save each page as a png (lostless format) and then combine them into a single pdf.

ronnyay
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JewellGames wrote:I use

JewellGames wrote:
I use Photoshop to create cards.

Each PnP card is 2.5x3.5 inches @ 300 dpi.
Each PnP page is 8.5x11 inches @ 300 dpi. I use the software's guidelines to quickly align the cards into a 3x3 grid.

I save each page as a png (lostless format) and then combine them into a single pdf.

Thank you! I will try putting my hands on photoshop (or GIMP). :)

JewellGames
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I am considering submitting

I am considering submitting this for the Ion Award (Jan 1 deadline) just to gain the experience and feedback from the judging process of an official contest.

That means I really need to improve the rules and solidify the card powers over the next 2 weeks.

polyobsessive
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Good luck!

Good luck if you do submit the game. It should be good experience. There's also the Cardboard Edison award which might be worth considering.

This game has come a long way in the last few months and is looking really good. I must print out the latest version...

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Lookin Good

I love how far this has come its looking great

let-off studios
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I think the game is very

I think the game is very strong, and even at this point seems as good a candidate as any for the Ion Award.

Here are a few observations/questions I want to share after a few playtests earlier this week.

- I absolutely LOVE the Bad Juju card. It can make the difference between a tie and a win, making it a striking, dramatic card late in the game. The only time I see it rather useless is when Player 1 draws it in Round 1. That doesn't seem very common. If I were nit-picky, I'd change it to a "Use" item, and/or attempt to find some way for this card to offer an advantage for Player 1 on Round 1 only (for example, "On Player 1's turn in Round 1, move this card to the bottom of the Draw deck").
- Does the Trap double the effect of the Floating Eye? In other words, since its attack icon is the "plus sign," does this mean that it ends up being a "double plus sign" and increasing every other monster's attack by 2? Since the Special Effect of the Floating Eye is directly related to its attack, I've house-ruled that all other monsters receive a +2 to Attack, and this doesn't seem too game-breaking (even when it's persistent for the rest of the player's turn) as it's considerably rare.
- I've noticed that the Blob can be very helpful in eliminating the Cursed Coin. Some players are relieved to see it, as they have the impression that avoiding damage is better in all cases compared to gaining wealth. If I were nit-picky, I'd offer the player the choice to discard a Coin or an Item when the Blob is revealed. Players will lose Coins in a lot of cases to other players' Bad Juju.
- You may want to clarify on the Key card that both the Trap and the Key are discarded when the Key is used to disarm.
- You may want to clarify on the Treasure Chest that only the Score of a Coin is doubled, not its "worth." Some players may think it doubles a Coin's Special Effect (like the Cursed Coin), and I don't think that's what you want to do.

Great job with this game! Your work and persistence has obviously paid off. The game has a tremendous amount of variety even in a single match, and plenty of interactivity and replayability. See what else you can do in the week or so before the submission deadline.

JewellGames
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I'm currently on the road so

I'm currently on the road so please excuse any errors or mistakes due to talk to text. Thank you for the great feedback.

Regarding the bad juju, that is unfortunate that it can be a dead card for the first few players of the first round but I'm not sure how to better word it as a "use" item. Im not sure adding a rule to put it on the bottom of the deck really changes its effect for that first player since it can just be discarded.

You bring up a good point about the floating eye. It could either have zero attack listed on it so the trap doesnt double its effect or it keeps its plus symbol and it's clearly stated in the rules that a trap doubles it's effect. The second option is less obvious without referencing the rules.

About the blob, I do like the idea of a choice of discarding an item but then wouldn't players always choose the trap or used bad juju when it's in play? That may be a good thing since it won't always happen. Another interesting option would be that the opponent(s) get to choose a coin or item in the dungeon to discard.

For the key and all use items, they are discarded after use so it's assumed that the key is discarded when used to discard the trap, but further clarifying that cards are discarded after use (unless stated otherwise) on all the use items may be worthwhile.

Originally on the chest I had whenever this is unlocked, all coins are scored twice so there was no confusion, it just sounded better that the treasure was worth double. I can see how that could be confusing with the cursed coin's wound so we may go back to just coins are scored twice wording.

How did you feel about the torch? originally we had the idea that it allowed you to look at the next two cards on the top of the deck but then you must discard one and draw one. Either could be bad (two monsters) or could be a very obvious choice if one's a monster and one's a coin or tough choice if two are useful items that you have to decide between.

It definitely is a more interesting card with this implementation but it's also more confusing card, if for example both cards being monster still cause you to be defeated then the players feel cheated or are confused whether they have to draw one or not. I personally preferred this implementation for more decision making but it does make the game easier and a little more confusing than the current effect.

Again, I appreciate all of your guys help and support and am interested to hear your feedback on these new ideas.

let-off studios
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To address the Bad Juju

To address the Bad Juju issue, I simply left the card out of the deck until Round 2 begins. In most cases, there will be more than one player with points after the first round, and this imbalance can help initiate choices brought on by the card.

I've no other opinion on the Blob. I do think it works fine as-is. Removing Items from the dungeon brings up complications, as you've stated.

Regarding the Torch: I'd say leave it as-is to avoid complications. I still support the idea that if it's not used it's worth 1 Coin, but no big deal.

For the Key, text to the tune of: "Discard the Key to disable the Trap or Open the Chest" may be close to what's needed to clarify this.

Regarding the Floating Eye: if you mark it with 0 Attack, this solves the Trap issue. The Blob has special text describing its effect along with having a 0 Attack, so this would reinforce the special cases of these two. It's a very different effect than having the plus sign up there, however. You'll have to decide what you want more.

Safe travels. :)

JewellGames
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reply

So people do not like idea that your opponent would pick an item to discard with the Blob? Too menacing? I thought perhaps it would add more player interaction especially during another players turn to keep people invested.

My worry about changing an unused Torch to being worth a coin is that 1) it would be inconsistent with every other item and 2) it would rarely get played.

How do you know that a Trap has been disabled or Chest opened then? Rotate them 180 degrees?

When the monster's ongoing passive power was "Has attack equal to the number of other monsters in the dungeon." (the old Lich), it was more clear that the Trap would double its attack. Now, its less clear with the Floating Eye and the plus symbol.

Personally, I would rather have it double its effect instead of give it 0 attack which isn't doubled, but I am not sure how else to make this clear on the card without going back to the old Lich wording. Otherwise, it will rely on the clarification in the rules.

JewellGames
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Blob Power

Another proposed option for the Blob's Power that came up last night was,

A: "Instant: Your opponent may shuffle an item back into the deck."

The word "may" is added in case the opponent does not want to shuffle an item back into the deck. When there is more than one opponent, they decide as a group which item to shuffle.

This way, if they pick an unsuccessful Trap, it has another chance to trigger a monster. Or, if they pick a Key or Chest, etc. you still have another chance to recover it.

What are your thoughts?

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JewellGames wrote:...A:

JewellGames wrote:
...A: "Instant: Your opponent may shuffle an item back into the deck."

...What are your thoughts?


I like it. Increases interactivity without appearing too overpowered (at least from this viewpoint). Try playtesting it thoroughly and see what happens.

JewellGames
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Status

Here is the current state of the cards prior to submitting to the Ion Award Contest submission deadline in 2 days. Any last feedback?

Click the image to see a full-size version.

The rules are being updated with card clarifications.

Card powers with the word Enter trigger as soon as they are drawn and enter the dungeon. Card powers with the word Flip trigger anytime the player decides to flip that card over.

The Blob now allows the opponent to shuffle an item back into the deck. The word "may" is included because the opponent does NOT have to shuffle an item into the deck if they do not want to. Also, when there are more than 2 players playing the game, all of the opponents must decide as a group which item to shuffle back into the deck.

Unused Flip items, the Chest, and the Shield will be the common targets but Traps that didn't draw a monster the first time can be selected in hopes that it draws a monster the next time around.

The Floating Eye's passive attack bonus power is doubled when its drawn by the Trap!

After an Enter power resolves, if the total number of wounds suffered is equal to or greater than the player's health, that player is instantly defeated and must end their turn.

An few examples how this works:

The current player has 7 total health. The player has already suffered 6 wounds from cards in the dungeon. The player draws a Bad Juju which causes 1 wound. Its Enter power states that the card can either be discarded or kept to remove a point from an opponent's score. If the player discards it, the power resolves and the player has still only suffered 6 wounds. If the player keeps it, they could remove a point from an opponent's score but their wounds would be equal to their health and they would be instantly defeated.

The current player has 8 total health, 7 base health plus 1 health from the Shield in the dungeon. The player has already suffered 7 wounds from cards in the dungeon. The player draws a Blob and the opponent decides to shuffle the Shield back into the deck. This drops the player's health back to 7 health which is equal to their wounds and they are instantly defeated.

A few different scenarios when using the Key on a Trap:

The current player has 7 Health. The Key is already in the dungeon and the player draws a Trap. In response, they instantly flip over the Key to disable the Trap (rotating it upside down) and prevent its power from triggering. Even if the player decides to continue and the next card is a monster, its attack will not be doubled.

The current player has 7 Health. The player draws a Trap which draws a Goblin (3). The Goblin's attack is doubled to (6) causing 6 wounds, which remains lower than the player's health. Later in their turn, they draw the Key and flip it over to disable the Trap and bring the Goblin's attack back down to (3).

The current player has 7 Health. The Key and the Spider (1) are already in the dungeon and the player draws a Trap. They decide not use the Key and let the Trap's power resolve which draws a Goblin (3). The Goblin's attack is doubled to (6) which when combined with the Spider's (1) attack has caused the player 7 wounds. Their wounds are now equal to their health and the player is instantly defeated before they can use the Key!

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Me and my kids played your

Me and my kids played your game yesterday and everyone of us, from 7 year old to 42 year old, loved it. The mechanics are simple to learn and provide for a lot of strategy for a game with only 21 cards. Keep up the great work.

JewellGames
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Thank you! I plan to submit

Thank you!

I plan to submit it to the BGG database soon but I still need to update the Blob's effect in the new cards. I also need to fine tune the Chest, Key, and Floating Eye wording.

JewellGames
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UPDATE

The power keywords are now Encounter (when a card is drawn) and Use (flip an item over anytime to use).

Wording/Power Changes:

Blob - Encounter: Your opponent can pick a card to shuffle back into the deck.

Does this monster still fit with the power or should I change this to something else?

Chest - Encounter: Flip this card face down. If this is face up, coins are worth double points.

Key - Use: Flip the Chest face up or the Trap face down.

It took me a long time to figure out how to make the Key work in the same way for both the Chest and Trap. Finally, by having the encountered Chest turned face down (locked) until its turned back face up (unlocked), the Key applies the same effect for both cards but with different outcomes.


Also, it makes more sense that the cards be bridge size instead of poker size since they are placed side by side. While I started to redesign the cards, I wanted to update the art as well but haven't found an artist yet.

Here is the new sleeker/simpler bridge design (with examples of real art). Monsters in red, items in grey, and treasure in gold.

JewellGames
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Cards

Here are the new bridge cards without art (except for the sample Dragon) but take note of the new wording on some of the powers.

let-off studios
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New Version

I like it!

The Blob power suits the game. It keeps other players paying attention because they may have an interesting decision to make even when it's someone else's turn. It also fits with the theme, and by shuffling it back into the deck there's still a chance the card could be revealed again. It's not too punishing. That's how I had been playing it in the previous iteration, instead of the Blob sucking up only coins.

Regarding the Key text: I'd adjust it slightly as follows: "Flip the Chest face-up or the Trap face-down before it is Encountered." It uses the game vocabulary to indicate that the key must be used immediately after drawing the Trap, to prevent the Trap's effect.

Changing the Floating Eye to a Watcher allows your artist to be more open to interpretation and potentially less-creepy. :)

JewellGames
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Thank you!

Thank you!

Based on that feedback, I also tweaked some other powers just so everything is consistent and clear.

A little aside, I think face-up/down is used when its an adjective such as "These are face-down cards" but face up/down is used after the noun or as an adverb such as "Set the card face down."



Sword - Use: Guess the monster you'll draw next. If you're right, flip it face down before it's Encountered.

Key - Use: Flip the Chest face up, or flip the Trap face down before it’s Encountered. I used a comma here so that players don't think "before it's Encountered" applies to both conditions.

Bad Juju - Encounter: You may flip this face down, or leave it face up and remove 1 point from a player’s score.

These are now a little wordier, but a little clearer too. Also, I am unsure whether it matters but I am not sure which wording I like more, "Guess the monster you'll draw next" or " Guess the next monster you'll draw".

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