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Is designing new cards worth it?

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Fri, 04/14/2017 - 13:03
harmon89
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Card1.jpg
Card 2
board.jpg

In the current version of my prototype my cards look like the top image. The plan is to eventually try to self publish the game using Kickstarter. With that in consideration would you recommend tweaking the cards to include more artwork, closer to the second image?

The image I'm using in the second card is just a temporary image I found online that I'm using to experiment with layouts. If I went down the more art heavy route I'd have to have a unique image for 120 different cards.

And if you would recommend image #2, what could I do to improve the layout of that card?

Thanks so much for your help and suggestions.

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Fri, 04/14/2017 - 13:30
#1
sheeptree
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Art

I like image #2 better for sure but I'm a little confused as to why you'd need 120 unique images if you go with that layout vs. #1. In #1, were you planning that there not be any art at all?

I can't really say much in terms of improving the layout as I don't know how your game plays or anything. The most important thing is that the players can easily and quickly understand the cards they are holding and art helps with that because it's very easy to distinguish cards that way; not to mention that having art would make your game more appealing to potential players/buyers/backers in general.

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Fri, 04/14/2017 - 15:20
#2
harmon89
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Sorry for the confusion. In

Sorry for the confusion. In both versions there would be 120 unique events, but with version 1 there is no artwork (all the cards would look similar to what you see in image 1) so the fact that there are 120 different events is non consequential. But with version 2 each card would have to have a different image on it since you can't have an image of "David Slaying Goliath" on the event card that says "Daniel in the Lion's Den".

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Fri, 04/14/2017 - 15:44
#3
No Echo Games
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Go for art

I strongly recommend you go with art and pictures. It's more aesthetic looking, catches the eye, and can add an element of imagination to a game. I have a game coming out tomorrow on KS and originally had hired an artist who was recommended.

Alas, the artwork she did was horrible, she couldn't get the images done fast enough, and was way over her time limit. I had to fire her mainly due to shoddy artwork that I probably could have drawn. I was out about $500, but I chalk that up to paying for mistakes and that wasn't too steep a price to pay in the long run.

I hired a new artist, and I made sure to hire a professional. Was it expensive? Yes. Make no mistake about it, but here's what I got for my money. I got someone who's career was artwork, so he knew how to complete images by a deadline, he asked questions and only took liberty when I gave him some, he followed directions to what I wanted, sent me sketches to confirm ideas, and the payoff is some great artwork that I'm really happy with. Just yesterday I got someone to comment, "LOVE THE ARTWORK, it's perfect for your game", and that truly is the whole idea. Artwork can help sell your game, so look at it as an investment, not as a liability.

If you're curious to see the artwork my artist did here's the link to my KS page, as well as all the images he did at my main website. I won't post images of the old artist, but let me assure you it's like comparing Michelangelo to a 4 year old with a coloring book.

http://noechogames.com/

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1565071860/1922142947?token=72c80804

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Fri, 04/14/2017 - 15:53
#4
BHFuturist
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Generically?

I think what sheeptree is saying is that you don't need 120 images if you did it more generically...

Even if you only had one image for each book of the Bible then you would need only 66... and if you did "old and new testament" images it is just 2 images. You might also classify the type of event and have images for that... "Triumph" "Miracles" "Deliverance" "Divine Intervention" "Sin" "Rebellion" and such could be just one image per type of event.

These event types should correspond to the cards use in the game from a mechanical sense.

@BHFuturist

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Fri, 04/14/2017 - 18:39
#5
questccg
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Doubles or tripples

Something to also consider is the fact: Can you have multiples of each card?

Personally this saved me from going from 60 cards per player to 20 cards per player, as I had triples of each card in the upgrade piles (instead of a deck: my game is a Deck-Builder).

There are many games that use multiples, take the most Famous one of all: Magic The Gathering. In Magic, competitive play, players use triples of many cards. The goal is to not leave it to luck so much as improving the odds of getting the right card at the right moment.

Also there is a second reason for using multiples: players have less cards to become familiar with. What this means that in my case, instead of memorizing 60 cards per player, now it's only 20 cards per player. This is a lot easier to remember and seeing the cards come out from your deck is more obvious because you know what cards to expect.

Just some tips, I learned this the hard way. In my case, the price of the artwork combined with the TIME to make it was just too long. So I reduced the amount of artwork by having triples of each card. It meant that my game was realizable and easier to remember the cards and ultimately reduce the cost of making the game significantly!

Cheers!

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Fri, 04/14/2017 - 20:05
#6
harmon89
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Interestingly some earlier

Interestingly some earlier iterations of the game did have doubles of many of the cards. However after much play testing I've removed the doubles.

I do like the idea of making the images more generic so that many cards could share the same artwork. I'm thinking about the background image on the card being based on the 5 regions in the game. Having 5 nicely painted images is much more manageable and doable than 120! Plus, making the artwork based on the region makes mechanical and thematic sense as well. Currently the green vertical column on the left side of card 2 is the only thing on the card to identify the card's region. Having an image to reinforce the region could be helpful, especially for those who are color blind.

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Sat, 04/15/2017 - 00:24
#7
questccg
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Just a side note

Card #2 is ONE MILLION (1,000,000x) times better than Card #1.

Perhaps if you could have 5 regions with art in the Left-Hand Side (the current green vertical column) and use a color overlay (like Green, Red, Blue, Yellow,
Purple)...

And then on the Right-Hand Side, have illustrations based on some kind of GROUPING. I say "grouping" because I'm not sure how your game is sorted.

While 120 illustrations is crazy, maybe 60 or less is do-able.

Like (an example), if the game is grouped by Biblical stories, maybe the Tale of David and Goliath could have five (5) cards. That would mean (based on an assumption), you would have 120 / 5 = 24 illustrations.

Now that to me sound REALISTIC (24 illustrations). And this would mean your cards would need to be group in sets of five (5) cards.

This of course is just an example... But five (5) sound pretty good - now that I see the amount of cards (24 illustrations) that are required (original artwork).

Just ideas... Cheers!

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Sat, 04/15/2017 - 12:12
#8
harmon89
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I like the idea of the left

I like the idea of the left column being artwork of the region with a color overlay.

One logical grouping in the game is the century of the event. For example David and Goliath is in the 11th century. If I went with that grouping I'd have to do 12 unique drawings for the 12 centuries in the game. My main issue is what would I depict for each century since in many centuries you will have 2 or more very different events?

My other issue is that the location of the event is a big part of the game. On card 2 the location is the Valley of Elah. My fear is that the font is just too small, especially since the location is something that should be identifiable even if the card is at the other end of the table. One thought I had was rearranging the stuff in the left column so that the location could be rotated 90 degrees and be written vertically. Is that a big no no? It would certainly allow the font to be enlarged quite a bit.

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Sat, 04/15/2017 - 13:39
#9
sheeptree
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Location

harmon89 wrote:
I like the idea of the left column being artwork of the region with a color overlay.

One logical grouping in the game is the century of the event. For example David and Goliath is in the 11th century. If I went with that grouping I'd have to do 12 unique drawings for the 12 centuries in the game. My main issue is what would I depict for each century since in many centuries you will have 2 or more very different events?

My other issue is that the location of the event is a big part of the game. On card 2 the location is the Valley of Elah. My fear is that the font is just too small, especially since the location is something that should be identifiable even if the card is at the other end of the table. One thought I had was rearranging the stuff in the left column so that the location could be rotated 90 degrees and be written vertically. Is that a big no no? It would certainly allow the font to be enlarged quite a bit.


You can always just put the location on the bottom panel where you have the text "David said to the Philistine..." Maybe right before that text have "Location: Valley of Elah".

You can also try the icon route if you really want it on the left panel but then you'd have to define each icon in the rule book and if you have a lot of locations, that's probably not the best idea.

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Sun, 04/16/2017 - 18:25
#10
questccg
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Some additional thoughts

harmon89 wrote:
...One logical grouping in the game is the century of the event. For example David and Goliath is in the 11th century. If I went with that grouping I'd have to do 12 unique drawings for the 12 centuries in the game. My main issue is what would I depict for each century since in many centuries you will have 2 or more very different events?

Is there any duplication? I mean you say very different events... that sounds like separate illustrations. Maybe the 12 centuries can be captured in the Left-Hand Side with SIX (6) colors, 2 per century. That could be one approach.

harmon89 wrote:
My other issue is that the location of the event is a big part of the game. On card 2 the location is the Valley of Elah. My fear is that the font is just too small, especially since the location is something that should be identifiable even if the card is at the other end of the table...

My thoughts to this could be using ROMAN NUMERALS. Like Valley of Elah = IV. and then you can regroup the cards using numerals.

Just an idea.

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Sun, 04/16/2017 - 18:49
#11
FrankM
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Roman? They don't really get along well.

questccg wrote:
My thoughts to this could be using ROMAN NUMERALS. Like Valley of Elah = IV. and then you can regroup the cards using numerals.

Just an idea.


Given the context, maybe Hebrew numerals? You can use 1 through 14 without hitting any special rules. To the average gamer these would be arbitrary icons, but they'd be thematic.

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Sun, 04/16/2017 - 18:56
#12
questccg
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Hmm... That's a very good point!

I was just thinking MOST people know what Roman numerals represent.

Unless you are Jewish, most Hebrew numerals would be unknown to the majority of people... But I get they don't "work" with the biblical accuracy of the game.

And like you said, they would be just historically accurate ICONS.

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Sun, 04/16/2017 - 21:01
#13
FrankM
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Icons

questccg wrote:

And like you said, they would be just historically accurate ICONS.

In case anyone's curious, those "icons" would be

א‎ ב‎ ג‎ ד‎ ה‎ ו‎ ז‎ ח‎ ט‎ י‎ יא‎ יב יג‎ יד‎

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Mon, 04/17/2017 - 08:45
#14
harmon89
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That's an interesting idea.

That's an interesting idea. It might not work for my game because I have a lot of locations on the board. I've uploaded the current board design to the original post to give you an idea of how many locations there are.

My reasoning for wanting the location on the left panel of the card is so that when you are holding the card in your hand you can easily identify the time period and location of the card. Those are the most important pieces of information on the card.

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