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Vote now for Custom Engraved Dice

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The Game Crafter
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If you would like to see The Game Crafter offer custom engraved dice, vote now: https://www.thegamecrafter.com/referendums/custom-engraved-dice

chris_mancini
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Absolutely you should offer

Absolutely you should offer engraved dice! This alone would put you on par with Panda, WinGo, etc. I'm currently working with Panda specifically because the game features custom engraved dice.

How would it affect your storefront? Would designers pay for the tooling up front, then sell games through TGC.com as usual?

The Game Crafter
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No tooling as this would be

No tooling as this would be laser engraved dice not molded. Molded dice would definitely be cheaper per unit, but if you just need a few dice for testing purposes or to submit to a publisher or reviewer, then this would be the way to go. More details about pricing and such on the link above.

Zag24
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I would say don't bother if

I would say don't bother if the price is that high. (The link says it will probably be somewhere around $4 unpainted, $6 painted, per die.) If I need as few as 3 custom dice, that blows my manufacturing budget completely out of the water.

chris_mancini
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I agree with Zag24, at $4 a

I agree with Zag24, at $4 a pop, very few games could justify the cost. I for one have a game about ready to go which would be perfect for TGC as it uses both cards and dice, but 5 dice are required and that would likely put this "little" game at $40 or higher...and I don't think the game could justify that amount.

The cost savings of laser-engraved vs. tooled is very attractive, as many can't afford to pay $700 per die tool (that's what Panda quotes). The issue comes with perceived value; what would people expect to pay for a game with custom dice, and does your service allow games to remain within that range?

I think most designers who use your service aren't doing it for the money and would accept a slimmer profit margin...but that point is moot if people don't buy because they feel they should be getting more components for their money.

chris_mancini
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Great deal for prototypes;

Great deal for prototypes; much tougher for production and selling through tgc.com. Great point though, I've been mocking up prototypes with stickered dice; I'd love to have engraved dice in my protos!

richdurham
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yes prototypes

Long term strategy, this is a good move for TGC to become a full-on pro manufacturer for retail distribution (ie not just for prototyping). Of course, costs will need to come down - but you've got to have the capability to produce them first!

I think this is great prototyping advance (at this stage), and you're hard pressed to find 6-sided custom engraved dice for less than the $4. (crystal castle and other sites doe about $1 per side, and they won't come inside your packaged game).

Yay TGC

questccg
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Price concerns

Although this is a "concern" for games being manufactured by "The Game Crafter" (TGC) and not one-off production of prototypes, the price is much TOO HIGH.

Hamish Sterling who makes custom dice games (Pocket Sports) recently asked for a quote (RFQ) from his contacts in China and the price for SIX (6) custom engraved dice and painted cost $1.00 USD.

While I realize that the Chinese price is unbeatable, I would think that at $6.00 a PAINTED dice is the polar opposite. It's NOT affordable to be used in games to be sold for production.

Now from $0.17 (China) to $6.00 (USA) we have a BIG difference.

I personally would be willing to ACCEPT a 10x Markup between China and USA. So something along the lines of $1.70 per painted custom dice (d6). That's more than TWICE (2x) the cost of Standard Polyhedrals (d12 or d20 - $0.76) and in my book would be a reasonable markup...

I'm curious to know TGC response - since the quoted prices seem out-of-reach for most games. IF my game has 5 custom dice, at $1.70 a dice, that brings the price to $8.50... This price seems reasonable (under $10.00). You can still have wiggle room for cards and rulebook and maybe some other parts for tracking stats (like clips = $0.13 each).

It needs to be production-feasible (IMHO).

This is just my opinion and is not meant to offend anyone.

Edit: I voted YES - with 11,000+ crafter points. But I'm worried about the pricing...

Update: Since people who make games with dice require DICE... Maybe in the upper spectrum I would maybe charge $2.00 per custom + painted dice. Like I said, 5 dice x $2.00 = $10.00... That sounds reasonable... I don't think anyone would want NON-PAINTED dice. It will make it HARD to read the dice.

Perhaps instead of non-painted, I would offer TWO (2) colors: WHITE and BLACK. That seem sufficient to handle all the dice - and requires LESS administration than having to choose your colors (Painted).

This again is not meant to offend anyone - I'm just sharing my viewpoint.

Update #2: I want to VOTE for the PEARL-LIKE dice in different colors. Not your standard one (1) color dice (NOT like the polyhedrals)... In the picture those are the dice on the FAR RIGHT (Blue pearl, green pearl, red pearl), etc... Those are REAL SWEET!!!

Just to COMPARE = in the middle there is a "Blue pearl" and a "Solid Blue"... I would want the "Blue pearl" as custom engraved + painted dice... They look so much nicer than their solid counterparts...

richdurham
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Dice from china

Hamish would best address this, but I think there's a misinterpretation here about how he gets his dice. Pretty sure Hamish buys in bulk.

To be clear, TGC's painted dice is after engraving, not just painting (which is how the emphasis you put on PAINTED reads when coupled with 'polar opposite."

I agree, this isn't ready for bulk orders with TGC. Not yet, as you noted - it's an issue when manufacturing for mass production rather than prototyping. And as I noted, this is a good foundational step to get to that point where the prices can magically drop if/when production capability increases. I'm not concerned, though. Baby steps.

IOW, don't count on making a mass-production game with TGC that uses more than a couple custom dice. Seems pretty obvious, actually. They are a a print on demand printer. We need to pay for that 'on demand.' Strangely a victim of their success in keeping prices "low" that now we expect total custom engraved and painted dice packaged in the game and delivered for us for an even LOWER price than competitors that produce the same product at the same scale, but only the dice!

For reference, here are some of the competitors I'm referring to:

Dice.co.uk - minimum of 25 dice, 20p starting cost for 1 side. Pretty cheap! Still, minimum print run of 25, and not packaged with your game.

Crystal Caste - also a minimum of 25 dice, $1.00 per side. Scales nicely to $0.42 if you order between 500-999. But now you're bulk, and that's still per side. And they're still just dice, so no auto-package in your game.

Prawn designs - $4.00 for full custom dice on orders less than 25.

various suppliers on Alibaba - Super cheap per die, like $0.05 cheap in this case. But order quantity is very high - and often the product descriptions are jumbled and/or misleading so you'd need to contact directly to get an answer. Here, the top description says min. order of 50,000 and shows d6's but the lower description refers to d12s and order quantities of 100 packs, each of which as 100 dice.

questccg
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Direct from China

@richdurham: like I said Hamish got a RFQ for our "Mech" game which had SIX (6) dice and there was a MOQ of 500 sets.

It's not the same as one-off production. That's why 10x markup seem reasonable. $2.00 per custom + painted dice, in either black or white paint seems feasible.

AND IF you want to ORDER stuff from CHINA, Hamish is willing to help designers and act as a facilitator... Sure he'll make some money - but you don't have to worry about poor quality, managing several factories for different parts, etc.

He's advocated NOT to deal with the COMMON Chinese factories - since they are not the best ones - Hamish has taken the time to build up his network and is a more RELIABLE source than ALIBABA...

And what I mean by PAINTED or NON-PAINTED are ENGRAVED dice that are painted AFTER engraving occurs. Two (2) colors seems like a good starting point (IMHO).

The Game Crafter
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Thanks for the feedback, and

Thanks for the feedback, and also for your CP in the voting process questccg.

$2 per die simply isn't feasible. We don't just make up the numbers, and that's why we posted them. We wanted people to know what they were voting for. Once you factor in the human cost, the laser time, the paint, and the dice, we're looking at $6 per dice. Until we know what we're doing there will be no bulk discounts within the game or even on multiple copies of the game. Once we're up and running we may find some wiggle room, just like we have with our printed components.

The Game Crafter
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Thanks for the feedback Rich.

Thanks for the feedback Rich. We're guessing most people will stick with stickered dice for production, or go to a company that can create molded dice if they need a lot. The custom etched dice will certainly be a premium option on our site, so we don't expect a lot of usage right away. However, for prototypes that have to look great on camera or look great at conventions, this will probably be a better choice for people than stickered dice.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Prawn Designs also doesn't paint their dice I don't think.

HPS74
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Dice dice baby

Yes...it's true. I've been on this forum for 7 years, sprouting about custom dice. Good to see TGC is finally catching up. Perhaps they can employ me as their 'dice man' :)

I do buy/order in bulk, and have done so for as long as I've been making Pocket Sports games. I have used an injection mould, silk screen printing and laser engraved. I have a good relationship with the factory and both they and I know how an order should be completed and prices are favourable because I've ordered over 300,000 dice!

Nowadays, I go specifically with laser engraving for a few reasons, but mainly because it doesn't lock me into to a design like a mould should I wish to change a die face, add a die etc for later reprints.

Price will always be determined by volume, material used, factory peak production times and artwork on the dice. My games generally have one or two words and some have two colours, but they are quite basic.

Quest is right, I can get a very competitive price per dice...BUT...on an order of several thousand dice at a time. Each Pocket Sport game has between 6 - 9 dice and a run of 1000 games means 6000+ dice.

So, as Rich pointed out, if you need a few for prototypes, not for mass production, go for it.

If you want bulk custom dice, I can help you with that.

questccg
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I trust TGC judgement

Well I for one am confident that TGC will make it reasonably affordable.

I'm not TGC but usually games that USE custom dice, have multiple dice. Like more than two (2) dice.

And then you have DICE GAMES which tend to have four (4) PLUS dice... Those too are often custom.

At this point, I'd say maybe TGC can UP their DICE OFFERING, by selling "Pearly" dice instead of the solid matte colors currently offered. Maybe charge MORE for standard "Pearly" D6s... I'm sure everyone will agree that for a little bit more, people will be happier with the nicer dice.

Just an idea...

Update: I just wanted to express that games that use CUSTOM d6s - usually do so in multiples. I doubt you'll find a game with ONE (1) custom d6 (so it's $6.00) unless it's some kind of Party Game... Roll the dice to figure out what trivia category you would choose next.

But for CUSTOM dice GAMES, there are usually several custom d6s.

questccg
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One-Stop-Shop!

HPS74 wrote:
Quest is right, I can get a very competitive price per dice...BUT...on an order of several thousand dice at a time. Each Pocket Sport game has between 6 - 9 dice and a run of 1000 games means 6000+ dice.

And I believe Hamish also has a source for Tuck Boxes and Cards (again in China). And has a very good working relationship with them - since he has had many boxes & cards printed in China...

Plus you are dealing with a Super-nice guy! He'll do his best to make sure your custom game is produced to top satisfaction.

Update: I'm NOT Hi-jacking this thread! Sorry... What I am saying is IF your game uses CUSTOM D6s (like 4 or more) and you need to have the game made in BULK - well then Hamish is your man and he can also satisfy requirements for tuck boxes and cards...

I'm not advocating to use Hamish over TGC services... I'm talking about BULK orders as Hamish has said.

TGC services are FANTASTIC - and I will be selling my 2nd game via their website. I think they are wonderful people... That produce quality products!

However outside of the realm of what TGC does (and they do A LOT), there might be designers looking to have things made in China... And Hamish has the contacts for such production.

Zag24
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The Game Crafter wrote:Thanks

The Game Crafter wrote:
Thanks for the feedback.

$2 per die simply isn't feasible. We don't just make up the numbers, ...


You're welcome. It wasn't meant to be at all derogatory, though I may have sounded a bit harsh. I know you guys provide a good service and expect only a reasonable profit, and I really appreciate all you do. My point was just that I can't see ever using that particular feature at that price point.

On the other hand, I wasn't thinking of one-offs for prototypes. I might invest in that for a game for which I eventually plan to go with a bulk die-cast solution once I go into mass production.

The Game Crafter
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Zag24 wrote:The Game Crafter

Zag24 wrote:
The Game Crafter wrote:
Thanks for the feedback.

$2 per die simply isn't feasible. We don't just make up the numbers, ...


You're welcome. It wasn't meant to be at all derogatory, though I may have sounded a bit harsh. I know you guys provide a good service and expect only a reasonable profit, and I really appreciate all you do. My point was just that I can't see ever using that particular feature at that price point.

On the other hand, I wasn't thinking of one-offs for prototypes. I might invest in that for a game for which I eventually plan to go with a bulk die-cast solution once I go into mass production.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were being derogatory. Just stating that was no chance we could hit that price. And I totally do understand that $6 per die is quite expensive. Hence our apprehension at offering it, and why we wanted to do a referendum to see if there was interest even at that price. Clearly there is!

questccg
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Reasonable price

I think the big issue I have with $6.00 is that it IS $6.00 FOR A DICE.

The perceived value of such an item is way below this amount... To be real honest, the cost for acquiring the raw element (bought in BULK) should be under $0.25...

And then there is paint color. By offering two (2) choices Black & White, you are reducing the amount of paint you need to stock and as far a programming the website to do this - is also reasonable easy. So this eliminates a lot of colors and makes it BASIC but functional.

But there are more costs, like machinery, which also need to be carefully considered. To this I propose TGC does like its Shrink-Wrapping IndieGoGo campaign: as the members to finance the purchase of said machine... And then you don't need to factor the cost of the machinery, the community would come together to offset the cost.

All that remains is the TIME taken by somebody to make the dice. I have no idea how the machinery works - so I cannot speak as to this variable.

However to me, the bottom line is a REASONABLE price, one that takes into account the VALUE of the item. If it costs $6.00 and you TRY to sell it to someone - nobody will buy your game... Everyone will think $6.00 for a dice is an exorbitant price.

That's my take on it...

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