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Anyone interested?

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Redcap
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Long long time ago I asked whether print and play was profitable or not, and since then I have done a lot of research and have decided to make my own LLC dedicated to selling print and play games. I have looked at a lot of different print and play sites and have noticed a blatant lack of quality and professionalism and so am setting my buisness up to compete by offering professionalism to a nich that is under-developed and quite frankly lacking in many areas.

My buisness won't be up and running for about a year due to costs, development, and gathering up sufficient amount of games; however, I just wanted to test the waters and see if there would be anyone interested in future game submissions for print and play?

Also, how much of the revenue would you expect to see from your game's sales?
(I am currently thinking of selling all the games at a flat rate and giving game creators an 80% cut. Less if I have to provide the graphics and revise the rules ect.)

Is there anything else in particular you would like to see from this buisness besides (I sell your games, give you a cut, and manage all the buisness stuff myself...like managing the website, taxes, creating contracts, playtesting, ect...)

One final question. I plan on taking a cut from the sales obviously(Payment for all the work behind the scenes) However, in order to get funding more quickly to get this thing started, if I offered an option of 100% commission for game submissions where the authors paid $100 - $200 up front would that be something that you may consider doing? (Kind of like an investment)

I look forward to hearing back from you all, and if this is something you would like to submit games to and have other ideas let me know, I would love to hear from you.

Nando
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No one can stop an idea whose time has come

Unfortunately, I don't think this is one of those ideas.

In loving memory...
http://www.flatpackgames.com/

Katherine
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Joined: 07/24/2008
Good intentions redcap, bad

Good intentions redcap, bad idea. it seems there are a lot of print & play sites already and a lot of them are free.

http://www.runestoneit.com/~dseagraves/canonical_list.html

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2640540#2640540

GrimFinger
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Redcap wrote:Is there

Redcap wrote:
Is there anything else in particular you would like to see from this buisness besides (I sell your games, give you a cut, and manage all the buisness stuff myself...like managing the website, taxes, creating contracts, playtesting, ect...)

I am disinclined to agree with your detractors, since I think that there is definitely merit in what you propose, although the devil is always in the details, with such things.

I think that a niche opportunity definitely exists, although I would not agree that you should handle the playtesting for games. Perhaps you could offer playtesting as an optional service, but normally, I would think that a game would already be playtested, if it is time to print it - except for perhaps a hard copy or two of a preliminary nature.

I think that a bigger niche exists in the area of being what I will term a facilitator - one who facilitates turning people's board game designs into hard copies. A one-stop-shopping sort of deal, where game designers can turn to you for everything from a decent board for their board game to a wide variety of components and dice.

If you're simply going to be a print type of service, then you might fare better with a print on demand magazine service, more so than just print and play games. Print and play might work well for card games, but for board games, components tend to be a really critical part, I think.

Redcap
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Keep it coming :)

shazzaz wrote:
Good intentions redcap, bad idea. it seems there are a lot of print & play sites already and a lot of them are free.

You are right, alot of them are free... and a lot of them have crappy games too. ;) Few of their games have any type of graphics at all, and few have a good set of instructions. My buisness differs in the fact that customers will be willing to pay because the games are professional quality and creative and yet cheap. For example if a game like bohnanza was available for $5, I and many other customers would be more than willing to buy it, print it, and cut it out. ;)

Also about the flatpackgames, first I have no idea who are what they are and why they had billing issues... their own fault? Lack of understanding of buisness? Bad buisness model? I don't know what that was, sorry Nando: details?

I really do appreciate the critisim but understand when I say I have done my research, I would not be going forward with this unless there was a market, and there is a market; the problem is there are a lot of bad examples. Also understand game producers won't be making thousands upon thousands of dollars; however, sites like rpgdownloads.com net hundreds of dollars for their contributors with good games every year.

I appreciate critism and hard facts, but I was vague I believe; let me explain a little bit more of the idea and if you are still not interested that is fine.

It is not going to be 100% acceptance of games, I as owner and operator of the buisness will only accept what I think is high quality games. So in reference to the playtesting comment, if you have not done individual playtesting before you submit a game chances are it will be lacking and not get accepted into the website. So I guess you can think of it as a board game company that specializes in print and play boardgames.

Also most of the games I am going to look for are going to be able to use common components, dice, cards, plastic chips. Things people can get for cheap. Then if players want a professionally put together game I can offer kits of wooden blocks, dice, plastic chips, ect.

Now quick note, I still want to hear from more of you, or hear again from the three of you. If you think it a bad idea, PLEASE, let me know but give me reasons why you think it won't hold water. If you think it is a good idea but may be weak in certain areas, let me know so I can improve in those areas. If you think it a good idea, let me know what you like about it; ect.

Thanks guys for you comments, they really did help and no I didn't just ignore the critism; most of the critisim has already been heard and investigator so it was legite concerns. In closing, I can't write everything I am planning to do: a buisness proposal would take several pages. But when said "the devils in the details" understand that I understand this point quite well. :)

Brykovian
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Redcap ... FlatPackGames is

Redcap ...

FlatPackGames is the idea of BGDF user bluesea and your idea is coming from a very similar direction. You may want to PM or e-mail him and have a discussion about the topic.

I'm personally in favor of anyone who wants to try to bring something new to a market.

-Bryk

Gizensha
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Just to confirm that I've

Just to confirm that I've interpreted what you said correctly here - Do you mean, essentially, a board game version of what Lulu is to book printing?

If so, there is probably a niche there, yes. Assuming you can manage to come up with a way of getting reasonable costs on single-printing of boardgames.

Dralius
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Brykovian wrote:Redcap

Brykovian wrote:
Redcap ...

FlatPackGames is the idea of BGDF user bluesea and your idea is coming from a very similar direction. You may want to PM or e-mail him and have a discussion about the topic.

I'm personally in favor of anyone who wants to try to bring something new to a market.

-Bryk

Maybe the two of you can team up an accomplish something together that can’t be done by just one person.

Katherine
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Redcap, I do not see my

Redcap,

I do not see my opinion as criticism. I simply think dedicated print & play services are a bad idea.

My resistance to the idea of comes from a personal belief that the majority of people are essentially too busy (or too lazy) to put things togeather themselves.

I am resistant to any business idea that dedicates itself to a single service, it reduces market size. If you plan is to run you site as a hobby & not a business then by all means dedicate it to print and play games.

The suggestion grimfinger made of providing a facilitation service is good. Getting a game from drawing board to prototype can be a logistical nightmare For the ignorant (pick me), there does not appear to be many who offer that service.

I also agree with the point made about playtesting, try not to offer services that are dependant on the cooporation of others or is likely to take a big chunk of your time. If the service has to be withdrawn it will reflect badly on the business and not the individual.

I would not use the proposed service to print and play or submit games. I would definately enquire about a facilitation service.

I would be happy to subscribe to a monthly news letter provided the listed information & links were current. This may be one way of raising start up costs.

Have you watched the last lecture made by Randy Pausch (you tube) it is very good for restoring the confidence when the critcism becomes overwhelming, as it does.

Hedge-o-Matic
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Flatpack is gone?

Bummer. I don't do the print and play thing, but I like to see friends succeed. I had imagined Flatpack to be doing brisk business in my absence, bringing wealth to all involved.

Good luck for all who make attempts at furthering their dreams, though.

This means you, Redcap!

larienna
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Put all your strength at the same place

Is flat pack really dead?

If not, I suggest that you team up with flat pack.

We have discussed a bit about it before. (can somebody find the old thread on the web site). There is a lot of important info in this thread that worth being re-read.

The main idea was that we would supply quality games made by serious designers. Probably most designers on BGDF would publish there. There would be a selection comitee, since not all games are accepted, and the print-out would have to follow some standard to make sure it is easier to print and play.

I really like the idea of having 1 good print and play web site. Then if it works, I can submit elsewhere. It's also easier for the players to find a game when they know there is quality behind. I also found that some companies like Steve Jackson games also have their own print and play web site. So real publishers might also use this idea.

As for if P&P is good. Again, I think that was the 1st thread I posted when joining BGDF. There are pros and cons but they counterbalance each other. On my point of view, the Print and play version could be used to make the game jump into real publishing. While as print and play, you can get comments and modification from the players. When submitting your prototype, the number of sales so far could be a good argument to accept the prototype.

bluesea
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And now a word from FPG:

Quote:
In loving memory...
http://www.flatpackgames.com/

Sniff, sniff…

So where does this thing called flatpackgames stand…

First the site is down because I did not renew with the host yet. Just expired a week or two ago. No hurry to renew right now.

The site’s hosting contract expiring marks a year with very little (read “no”) progress. Why? Well, if you want to start your site here are three things you should NOT do concurrently with starting your print and play side-business:
1. Have a one-year old child in the house.
2. Have a one-year old child in the house.
3. Have a one-year old child in the house.
A bit of an exaggeration, but a lot of free time is sacrificed. And that’s ok by me.

The truer plague this last year was the disappointing and unprofessional behavior of the website developers I tried to employ to do the site for me. (I won’t go into the gory details here.) I do not know how to do web design. I’m sure I could figure it out, but see points 1 thru 3 above for an insight into my free time. Moreover, because this is an e-commerce site of sorts I wanted to have an assurance that the site was set up properly. I did not want the site to get of on the wrong foot and lose any credibility due to security issues, poor functionality, etc, etc. So I was willing to pay to get the site up and running properly and then manage things from there.

(Ok I will go into the gory details….) Over the past year I have talked seriously to no less than 6 designers who all said that they would start working on the project for an agreed sum of money. They all seem to say they will start work in 3-6 weeks. Then after said period of time passes, no one answers emails. Presumably they got another job that pays better. Who knows? Admittedly this is a small project, but when you agree to do a job, you do it. At least respond and say you can’t or won’t do it…sheesh.

Many, many designers I approached wanted $6k-10k to do the site. For what would be a hobby site, I could not justify such an expense. I figured it would cost a few thousand dollars to get the site up. I would also do all the copy, create and format the downloadable files, and I was doing all the art and did most of the site layout (and it's nice if I do say so myself!). I wanted to do a lot of sweat equity stuff. I just needed expertise the site structure and database. One designer suggested using Drupal could save time and money and he was going to do the site for me, but I never heard from him again. So after so many starts and stops, I just stopped for a while all together. I really haven’t even thought about the site in a couple months hoping out of shear dumb luck that a web site developer would just fall from the sky into my lap. (waiting...waiting...)

This is the major reason FPG is not up and running. So if you can do your own programming, you are in business because I agree the interest AND more importantly the market is there. And it would be great to have as an addition to the community.

I feel like I’ve let everyone down. I’m sorry for failing a community I’ve come to love. There really was a lot of excitement generated this time last year. It’s a problem that can be solved very easily by throwing some money at it, but for the scale of what it would be, or at least start as, I just can’t rationalize going so far off budget like that.

Coincidentally, just last week I may have found a real interesting way of making this all come together…but that is top secret right now. Sorry.

The future of FPG? Uncertain, but ever hopeful.

For those that know nothing about FPG, here is what you would find as a mission/intention/aspiration if you went to the site when it was up:

Quote:

Introductions, Site Philosophy, or “Why the heck are we doing this?”

One of the driving motivations for flatpackgames.com is the belief that board games wrap us in a story-bound place. Board games create an opportunity to pause our high-tech lives, take a break from the stresses of daily life, and engage family and friends in conversation and laughter while exploring imaginary worlds, eras gone by, and far off lands. Board games create memories.

But just who creates our board games? There are many publishers and well known board game designers who produce games each year. And they make some great games! But, along with these traditional sources there is a whole group of independent board game designers who work passionately and tirelessly on their own board game creations. And these designers are making some great games too! Unfortunately their games may never get a wider audience than their own kitchen tables. But all that can change! Now indie designers have one common source to exhibit their games: flatpackgames.com!

The goal of flatpackgames.com is to create a marketplace for high quality independent designer board games. flatpackgames.com will strive to showcase the freshest highest-quality, most innovative independent board game talent. We aim to quickly connect indie board game creators directly with board game consumers: games designed by gamers for the love of the game!

What drives us is getting great games by indie board game designers out to you, the gaming community. But just how can you access these games? In a world where desk top publishing is at our fingertips and full color printers are in our homes, let's turn the tables on board gaming! Let's go flat pack! Just download the game files, print them out, put it together and off you go! No shipping! No waiting! Game on! Game now!

Our featured titles, by passionate hobbyist designers, are thoughtfully tested for fun and playability. But that's not enough; tight rule sets are only part of the gaming experience. At flatpackgames.com, we feel that a successful game approaches art, and strong visual design and mindfully chosen illustration are an enormous part of that. The game art can make the whole game experience come alive and capture our imagination. We encourage on collaboration between designers, illustrators, and graphic designers, and insist on careful quality control to ensure that our games provide a complete gaming experience.

You should also know that designers will receive 70-80% of the purchase price of the game! So by supporting flatpackgames.com's indie designers, you are directly supporting a unique community of gifted board game designers and artists committed to excellence in game design.

So, if you know what you like in a game, you don't need a big brand, big box, big price board game. Indie games are in! Indie games are fun! Indie games are here! So go indie. Go flat pack! Try a flat pack game!

Got questions? Got a game? Please contact us: info@flatpackgames.com

fecundity
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About web design: Why not

About web design: Why not write the website yourself and let someone else handle the commerce part? There are two natural ways to do it at no up front cost. (1) Accept payment by PayPal. You would have to manually send files or keys to customers, but that wouldn't be too much work. (2) Sell the games through RPGNow, e23, Lulu, or some other existing vendor. Of course they'd want a cut, but compare that to the cost of designing and maintaining a secure e-commerce website.

Less constructively: I honestly doubt that there is much of a market for print&play games. Gamers who print PDFs, cut out cards, make boards, and supply their own pieces are usually doing it as a craft hobby. There are enough free things for them to build that they have no incentive to pay for P&P game files. (Lots of free P&P is crap, but that's not the point. Most published games are crap. What matters is whether there are enough free games for people who want to build things to keep busy.)

Conversely, gamers who want to buy games typically have more disposable income than free time. They want good, complete games, and they are willing to pay for them. Saving twenty bucks on a game won't be an incentive for them if they have to put in two extra hours assembling it. (Honestly, most adult gamers have jobs that make their time worth more than $10 an hour.) This point is underscored by what's happened with Cheapass Games; James Ernest's offerings are increasingly expensive and now often include bits. There aren't other companies stepping in with stripped-down, supply-your-own-components games.

So the target market is people who are willing to invest craft time but also willing to spend money for the product. Certainly, there are some people like this-- but it's not a huge untapped market.

Katherine
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About the web design, we

About the web design, we googled "web design + .org" and found a fundraising group to develop a web site for our footy club - this was after being given run around by several so called professional services.
The fund raising group had a greater level of commitment because working with public funds they had a greater level of accountability.

about cheapass games, smart move. Offering multiple products widened their customer base and increased their chance for survival.

about 1 year old children, time decreases as age increases - bluesea if you haven't got time now wait till the bub gets older!

bluesea
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shazzaz wrote:About the web

shazzaz wrote:
About the web design, we googled "web design + .org" and found a fundraising group to develop a web site for our footy club - this was after being given run around by several so called professional services.
The fund raising group had a greater level of commitment because working with public funds they had a greater level of accountability.

about cheapass games, smart move. Offering multiple products widened their customer base and increased their chance for survival.

about 1 year old children, time decreases as age increases - bluesea if you haven't got time now wait till the bub gets older!

yeah run around...good description. Not sure I understand what you mean by a fund raising group though.

FYI: besides cheapass, James Ernest and others have this going on as well: www.lonesharkgames.com/

Yes less time as they get older, however you gain a play tester!! So that is a fair trade off. ;)

larienna
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We don't blame you (bluesea)

We don't blame you (bluesea) we all happen to lack of time. Also a project which requires money is always harder and riskier to do.

Quote:
Conversely, gamers who want to buy games typically have more disposable income than free time. They want good, complete games, and they are willing to pay for them.

True, but maybe it's because it's the way the market is done right now. By developing the print and play games, the market could eventually change. Personally, the position of the print and play should be a pre-release of the actual game. You release as print and play, if it works, you publish it. People who have the money would prefer the complete version while those who lack of money will take the print and play.

This way, it will reduce the quantity of crappy games actually getting published physically. Only good games will pass the publishing step. Players would also have a lot of time to give feedback to improve the commercialized version.

It could be very interesting if for example they could eventually sell package of components. Then when you sell your P&P game, you say, this game requires package no8. So if the player already have package 8, he can play your game.

Of course there are a lot of P&P games and many of them are free. So when you ask to sell them, it could be a problem: too much competition. So you need something to pull out of the crowd. I think the only argument we can have is about quality. If we force our self to produce quality games, not just a game we made in an afternoon, it might attract people to come back. which makes it easier to sell other games.

I agree that the situation is not perfect right now, we just need a way to make it works.

Still, a boost in P&P could be done with e-paper. But right now e-paper application seems nothing more than an improved LCD screen. There is actually no e-paper playable cards. At most a board could be done.

dnjkirk
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We love you, Bluesea

First off, this is more for Bluesea than the OP, but here goes. We don't hold anything against you nor do we feel let down about FPG. You were up front about it being a side project, and quite frankly, knowing what I do about your situation (and the similarities with my own) I would have been surprised had you had FPG up and running by now. Time is precious, especially doing what our respective families do.

That being said, I'd like to take this opportunity to nay-say the nay-sayers... well, nay-say everybody, really. A business model is a business model. It is not an "impression" of what the market is doing. The market for a certain product is a small part of the overall business plan, not the sole determining factor for success.

First, in business, there are many variables that are decided by the businessperson upon which the market has no influence, such as the production, product quality, desired/necessary per-unit profit margin, distribution, etc. Costs are mainly in the control of the seller, the analysis of the market simply assists in determining the optimum supply for the demand. If the business model predicts a given range of return and that range of return is within the levels accepted by the businessperson then it is a potentially successful business model. I therefore humbly ask everyone to understand that there are multiple definitions of success, and not all are defined by great financial success.

Finally, one thing that hasn't been done in the world of print and play is CROWDSOURCING. A P&P site that also included a crowdsourcing component in conjunction with a nacent game publishing company might be worth a shot.

I am still holding on to Kulak for FPG.

Scurra
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flatpack...

(Have just made some comments in the P-500 thread, and missed this one, which might have been a better place. But I'm not going to repeat myself!)

I agree entirely that financial success is by no means the only measurement of success in a market, and especially not in a hobby market - and, for all the occasional breakout success, boardgaming still is. (I'm not at all convinced that crowdsourcing is at all useful for the sorts of things being done here though.)

I am glad to know that flatpackgames has actually started, even if real life has got in the way (as it always does.) I am sorry to hear about the woes you had with website design; I know that it's hard enough to get things done when you are your own client*, let alone dealing with contractors, particularly ones you don't know.
*I have so many half-done projects it's getting absurd... :)

So I look forward to you being able to get back to the project and also to contributing work there once it is up-and-running. But don't push its priority above other things that are more important.

MatthewF
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Hey, whaddya know, I'm a web

Hey, whaddya know, I'm a web designer, who loves boardgames, and is interested in the idea. :)

If you don't have something in the works, bluesea, contact me and we'll chat about what might be feasible!

jeffinberlin
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keeping your priorities

I appreciate the fact your 1-year-old was more important than your dream website/business. I have 2-year-old twins, and have a lot less time to design games and contact publishers, but I can always do that another time. And you can always try again someday. Your kids are only there for a short time, and the time you make for them will impact them forever!

larienna
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CROWDSOURCING !?

CROWDSOURCING : what the hell is that?

Ska_baron
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larienna wrote:CROWDSOURCING

larienna wrote:
CROWDSOURCING : what the hell is that?

Crowdsourcing is when a company gets ordinary people to improve its products for free. Like how certain software companies allow their coding to be made public so ordinary folks can create mods/programs that make more people want to use the software. And this is without having to pay anyone to do it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing

and really, wikipedia is a form of crowdsourcing.

bluesea
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Sorry for the delayed

Sorry for the delayed response, but I needed to say thanks for all the kind words. Matthew, I'll put something together for you this week and we can talk. :)

jojo
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Anyone Interested?

In reply to the original question, I think there is potential for a website that offers people a chance to print-and-play a game, and potentially later purchase an actual box version if it turns out to be fun. Of course, there's always a challenge when it comes to providing game pieces that may be required in the print-and-play version, but here's what I'm thinking...

As a game developer, I would like to get my game out there with as little investment as possible and see if it is going to be successful. If it turns out that people want it, then I would like help in getting it published and marketed professionally.

As one who loves to play games with friends and family, I would like to offer them a game that I already know will be fun. But it should have a nice, professional-looking appearance. I don't want to bring out something that I printed on my computer and then use toothpaste caps as game pieces. So, if I could try out a print-and-play version, and like it, then I would like to buy a box version to have around for those special occasions when friends and family are over.

Then there are all those games in my closet that are complete duds. They sounded good in the store, but if I could have tried them first, they would still be in the store, not in my closet.

Katherine
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umm, unless I have completely

umm, unless I have completely misunderstood...

Board games now offers a relatively painless print and play service for designers with qualitity games.

s2alexan
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GREAT idea - if taken all the way

To Redcap:

I think this is a great idea - so much that I finally registered for this new site instead of just lurking. But I would stick really strongly to your convictions of playtesting the games first. I'd even take it further. Remember the game design process is:

1. Game designer invents, playtests and refines
2. Editor (someone who works for the publisher) invents, playtests and designs
3. Design is published and distributed

Many print-and-play sites skip step 2 - they leave it to the designer to give a finished game, and to make sure it's marketable and playable. I think this is always a mistake - in most cases, game designers make very poor editors. If you think you're a good editor, and you'll work exactly like a real high-quality game publisher would (except simply distribute over the web), you'll really have something. But I would take a larger percentage of the profits - I would split it 50/50, for example. I would also offer a really high-quality website (as you suggested), with lots of pictures and play examples. Also offer print-on-demand service for those who just want it right away. And a resource section, with lots of instructions, and the ability to purchase actual supplies (like punch-out cards, heavy board stock, dice, wooden parts, etc.). Even a flash version of some of these games would be amazing, and lead to good sales.

This would all take a sizeable investment, but I think you need to do that to distinguish yourself from the other print-and-play services. Sites with a low initial investment that simply host games that designers have "finished" - well, there's places that do it better and cheaper than you can. Even if you only choose high-quality games, I just don't think that enough. Any site that accepts EVERYTHING and has a ranking system can replicate that same functionality.

Anyway, I think your idea is great - just don't "dilute" it, or do it 80% of the way - take it all the way and it could really be something successful.

apeloverage
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I wonder if

you could somehow combine the idea with selling common game components. Like if you download a particular game you can also get the components it needs posted to you.

lucasAB
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Site details

I was thinking there could be a print and play website that is similar to iTunes. Similar in the sense, you pay one dollar, and you can print the components. The graphics would have to be very good in order to get most people hooked, and the database would need 300+ games to begin with. If the site was appealing, I think this could be popular with lots of people.

Incorperated with the site could be a game component database. Different games could have common pieces like dice, pawns, wooden cubes, etc... When a person buys a game, he gets credit/reward points to order a package of components of his choice. Or he could buy them along with the game to get a discount. So this means there are two purchasing options when buying a game:
download components - 0.99
download and order - 4.99 (includes dice pacakge[link])
All prices would include shipping, so people never worry about shipping.

These are just a few ideas for everyones consideration.

Lucas

bluepantherllc
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Thank you Shazazz...

Thank you Shazazz.

First let me say that I've been toying with the idea of a print-n-play site before Blue Panther LLC opened its doors almost three years ago, but didn't have a clear vision for a workable business model. It's hard to compete with "free", especially when it's just a few clicks away. Then I saw Bluesea's Flat Pack Games and said - "there's something in there, - maybe he'll take one of my designs".

A little while later it occurred to me that the best way to ensure success was to offer something that other sites didn't have. It couldn't be price and it probably wouldn't be breadth of selection. But it could be quality of the games on the site, and it could also be the fact that we could publish the most popular downloads as board games.So we're going to moderate the site actively, and only take the better, already playtested designs.

Fast forward to today, and yes, Board Games Now is launching in November. The site is up although it does not have any PNP loaded yet. Coming soon, as they say.

And we've simplified the licensing end - any submissions are non-exclusive - you can list your game in any location(s) you wish. Once enough downloads are ordered / wishlists are filled out, we will do a print run of the game, for which you would need to get an exclusive license. If one of the big publishers really liked it after BGN publishes it as a board game, we'll work with you on that too. I know that next Agricola or Puerto Rico might be lurking here in one of the BGDF threads, and I want everyone to get their hands on it too.

There's also some discussion here of a playtesting and game design service. I'm only speaking from my experience offering these services for a little while - some people have already tested their designs and are just looking for finishing touches. Others have had a brainstorm, but haven't done the sorting out of what works and what doesn't - they have not a game but a set of ideas all together. We're starting to move away from the "we'll help you design it" into the "we'll playtest it and add pointers and make a professional looking prototype for you". Dealing with a brainstorm is tricking, dealing with a set of rules that have been tested out a few times means the basics are already there.

I'm going to make a sales pitch here for Protospiel and any organized group of game designers/playtesters out there. I went to my first one four or five years ago and those three days were more important in moving my designs forward than MONTHS of work on my own or with local gamers willing to playtest.

SJ

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