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Game design as a "Hobby"

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questccg
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I was just curious about the BGDF members and their response to the question about "Game design".

Is it:

A> A Hobby, something you do in your free time.
B> A Hobby, but you would prefer to do it full time.
C> A Career choice that you are involved in full time.

For me it's A>. I don't think I would want to design games for a living. I also am probably not interested in become a Publisher of other games... I have some game ideas - that I would like to bring to fruition. But I could not be continually trying to think up new games in order to make a living.

If I had enough money (like $500,000) I would invest all of that into a MMORTS for the Star Wars Franchise: "Star Wars: Galactic Frontier". I think the game's IDEA is "brilliant" in that it goes from Micro-management to Macro-management, in that you can ultimately control up to 10,000,000 troops as you move up in the Jedi or Empire ranks. I wrote a 20 page spec. for the game and sent it to LucasArt but they declined saying that they don't accept unsolicited ideas - I would love to find someone who might be willing to try to make it a reality...

Just curious what everyone else's take is...

Feel free to respond!

Update: I also sent the spec to Ubisoft (Montreal) - and never got a response... But definitely if someone wants to read the document because they have an IN- to one of those independent developer studios... I'd be the first one to say: "Let's DO THIS!" Hehehe... LOL

Mortimer
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Also fall under A, but would

Also fall under A, but would like to reach a point where I move to B or at the very least, release a few professional products. I've spent most of my youth coming up with homebrew boardgames, table-top roleplaying games, strategy and war games and even computer game ideas. The furthest I got with these ideas was for a boardgame so I'm coming back to that hoping it might be a good avenue to pursue.

And sure, I dream of having my own company, pumping out my boardgame products, supplements and miniature ranges (but than I dream of having a manor built into a cliff side, perched over a roaring waterfall), hey dreams are nice!

X3M
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Obviously A for me. But then

Obviously A for me.
But then again, B would be awesome. Since that would mean I might finish the first idea. And start working on other idea's.

The sparse free time that I have is already consumed by many other things. And as result, things take so long with my own game. Others loose interest.

And ehm. So did I a bit for a time.

But not all is lost.
If I ever get the simulation working to see win chances of more complex armies. I might get a new list of missions done. Where I am sure of that they are doable and not to easy.

radioactivemouse
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B

I'm in the B category. However, I know that it's an extremely big sacrifice doing so. Regardless, I'd still teach college even if I have the opportunity to go full time with game design.

Dralius
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I am halfway between B and C

I am halfway between B and C now. I am making money but not enough to keep my standard of living if I quit my regular job.

I am involved in the game industry quite a bit but it took me many years to get where I am.

Game Designer with several published games
Occasional Playtester for Mayfair Games
Head demo person for Mayfair Games
Runs Protospiel.org and the original Protospiel in MI.
Member of the Academy of Adventure Gaming Arts and Design
Jurist for the Origins Awards

I don’t think I would become a publisher myself as it takes away from my creative time and it the creation of games that I like the most.

let-off studios
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This is a good question, and

This is a good question, and I've put a fair amount of thought into it these past couple years.

I'm in group A at the moment. I don't see myself ever considering being part of the industry, although I see it in me. Fundamentally, I want my games played by more people than myself and my local friends. Ideally, I would be able to make back the money I've spent on game components, "breaking even" regarding expense and returns, and have the hobby become self-sustaining. That seems much more realistic level of "success" at this point, and I'm okay with that.

I value my efforts in other areas of my life (including how I pay the bills) too much to make a shift to game design and publishing as a vocation.

questccg
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Just BUMPING the thread...

Anyone else like to comment/share?

This is a "community poll"! :)

X3M
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This forum needs the ability

This forum needs the ability to post polls.

This forum needs other things as well that are absent, compared to other forums.

O well. Does it help if I tell you that I know of a guy that considers A?

questccg
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A> is fine with me!

X3M wrote:
O well. Does it help if I tell you that I know of a guy that considers A?

Well I think MOST designers on BGDF are in the A> Category. The opposite is true with BGG where most designers/people don't keep their EGOs in check.

This is just my personal experience, but I have run into BAD CROWDS of people on BGG. Admins don't respond to e-mails, it's difficult to find the right person to contact, people are very critical or egotistical, etc.

But MORE of the BGG designers fall in the B> & C> categories. Just seems a little more *serious*.

Like I said, I don't want to be a Full-Time Designer. I have projects that I would like to accomplish or move along during my lifetime - but I don't want to strictly focus on "games".

X3M
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"No need to spend time on

"No need to spend time on people who are attempting to achive something, some, thing."

The money grabbers must have the experience that there is notching worthwile in the A category.

A category is inexperienced the most.

Just like ehm... you know who... who thought to have a perfect game that just had to be sold.

ElKobold
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Used to never take my designs

Used to never take my designs past the playable prototypes. Never even considered publishing.

Currently I`m earning some $ for designing a boardgame, but nowhere near as much as from my full time job. Nor is there any guarantee regarding the future projects.

Therefore, if at some point in time, I`ll feel that the whole game design thing is 'stable' enough, I might reconsider my options.

But not at this point - we all have to eat something and pay bills. And one needs quite a portfolio to earn his living from game design.

My 2 cents.

questccg
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What residuals?

ElKobold wrote:
Therefore, if at some point in time, I`ll feel that the whole game design thing is 'stable' enough, I might reconsider my options.

But not at this point - we all have to eat something and pay bills. And one needs quite a portfolio to earn his living from game design.

Sounds like you are more in the B> category?! You would want to make game designing a full-time endeavor, right?

As far a residuals are concerned, I'm pretty sure you need to keep designing more NEW games if you intend to make game design a "career". I've seen from one of my artists an actual Marvel royalty check and let me tell you it's not that impressive...

So I'm not sure... I have no ideas about game residuals, maybe David (Dralius) can offer some advice? He's got several games that he has published...

McTeddy
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I'd say I'm all 3.

I'd say I'm all 3.

Technically, this year I should make minimum wage for my board game work and there is additional potential for revenue that may or may not happen. That said, I'm stuck with a full time job because the money here isn't reliable.

I want few things more than being able to do this full time and still eat, but I don't have high hopes that design can accomplish this. If I'm not a publisher, the money is far too small for living and if I was a publisher my following is too small to actually make a profit.

Besides, it is nice sometimes to just be a hobbyist because you can explore mechanics rather than focusing on what's marketable.

Soulfinger
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I am in the A category. I had

I am in the A category. I had considered B, but I realized that the time I was investing would never yield the same return that I can get writing the background fluff up as fiction. The biggest appeal of game design for me was that it was something I could fit between suctioning my daughter's trach and attaching a fresh feeding bag to her g-tube, but as her health has improved, I have more opportunities to get back to writing without distractions. I really enjoy all of the elements of design, but I'm better off generating a property for someone else in another medium with a contractual clause that lets me retain the rights to develop a game based in the IP in the future, should it happen to have some staying power. I still enjoy writing up snippets for the RPG market, and I have materials that are only worth publishing in that format, but until I am generating more income from my other work, games feel more like a distraction that I try to sync up with my drinking binges as a tandem hobby. Game publishing is something I'd like to look into if I'm ever again in the position of needing deductible business losses to offset personal income gains. It would be a great way to generate losses while building up an infrastructure for other ventures.

X3M
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Makes you wonder who here is

Makes you wonder who here is truly C.

questccg
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I think I know

X3M wrote:
Makes you wonder who here is truly C.

The answer is: you work full-time for a Publisher! That's the C> jobs that are out there...

And then you probably get to playtest games from "Indie" designers and work on internal projects such as expansions to existing games and new ones if the boss thinks they are worthy of time (and money)...

Otherwise I think the WHOLE industry is built on the backs of "Indie" designers that only produce a few games in their lifetime. It probably can be said that Publisher do most of the selling and marketing, stuff that "Indies" can only dream of.

So if we consider BGDF to be an "Indie" designer website, then A> & B> are most probably the predominant members of the crowd... Which makes kind of sense.

Also from what I have seen from "Indie" designers who "make it", they become Publishers and try to steal, I mean sell, other people's games...

Maybe?!...

radioactivemouse
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What are we?

X3M wrote:
Makes you wonder who here is truly C.

I believe there are some people here that are.

I think ideally, all of us would like to be C, but the reality is that not all of us can be. It's a huge risk to be C...even I don't want to be considered C because I believe I always need a backup plan, which is what being in the video game industry has taught me.

But being A, B, or C shouldn't matter in this forum. All of us are just trying to do what we love, and that's make games. Sure we disagree and some of us are a little...extreme. But in the end this should be a place where we share ideas, encourage the discouraged, help the willing, and celebrate our victories.

When I see people have successful crowdfunding, I'm happy. When I see them fail, it hurts me...regardless of what I say about crowdfunding (I just say it's not for me...right now).

questccg
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What I have learned

In any company, you need a *special* kind of person. A President, or CEO, needs to have a "fearless" attitude when it comes to business...

Although I own my own company thanks to consulting, I am not a "fearless" leader... let me explain.

I now work for a "fearless" leader. Why do I call him "fearless", it's because he actually listens to ideas that people offer up to him. And then he takes it to the NEXT LEVEL: "Take some time and make me a presentation..."

But that's just the tip of the iceburg. I could never manage an entire company knowing that I need to SPEND in order to grow. It seems logical but I'm not a "spender", I've been taught to be a saver. So when we, as a company, are hiring new personnel, I'm like "What? Why?" But the "fearless" leader knows that IF you are going to need STAFF tomorrow, you need to hire and train them TODAY...

Again amazing qualities that I truly admire... Another example of the "fearless" leader: he actually LEADS when others follow. Our President had a vision of a marketplace for specialized services and solutions. Instead of just "having" the idea, he invested in making it happen. Now obviously the company is not so big that it could make this concept work. But that didn't deter our President... He set out and DID IT! Why is this "fearless" you ask? Because he did knowing we couldn't handle it. Next thing you know, 6 months after, our parent company decides to launch their OWN marketplace. And why is this significant? Because without the example of our "fearless" leader, the parent company who has all the required resources, including consulting partners, solution providers, etc., they are the ones that can make such a marketplace work...

But it took OUR "fearless" leader to show them the way!

I get good ideas every now and then - but I'm no "fearless" leader! It takes a special type of person to be one!...

McTeddy
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There aren't many Cs in the

There aren't many Cs in the industry as a whole.

I've spoken to some of the biggest name designers out there, and about a dozen publishers and honestly... some of them barely qualify. Games just aren't a profitable industry.

Most of the designers that do started in the old days where there wasn't much competition. It gave them a strong start both in money and notoriety. Despite worldwide recognition, awards and a massive fanbase... many still turned to self-publishing to make a living because design alone wasn't enough to pay the bills.

Otherwise, most designers need to work a day job to eat. It doesn't matter how popular your game is, board gamer's are a small market and publishers pay table scraps. The odds aren't good that you'll go full time.

Even most of publishers I've interacted are only a few people. They make a living, but they barely qualify as a company because it's supporting so few staff. Instead, they rely on Freelance and Outsourcing to keep costs low enough to have ANY profit.

Sure, there are a couple big guys like Fantasy Flight or Games Workshop but they are the exception, not the rule.

questccg
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Just a *tough* business

McTeddy wrote:
Otherwise, most designers need to work a day job to eat. It doesn't matter how popular your game is, board gamer's are a small market and publishers pay table scraps. The odds aren't good that you'll go full time.

Well to be *really fair*, Publisher's don't make TONS of money EITHER. They use the traditional sales/distribution model. The group that makes the most is the RETAILER... So Publisher's pay a small royalty because they aren't the ones making a lot of money on the game.

But the retailer has the HIGHEST costs (store employees, stock/inventory, rent, etc.) Or so they say. But I've been to some of those stores and the times are lean... Meaning on one Sunday a store maybe had a half-dozen customers ALL DAY. That's not good at all. So when a store sells *something* they really need to make money on that sale.

That's why I guess you get the 50% markup when it goes retail...

Update: Where is the REAL money? In Crowdfunding! Some Publisher's are now only doing KS campaign for games. With past backers in the THOUSANDS, they have an audience to SELL their games to DIRECTLY.

Soulfinger
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questccg wrote:Well to be

questccg wrote:
Well to be *really fair*, Publisher's don't make TONS of money EITHER. They use the traditional sales/distribution model. The group that makes the most is the RETAILER... So Publisher's pay a small royalty because they aren't the ones making a lot of money on the game.

Say what!? Hobby game retailers have some of the worst margins and highest failure rates out of any retail market. Brick and mortar stores are in cut throat competition with deep discount online retailers, who are making as little as 10% for profit margins, and are sometimes undercut by the manufacturers of the very same products that they are stocking. Now, stores like Target are selling titles like Pandemic and Settlers, which even further marginalizes your typical FLGS, as these were the games that brought in non-hobbyists and paid the bills. Most of the "regulars" just come in to dirty up the place, loiter, spending a penny per hour while driving off potential customers, and then go buy their stuff cheaper online after using the store as a factory showroom. You have to work your ass off for very little return.

The most successful retail scheme I've witnessed was a lawyer in the $200k+ bracket who started a store to ensure that he'd have people to play Warhammer with. He wrote off the annual loss as a tax deduction. Second best was a by-appointment-only store in a $200/month retail space in a rundown, re-purposed high school that a few friends pitched in on so they'd have somewhere to store their crap and to get a discount on their own gaming stuff. They ended up fairly profitable, thanks to the low overhead, but for the first three years (wow, only three), it was just a tax write off for them as well. You can see where I'm going with this.

Successful stores that I've read about make most of their profit on something else, like used console games. Board games pay the bills far better than wargames or RPGs, as I understand it, but CCGs are a very steady revenue stream at about 25% of sales. One store that has been in business for at least 20 years in my area is organized with the board games in front so that the grandmothers and casual gamers aren't turned off by the Warhammer and D&D stuff at the center of the store. They actually moved their gaming tables to a different room on a different level of the building that they lease, which I expect helps a lot when it comes to gamer funk and cries of "Huzzah!" creeping out new customers.

Only someone with a passion for gaming is going to look at that sort of market and think, "Great idea! I totally want to invest my life savings/inheritance in a money sink rather than a CD or a mutual fund!" The thing is, for most people that is a blind passion that defies all common sense and logic. I've seen way too many gaming stores crash and burn in a matter of months because the owner had a vision that didn't reflect the realities of their market.

And 50% markup? Not quite. Margins range between 40 and 50% depending on the distributor, product, and the retailer's sales volume. A mildly successful retailer is probably getting a 40% break on WotC products, 45% on the bulk of their stock, and maybe price matching a few of the games sold at the local big box retailer as a loss leader. Even at 50%, selling a $50 board game equates to about $5 of actual profit once you've accounted for all of the expenses associated with that sale.

So, yeah, direct sales are the way to go. If Fantasy Flight sells a game to a distributor, it'll be for 30% or less of the MSRP versus the 100% gross profit from selling directly to the consumer via their webstore. The problem with most crowdfunding attempts these days is that a) gamers are notoriously bad at business and b) the myopic attitude of orienting the business around a single, limited product release instead of using the initial offering as a platform for launching a sustainable business.

For example, GGG launches its first KS for a licensed Golden Girls board game in which players enjoy postmenopausal dating scenarios. They net a profit. Hooray! End of story. In true '80s reference, Dragon's Lair cartoon or Clue movie style, that's what could have happened, but what they actually did was reinvest the gains on their capital and launch phase two of their business plan. That doesn't necessarily mean launching their second title, an Arthur 2: On the Rocks CCG. Rather, having established a retail presence, distribution network, and so forth, they are positioned to expand the scope of their business. You can see that with FFG. They sell games, but they also sell card sleeves, wooden blocks, and other components. Do other people sell card sleeves? Sure, cheaper even, but FFG cross-promotes their products so that when you buy a game, the rulebook instructs that the cards are compatible with X size FFG sleeves. They up-sell. As I see it, the bulk of these ineptly managed, one-shot-wonder, low production value crowdfund projects are just torpedo boats blindly punching holes in the waterlines of the established companies. It's bad for the market overall.

questccg
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To summerize

Basically even with a higher markup FLGS are still losing money (money pits). Many locals come in, have a look and then shop online for games.

Direct (crowdfunding) is great for personal gains - but bad for the industry as a whole.

Some larger publishers try to up-sell their products with others - but it's not always a 100% match.

Did I miss anything?

My only comment is this: Who cares if you only get a one-hit wonder from a crowdfunder?! If the goal is to get your game into gamers hands - that's your goal. Not everyone dreams of running a FLGS or wants to become a Publisher and then need to work on other people's games.

So I think it allows the consumer the option to decide to buy a game online via a crowdfunder and help support some of the efforts of that designer. That's what is positive about it... IMHO.

Soulfinger
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questccg wrote:My only

questccg wrote:
My only comment is this: Who cares if you only get a one-hit wonder from a crowdfunder?! If the goal is to get your game into gamers hands - that's your goal. Not everyone dreams of running a FLGS or wants to become a Publisher and then need to work on other people's games.

So, your argument, as I understand it, is that James Brunot losing money on the 2,400 sets of Scrabble that he made in 1948 is just as desirable of an outcome for any gamer as Selchow and Righter selling four million sets in 1953? In either case, the game got into the hands of gamers, so Mission Accomplished!

Brunot's initial offering totally equates to the modern day Kickstarter, but getting a game out there to a broader audience is synonymous with sustainable business practices. Even the best games aren't going to stay in print if you aren't growing your business and keeping the product line relevant in an evolving marketplace. Sadly, yes, Kickstarter has turned into a delayed gratification version of Etsy, but the original intent was for it to be an alternative to venture capitalism, a means for entrepreneurs to fund the groundwork for healthy, growing business ventures.

questccg wrote:
Direct (crowdfunding) is great for personal gains - but bad for the industry as a whole.

Crowdfunding isn't even good for personal gains, because a lot of people are, in fact, losing money on it. They build their infrastructure, suffer their setbacks and loses, build name recognition, learn their lessons, and then abandon what should have been viable groundwork for a company because . . . Mission Accomplished! It's like opening an underfunded retail venture, going through all of that trouble, and then shuttering your doors a month before all of your hard work was about to pay off.

ElKobold
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Soulfinger

Soulfinger wrote:

Crowdfunding isn't even good for personal gains, because a lot of people are, in fact, losing money on it. They build their infrastructure, suffer their setbacks and loses, build name recognition, learn their lessons, and then abandon what should have been viable groundwork for a company because . . . Mission Accomplished! It's like opening an underfunded retail venture, going through all of that trouble, and then shuttering your doors a month before all of your hard work was about to pay off.

I would probably disagree. (Though i`m probably biased, with ongoing KS preparation and all)

1) There are exceptions. (For example this guy: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/953146955 or this guy https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/coe )

2) Also, without crowdfunding, some of the more niche games would have never seen the light of day.
Like the recent https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/maxtemkin/secret-hitler?ref=nav_search and many others.

And yeah, sure, there's lots of trash on KS as well (zombicide-coop-miniature clones are especially annoying for me personally). But in the end, it's up to backers to figure out what they want on their shelves.

Buy I can't agree with the notion that having more games to choose from is a bad thing for the industry in general.

radioactivemouse
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ElKobold wrote: 1) There are

ElKobold wrote:

1) There are exceptions. (For example this guy: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/953146955 or this guy https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/coe )

2) Also, without crowdfunding, some of the more niche games would have never seen the light of day.
Like the recent https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/maxtemkin/secret-hitler?ref=nav_search and many others.

And yeah, sure, there's lots of trash on KS as well (zombicide-coop-miniature clones are especially annoying for me personally). But in the end, it's up to backers to figure out what they want on their shelves.

Buy I can't agree with the notion that having more games to choose from is a bad thing for the industry in general.

The exception isn't the rule. I think many people make that fatal mistake.

Truth is, KS is far more of a commitment than people think. It's planning, thinking ahead, preparation, marketing, and (most of all) developing. It's been seen as a veritable "easy button" when looking for funding because some people aren't wiling to do the footwork to actually go through legitimate channels...and I'm not talking about IF the idea is worth the funding or not. It's a blessing and a curse.

Crowd funding is great...under the right circumstances.

Unfortunately, most don't know this...which is why there are so many failed campaigns.

Here are the campaigns that got 0 money: http://kickended.com/archive?page=1

There are thousands more that started but never completed.

ElKobold
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radioactivemouse wrote: Here

radioactivemouse wrote:

Here are the campaigns that got 0 money: http://kickended.com/archive?page=1

There are thousands more that started but never completed.

So what? Where's harm in that?

Even if 100500999 projects fail and we get 1 decent game out of it, it's already worth it.

There are games that will never get published through the usual channels. It's like saying that indie movies shouldn't exist, as we already have hollywood. If Lucas didn't make a movie out of it, it probably wasn't good enough :)

radioactivemouse
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Be smart.

ElKobold wrote:
radioactivemouse wrote:

Here are the campaigns that got 0 money: http://kickended.com/archive?page=1

There are thousands more that started but never completed.

So what? Where's harm in that?

Even if 100500999 projects fail and we get 1 decent game out of it, it's already worth it.

There are games that will never get published through the usual channels. It's like saying that indie movies shouldn't exist, as we already have hollywood. If Lucas didn't make a movie out of it, it probably wasn't good enough :)

All I'm saying is that you need to have a real look at Kickstarter before going through all the effort in doing so, or else you're just running your gears and going nowhere.

What I'm saying is that you can go gung-ho and just do it, or you can be smart, get the help you need, realize what you're getting yourself into, and then decide with all the information possible. I see so many people (not saying you're one of them) just jump into Kickstarter without knowing the consequences...there's your "100500999" failed projects.

But why go through all those projects when you can take a step back, plan your move, be smart about your strategy and do it once?

It's what I did with my game. While I'm really proud that my game is taking off, I've had my share of failures in pitching. With the mistakes I made with previous game pitches, I simply stepped back, planned a lot more, prepared my move, then came back and passed the pitch table the first time I presented Conquest at Kismet.

Not saying KS is bad, I'm just saying be smart.

ElKobold
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radioactivemouse wrote: Not

radioactivemouse wrote:

Not saying KS is bad, I'm just saying be smart.

Well, that statement is hard to argue. And not just in relation to KS, but in general :)

Dralius
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Dralius wrote: I am involved

Dralius wrote:

I am involved in the game industry quite a bit but it took me many years to get where I am.

Game Designer with several published games
Occasional Playtester for Mayfair Games
Head demo person for Mayfair Games
Runs Protospiel.org and the original Protospiel in MI.
Member of the Academy of Adventure Gaming Arts and Design
Jurist for the Origins Awards

Without being notified I have been taken off the OA jury and am no longer a member of the the Academy of Adventure Gaming Arts and Design do to it.

questccg
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Not right

Dralius wrote:
Without being notified I have been taken off the OA jury and am no longer a member of the the Academy of Adventure Gaming Arts and Design do to it.

That's not right. They should have had at least the decency to notify you PRIOR to removing you from the Origins Awards Jury. My concern with all these venues is that the people on them become "pompous" and "self-righteous", if you know what I mean?

Do you know how many people I had contacted to be a part of "The Game Artisans of Canada"? At least 6 different people. And still nobody could commit and say "Yes, we'd gladly like to have you join our organisation."

X3M
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Shouldn't they have someone

Shouldn't they have someone like ehm... a leader?

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