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Classical Element Combinations

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Toa Lewa
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Hey guys. I recently had an idea for a theme for one of my games. In the game, players control creatures that are combinations of the classical elements fire, water, earth, air, and void.

I have been working on ideas for possible element combinations and here is what I have so far.

Fire + Water = Steam
Fire + Earth = Metal/Glass/Brick
Fire + Air = Smoke

Air + Earth = Tornado/Smog
Air + Water = Hurricane/Cloud

Water + Earth = Mud/Swamp

Void + Anything = Void

Are there any other possibilities that you can imagine? Also, I want to narrow it down to where a combination only produces one result. For example, fire plus earth will only make metal or only make glass in the game. Can you help me decide which result makes the most sense?

Kroz1776
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Actually!

I think fire + earth = Lava! Heck yeah!

Air + Earth = Sandstorm

Those are the two I would change. The others look good though.

drunknmunky
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Look into the app games

Look into the app games Doodle God and Doodle Devil. They are both games about combining elements to create more advanced elements just like you are saying.

Toa Lewa
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Combination Update

Kroz wrote:
I think fire + earth = Lava! Heck yeah!

Now why didn't I think of that. I can always count on you Kroz!

Here is what I have now.

Fire + Water = Steam
Fire + Earth = Lava
Fire + Air = Thermal Energy

Air + Earth = Dust
Air + Water = Cloud

Water + Earth = Swamp

Void + Anything = Void

Kroz wrote:
Air + Earth = Sandstorm

I initially placed hurricane and tornado in the combinations list, but now I am thinking those should be attacks. For example, a dust creature could create a tornado, a cloud creature could create a hurricane, and a swamp creature could create quicksand.

Toa Lewa
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Void Combination

Do you think I should keep the void + anything = void? I am not sure if I like this; however, the alternative doesn't make much sense. For example, how can there be empty fire or empty earth? Would void make an element abnormal, like dry water, cold fire, liquid earth, and solid air? I am not sure where to go with this.

Sabash
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Aether

I thought the fifth classical element was Aether. I would personally drop Void as it's not one of the classical elements (or at least, I've never heard of it as one).

X3M
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How about you go with the

How about you go with the Eastern elements?

Air (wind), Fire, Water, Earth, Lightning
So Lightning instead of Void. You can find these all over the internet, just look under Naruto + elements :D.
(Where did you get that Void idea anyway?)

Example Combinations (used in the anime):
Water + Earth = Wood
Water + Air = Ice
Earth + Air = Sand

But if you want to keep it Western, only use 4 elements.Keep combinations as simple as possible and logical. But then again, your game, your input.

Toa Lewa
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Void/Aether

X3M wrote:
(Where did you get that Void idea anyway?)

Void (aka Aether) is a classical element found in many ancient philosophies nations such as Grecian and Hinduism beliefs. Aether can be translated as void; however, I just found out that it can also be translated a lightning. Strange.

In my original idea, void monsters are the strongest creatures. However, void consumes itself, so every turn a void creature would receive damage from itself. Therefore, void creatures would be incredibly powerful but short lived.

larienna
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check the "Magicka" video

check the "Magicka" video game, they have 8 elements and makes combinations.

yes elements depends on culture

Western: Earth, Fire, Water, Wind
(Option to add darkness and light, can also be made a pentagram by Adding a 5th element which can be good or evil, or body or mind.)

Chinese: Wood, Metal, Air(or wind), Fire, Water
Japanese: Air (or wind) ,fire, water, earth, void (ex: Legend of the 5 rings)

Kroz1776
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Wikipedia Time

Based off information from Wikipedia about Aether, or your void, an alternative would be,

  • Aether + Fire = Light
  • Aether + Air = Space
  • Aether + Earth = Asteroids?
  • Aether + Water = Dark

Another set of options would be since Aether is linked to space and the motion of the planets, you could make it like this,

  • Aether = Void
  • Aether + Fire = Stars
  • Aether + Air = Gas Giants
  • Aether + Earth = Rock Planets
  • Aether + Water = Ice Planets

The above list deals with elemental creatures from the different types of planets. These two aren't my favorites though.

  • Aether = Void
  • Aether + Fire = Light
  • Aether + Air = Dry Ice
  • Aether + Earth = Metal
  • Aether + Water = Ice

What I did is I took the coldness of space and applied it to each of the combinations. Fire, that's a bit tough, but I figured light would be a good one there. Cold CO2 is dry ice so why not that for air? Metal seems emotionally cold and also it can get really cold as well. Then, well cold water being ice was a bit too easy. Then though, to finish up everything, you can give each of these a space theme to the creatures themselves. That way they tie in better with that aether/void part of their makeup!

Kroz1776
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*Shakes Fist!*

Stupid double posts...I only posted once and then went back to edit...shakes fist

Yamahako
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Aether is also Latin for

Aether is also Latin for Heaven, and Sky.

Corsaire
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I was thinking what if void

I was thinking what if void removes the material but leaves a conceptually related energy behind:
Void + Fire = Radiation
Void + Air = Lightning
Void + Water = Plasma
Void + Earth = Gravity

Being unrooted in the physical element that could fit the initial high strength + decay over time.

Kroz1776
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Space!

Yamahako wrote:
Aether is also Latin for Heaven, and Sky.

Yup, and combined with the fact that it was also central in early theories of gravity and celestial objects orbits, I thought space would be a good way to go.

Kroz1776
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Fact: You Can Sell Your Plasma for $50 a Week ;)

Corsaire wrote:
I was thinking what if void removes the material but leaves a conceptually related energy behind:
Void + Fire = Radiation
Void + Air = Lightning
Void + Water = Plasma
Void + Earth = Gravity

Being unrooted in the physical element that could fit the initial high strength + decay over time.

What's funny about this is that Lightning actually produces plasma! This idea does have merit.

GuruForge
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attacks

If what the OP was going for was spells/attacks using elements, then working with Corsaire's combos you could get:
Void + Fire = Supernova, Spontaneous Combustion
Void + Air = Suffocation
Void + Water = Drown, Decay
Void + Earth = Entomb
Although, these seem on the darker side of spells...

Toa Lewa
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Combination List

Thanks for the replies everyone. Some good ideas have been shared. Here is my fairly finalized list of elements and combinations. Please feel free to critique it. If you have a better idea, please share.

Elements:

Fire
Air
Water
Earth
Aether

Combinations:

Fire + Water = Steam
Fire + Earth = Lava
Fire + Air = Lightening
Fire + Aether = Light

Air + Earth = Dust
Air + Water = Cloud
Air + Aether = Void (aka vacuum or space)

Water + Earth = Mud
Water + Aether = Darkness

Earth + Aether = Metal

X3M
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I am sorry, but most don't

I am sorry, but most don't even make sense to my feel.
Most players wont know what Aether really would be. Some might think it is the air. It is in some games.
Let alone, the combinations.

A void can add to ones imagination. So does electricity.

Toa Lewa
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Fact vs. Fiction

X3M wrote:
I am sorry, but most don't even make sense to my feel.

I understand. Not everything makes sense to me as well. The combination that I like the least is fire + air = lightening. However, I did not make this up. I found multiple sources stating that this is the classical combination.

You see, I'm trying to stay true to ancient science but make things logical as well. I don't think that this is entirely possible since the five element system is scientifically inaccurate; however, I'm trying to balance fact with fiction, and this is a difficult feat.

Toa Lewa
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Aether Description

X3M wrote:
Most players wont know what Aether really would be. Some might think it is the air. It is in some games.

That is a good point. I am not quite sure what Aether is either. What little information I can find on it is mostly speculation (which is logical since it doesn't actually exist). However, I don't think this would be a problem if I gave a description of Aether in the rulebook (probably in the introduction).

In my mind I think of Aether as a substance that is neither hot nor cold, dry nor wet, and neither solid, liquid, gas, or plasma. Aether is "other", and Aether is well... Aether. Being different than the other elements, it belongs in its own group. I kind of picture it as energy; however, I don't think of is as electricity. I kind of think of it as a raw unrefined power.

In my mind, Aether has properties unlike any of the other elements, and it either removes or amplifies good qualities when in combination with other elements. For example, when Aether is combined with fire it creates light. When combined with earth, Aether creates metal (think gold and silver). In these cases, Aether amplifies the good characteristics and creates something desirable. In the case of water and air, Aether completely removes good qualities and leaves behind only shadow and void.

X3M
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Then why the 5th element? If

Then why the 5th element?

If you take a look at Avatar, you have 4 elements.
And each have advanced states. I think 1 good and 1 bad. (Yin and Yang)

Water for example can give blood bending (bad) and healing (good).
Water also could be frozen or boiling (they didn't show boiling, but it melts a lot)
Another Yin and Yang.

A combination of 2 elements: Water with Air are exactly clouds. 2 elements that are mixed, and you can bend this "new" element by using the 2 element bending together.
Maybe you can do something like that, from that "Avatar" perspective.

The examples that you have given until now. It is as if you are trying to look from different perspectives that makes 1 side illogical while the other side sounds logical. But also the other way around.

On a side note:
Not all the ancient stories are true. Look at them as if the people back then where in search for the 5th element because they only had 4. In the east they kinda succeeded.

There are also only 4 known states for matter:
Solid = earth
Liquid = water
Gas = air
Plasma = fire
(That is why fire and lightning(true plasma by electricity) are regarded in the same class, and since technically fire is a reaction which produces heat while plasma is the result of heat. They are separated in the eastern elements of 5)
But chances are very likely that the 4 elements are derived from the 4 known states of matter. (There are even more states, but these 4 are seen in ancient times)

Toa Lewa
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So would you recommend

So would you recommend dropping Aether from the game and just going with the four elements? It would eliminate a lot of difficulties.

X3M
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You could always add it back

You could always add it back with an expand.

I have dropped over 80% of my game for a first go. Another 10% for my second go.
There is need for a basis that is understandable for all players to learn and play.
I always can put things back when needed, with an expand.

So yeah, I suggest you drop the 5th element until you are absolutely sure what it should be. But that is just my opinion.

The difference between our games is; you don't know yet what you will add. While I already made definite possible expansion plans.

It also helps to view things from different perspectives, and gather as much information as possible. Then you can make a choice by simply discarding the bad suggestions and keeping the good ones. So here is another one:

Maybe this link will help:
http://www.astro.com/mtp/mtp82_e.htm

It puts the 4 elements into the corners of 2x2 states: Wet/Dry and Hot/Cold
Air = Wet and Hot
Water = Wet and Cold
Earth = Cold and Dry
Fire = Dry and Hot

They also add some other stuff. A state of mind. So therefore I also thought of a cartoon series.
Captain planet, the 5th element is Heart.
While in some religions, the 4 elements combined gives you Heart.

agentsauce
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combinations

If you do go with only the 4 "classical" elements, here are my combinations:

Fire+Water=Steam
Fire+Wind=Lightning
Fire+Earth=Magma
Water+Wind=Ice
Water+Earth=Wood
Wind+Earth=Sand

Kroz1776
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Stop! It's Wiki Time!

Here's some of the stuff on Aether from Wikipedia.

Quote:
[Aristotle] noted that the four terrestrial classical elements were subject to change and naturally moved linearly. Aether however, located in the celestial regions and heavenly bodies, moved circularly. In Aristotle's system of classical elements, aether had none of the qualities the terrestrial classical elements had. Aether was neither hot nor cold, neither wet nor dry. Aether did not follow Aristotelian physics either. Aether was also incapable of motion of quality or motion of quantity. Aether was only capable of local motion. Aether naturally moved in circles, and had no contrary, or unnatural, motion. Aristotle also noted that crystalline spheres made of aether held the celestial bodies. The idea of crystalline spheres and natural circular motion of aether led to Aristotle's explanation of the observed orbits of stars and planets in perfectly circular motion in crystalline aether.

Thus Aristotle postulated that Aether only existed in the heavens...aka space. That's why Aether + Fire = Light. I figured if your game is basing itself off of elemental creatures, that Aether (space) + Fire (sun) = Light I believe this isn't a hard jump.

Aether (space) + Water (ocean) = Darkness. Often times I've heard space compared to a vast ocean. Well, it is a vast and very dark ocean to be sure.

Aether + Air = Void. Wind + Space reminds me of the forcefullness of a vaccuum and that is was space/void is, a vaccuum. This one makes perfect sense.

Aether + Earth = Metal is a bit harder and I must admit, this one when I orginally thought of it was already a tough kinda sell. Many times in fiction though, we read that some space rock fell down to the planet and it had this super awesome metal on it that could cut through diamond and steel as if it were butter, and so on. Well this was my inspiration for suggesting this.

Now that I've more fully explained them, this is a lot to learn about because most people don't know what Aether is. Many will think it's air, heck Plato said it was just a more translucent air. I agree with whoever said this might be best used as an expansion. As an expansion you can more easily single out Aether. As people pick up the expansion, they'll be better able to focus in on the expansion which will help them understand your concept of Aether.

P.S...so in games where you have Ether potions (this is just Aether spelled differently)...what exactly are you drinking...space juice? o.O

X3M
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Kroz, you have given a very

Kroz, you have given a very clear view on the subject Aether. The way you describe things makes sense.
And in the cartoon series Avatar, they even have this space rock melted to a sword.

Aether with:
Fire: In quantum mechanics, light is a particle that "orbits" itself.
Air: Tornado's have some sort of vacuum in the middle, and they "orbit" themselves.

You almost would think that there was this being explaining things to humans in ancient times. Although, Water and Earth in combination sounds less logical.

Kroz1776
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X3M wrote:Kroz, you have

X3M wrote:
Kroz, you have given a very clear view on the subject Aether. The way you describe things makes sense.
And in the cartoon series Avatar, they even have this space rock melted to a sword.

Aether with:
Fire: In quantum mechanics, light is a particle that "orbits" itself.
Air: Tornado's have some sort of vacuum in the middle, and they "orbit" themselves.

You almost would think that there was this being explaining things to humans in ancient times. Although, Water and Earth in combination sounds less logical.

Those last two are more troublesome. They do tie in...sorta, but they do tie in better than anything else that I have thought of so far. Although the Aether + Water does have one more argument for it. Fire and water are kind of polar opposites, so Aether + Fire and Aether + Water become polar opposites as well! Now that I mention this, this is even true of Metal and Void. Void is a vaccuum in space where as metal is one of the most solid masses out there. Thus they are almost polar opposites in this regard.

Toa Lewa
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Expansion

Bravo Kroz! I think your explanation of the Aether combinations was very logical. Your logic was much better than mine!

Kroz wrote:
I agree with whoever said this might be best used as an expansion. As an expansion you can more easily single out Aether. As people pick up the expansion, they'll be better able to focus in on the expansion which will help them understand your concept of Aether.

I think that is a good idea; however, I don't think my game mechanics will work very well with this. In the game, each element has a weakness.

Water is weak against earth

Fire is weak against water

Air is weak against Fire

Aether is weak against Air (which kind of explains why Aether isn't often found on planet earth since our atmosphere blocks it out)

Earth is weak against Aether

If I don't include Aether in the base game, then earth would have no weakness. In addition, Air would be weaker since it would not have something it is really strong against.

I could make earth in the base game weak against air and include a rule change when the expansion pack is included (earth being weak against Aether). However, this would create an inconsistency between the base game and the expansion game. Do you have any suggestions to prevent this?

Kroz1776
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A Penny for my Thoughts?

If that's the way your game is set up then it is probably best to include Aether in the base game then.

This would be too complicated in my opinion, but having the combinations also have different things their good against and bad against would also be cool. Light > Dark > Void > Metal > Light...etc. As I said, I think this may be a bit too much.

A question I must ask is that for the combinations, will there be a primary element?

Quote:
Bravo Kroz! I think your explanation of the Aether combinations was very logical. Your logic was much better than mine!

Awww...shucks...you shouldn't have!

Oh! To add on, Aether being good vs. earth makes sense in that Aether is the root cause of the circular orbit of planets. While it is technically crystalized Aether that forms a barrier between it and the Earth (technically is the wrong word since this is all debunked theory) Air is a suitable substitute thus forming the premise that air beats Aether!

BTW, Toa Lewa is best Toa!

Toa Lewa
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Kroz wrote:BTW, Toa Lewa is

Kroz wrote:
BTW, Toa Lewa is best Toa!

Agreed! I love Toa Lewa, but my second favorite is Kopaka. I think I drew some inspiration from Bionicle while brainstorming for my game. However, I didn't want to use the elemental system that Bionicle used (fire, water, air, earth, ice, and rock). I just don't consider ice or rock as elements since ice is formed from water and rock is very close to earth.

Kroz wrote:
A question I must ask is that for the combinations, will there be a primary element?

I don't know. Can you think of any benefits of having a primary element?

Kroz1776
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*Shrugs Sholders*

I don't know...but I was asking a different question in a round about way. I'll clarify now.

In your game, how will you determine which combination is good against which? Will it be like Pokemon in that you'll combine weakness and resistances to figure out new ones? Will it be that a primary element will determine these things while the secondary element will merely unlock new attacks/powers?

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