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Making a ccg playable an out of the box game ( like Epic card Game for ex.)

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larienna
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I have many duel master cards, and it's hard to find players to play. One thing did in the past is to make custom deck, and simply give decks premade deck to people so that they could play immediately. That is the easier way I found to do it.

But I was wondering if there was other ways?

The problem is that there are many ways to make a deck, and most ccg will try to make combinations, so there are no default deck that could be assembled. Many valid deck are possible.

The only drawback is that CCG are flagged, and will sometimes not get played by certain players. So I was wondering if there was a way to turn a CCG into a non-collectible card game a bit like the Epic card game for example.

In Epic, each card is unique, that is a starting point for the construction of the deck since it cannot be based on a strategy.

I'll also have to filter out cards that are dependent on a card property, since the deck will not be mostly coposed of those cards.

questccg
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The problem with CCGs...

Even if YOU design a "starter" deck from random booster cards, only YOU will understand HOW to play with that deck. What I am trying to explain is that given a deck, when you construct it, you create a way of playing with the deck optimally.

I'll give an example:

A few years ago while visiting a friend, one of his other friends showed up and was asking to play Yu-Gi-Oh! Of course none of us (besides him) had played before. What did he do? Ask us to choose one (1) of two (2) decks he had constructed.

The problem was, I didn't know what the strategy of the deck was -- so obviously he won the game once he got his super-powerful combo on the playing table. I on the other hand didn't know HOW to use my deck to create a strong combo.

The bottom line is this: in either case he would know how to beat me using either one of his decks. Why? Because he was the one who constructed them...

So you see, it's not very fair.

In the TCG ("Trading" Card Game) that I am currently working on... I'm keeping it simple:

  • Two (2) one (1) player box sets, each with their own custom "starter" decks. In total 30 cards per box and therefore 60 cards for 2 players.

  • Booster may be bought online - but they are fixed boosters (not random). You know what cards you will be getting if you have purchased that booster previously.

  • The strategy to WIN the game is NOT within the cards (your deck). It is defined on your Player board. Once you understand you "Player board", you can understand HOW to win the match.

  • Ultimately there will be nine (9) player box sets. Each with their own Lord and his stats which define the Victory Points (VPs) needed to win the match.

So the problem of understanding YOUR deck ... is the challenge. If that is REMOVED from the Deck (and placed into a Player's board) well then it becomes easier to explain HOW to WIN the game ... without saying: "Well it depends on each player's deck." If it depends on the deck, this is like trying to explain how you "constructed" the deck. Something difficult to say the least.

But if you can explain it in terms of a Player's board and VPs... It becomes much easier to grasp how you should play the game.

I know it's not bulletproof. You still each have a deck of 30 cards that each have stats and abilities. The stats and knowing what are your strongest cards is more apparent.

But the abilities available on each card ... can make it still challenging too... So it's still not 100%! You'll still feel like a beginner until you've played a few matches using that deck.

Fri
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MTG Cube draft

I participated in magic cube draft. Explained here:

https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Cube_Draft

Some basic concept of how the game is needed. As a novice magic player with some coaching I was able to construct a competitive deck.

larienna
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I don't want any deck

I don't want any deck construction. The decks must be ready to play.

I agree with the strategy of deck this is why I want to avoid making strategy decks to make them more versatile and balanced.

And the only way I see I can do this is by making every card in the deck unique.

questccg
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I think it's possible

larienna wrote:
...I agree with the strategy of deck this is why I want to avoid making strategy decks to make them more versatile and balanced.

And the only way I see I can do this is by making every card in the deck unique.

Well I don't see why every card must be unique. In my TCG, I am using doubles and triples of cards too.

Basically I think you need to EXAMINE each card and see if it has the potential for unbalancing the game. Mostly what this means is that you need to follow the BASICS of the game and introduce cards that are mostly about "Monsters" (like my own TCG). The "core" comes ONLY with "Monsters".

You can add like six (6) Relics or Hexes to your deck -- seeing as you only need to win 12 battles. So double (2x) that is 24 cards, leaving you with 6 cards that you can "construct" with. I haven't reached that point yet... We'll see what kind of cards are needed for balancing.

If it was Magic ... well I would FOCUS on "Monsters" and limit the Enchantments, Artifacts and Instants. Each of those cards needs to be limited... OR both players have the SAME of THOSE cards... Normally the things that are "useless" cards could be good for balancing the game...

Things like "Gain Flight & +2 Attack".

Normally nobody would waste time putting such a card into his DECK. But if the FOCUS is on "Monsters", such a card "could be useful"...

You'd have to SIMPLIFY the game a lot.

BUT I think it's possible... Just you as the deck creator need to make certain the decks are balanced and that there are no "overly powerful" other cards.

Definitely possible.

larienna
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Quote:Well I don't see why

Quote:
Well I don't see why every card must be unique.

If each card is unique, you cannot force a strategy into the deck. Or at least, it is much more difficult. It also prevent the situation where a player would have built the deck differently. Finally, when you have incomplete ccg collection, it makes it easier because you could be lacking doubles.

The balanced could almost be only done mathematically and it could work. Like balance ratio of monster/spells, balance casting cost, balance the number of blocker monsters, etc.

The strategy of the deck would be in fact the strategy of the whole color suite.

questccg
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Why does everything have to be mathematical???

larienna wrote:
If each card is unique, you cannot force a strategy into the deck...

I don't think having multiples of cards "enforces" a "strategy". It's all got to do with probabilities. If you have 2 or 3 of "Monster Y", it just means you can play that monster quicker because the ODDS are in favor of drawing that card...

larienna wrote:
Finally, when you have incomplete ccg collection, it makes it easier because you could be lacking doubles.

Ok that makes a lot of sense.

larienna wrote:
The balanced could almost be only done mathematically and it could work. Like balance ratio of monster/spells, balance casting cost, balance the number of blocker monsters, etc.

The strategy of the deck would be in fact the strategy of the whole color suite.

I don't know why everything needs to be "mathematical"... Like I said SIMPLIFY the game by NOT relying on different strategy per color. Have only ONE (1) strategy and it's "Monsters/Blockers" is the simplest solution. And have "weak" cards that affect those monsters too... The balancing can be done by itself. "Weak" cards lead to effects in the Deck but nothing overly too powerful to break the balance...

Something easy like that...

let-off studios
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Drafting Process

I like the Cube Draft formula that Fri described above. I think that's a solid base for brand new players as long as there's a more-experienced player coaching them over their shoulder.

Were I in charge of putting together a cube, then I would further categorize the cards into "Monster," "Defense," "Buff," and so on, to allow less coaching and more personal decision-making.

The same principles can be applied to any card-driven game of this type, I think. If the veteran player can categorize their card assortment with in-box dividers - like a Dominion insert, for example - then all the coach would need to do for people to start is point out a set of essential starter cards (in MtG it would be a set of matching Land cards, or perhaps Land cards of two colours), and then set a guideline as to the size of a player's chosen deck.

This would attempt to strike a balance between allowing for maximum player choice in developing their own understanding and strategies of the game, while at the same time not railroading them on a specific strategy or "proper way to play the game."

I would suggest that when someone plays a game for the first time, particularly a competitive card game, there's no reason they should go into a first match completely understanding everything about it. It's normal to not win a first MtG match, isn't it? Each game is a learning experience, isn't it? And a beginner's chosen deck doesn't necessarily have optimum balance, especially when compared to that of a veteran. I recall learning about different card combos and things either on the fly, or afterward when I reflected on the outcome of the match. The more I played, the deeper and broader my understanding became.

In my opinion, striving for optimum mathematical balance is wasted effort when you're depending on a beginner to maximize the game mechanics. Understanding of the game will emerge as time goes on and matches are played. It's not completely the designer's responsibility to see players become better at a game. Set the framework for it, and proficiency will follow.

larienna
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Quote:I don't know why

Quote:
I don't know why everything needs to be "mathematical"

I need to design the decks in a way that would prevent another player from saying "I would have designed a better deck". If I focus toward a strategy, a player could have done things differently. If I design a "generic deck" with only unique cards, the possible new decks that could ahve been created under those same constraint are much more limited. It consist in replacing a few cards with a few other, but not in reconfiguring the whole deck.

Since all players will use the same deck construction method, the game will be balanced. Still, I have a control on the card selection and could discard out unbalanced cards or very situation specific cards.

Corsaire
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What is the play experience

What is the play experience you are solving for?

I think the solutions vary based on that. If it is simply a use for all those cards, then maybe a dexterity game is the answer.

If it is about giving a new player an experience of the game, then constructed decks of differing skill levels that include an intro/guide card could be a better solution.

If flavor plus choice without construction, then something more like smash up where you pick two or three units of cards and include them could be better. (For some reason, I'm thinking they did just that with the packaging of the Kaijudo version)

But to have a themeless randomly constructed deck seems to be the least best solution. Not representative of the game and maybe not fun.

questccg
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Another quick comment

larienna wrote:
...In Epic, each card is unique, that is a starting point for the construction of the deck since it cannot be based on a strategy...

"Epic" is really not a FUN game. Too many "terms" to memorize and just too "random" for my personal tastes. I was discussing the game with one of the store clerks and she said she liked "Hero Realms" but not "Epic". And I agree... "Epic" just doesn't get me interested in playing the game.

Hero Realms is extremely unbalanced... If you manage to buy some of the market cards early and add them to your deck, you can do some serious damage to your opponent rather quickly too!

Of course that is "random" too... It varies on the cards that show up in the Market. If some of those "unbalanced" cards appear early, well the player who gets them has a serious advantage unless his opponent manages to score an equally effective card too.

Just saying, don't model "Epic" -- to me it's kinda boring...

larienna
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I have the game but I have

I have the game but I have not played enough yet.

It's true that some cards could be unbalanced.

Totally agree with the keyword mechanism. Bad selection of keyword and we are constantly searching the manual.

What I like about epic, is the overpowerness of the game It reminds me of master of magic. This is due to most cards having the same cost to play.

Play play example: Turn 1, I summon dragon of doom, Next player, I mind control your dragon, Turn 1, I meteor shower the dragon you stole me, etc.

Hero/star Realms are OK games, for a quick play, but they quite get boring after lot of repeated plays. I played the video game a lot, and now feel less inclined to play. I personally love the special campaign scenarios with specific objectives, rather than just defeating your opponent.

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