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Different level of dice

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izn
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dice.png

Hi BGDF! I have this combat mechanic using dice to match the symbols on a card, each player will roll 6 dice simultaneously with a time limit (think of Escape: The Curse of The Temple). The first person who match the symbols on the card will inflict damage as shown on the card to other players.

But In this game there are 3 type of characters (or classes), say type A, B, and C. Type A has a better probability than B, and B is better than C, while C is the worst.

If I want to use 6 sided die, what faces should I put in each type so the probability is better in A, and bad in C?

I was thinking of something like this:
A: 0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3.
B: 0, 0, 1, 2, 3, 3.
C: 0, 0, 0, 1, 2, 3.

Is it balance enough or the player with type C will have much difficulties when facing type A? To balance this, type C's health point is bigger than type A.

FrankM
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1, 2, 3, go!

With those faces, A is twice as fast (on average) at matching symbols 1 and 2, while B is twice as fast at matching symbol 3.

Matching one symbol will lead to lots of ties because more than one player is likely to match on the first roll. If there are only two symbols to match, I think C will get creamed fairly regularly because it's still mostly about how the first roll works, but now the odds start to matter. Matching six symbols will get tedious as players roll their last die or two repeatedly. So there's some sweet spot in between, and I'd recommend playtesting rather than trying to use probability theory.

Just time yourself as each player rolling against a representative sample of cards, and do that enough times to get a reasonable feel for what's typical.

JewellGames
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output 1d{1,2,2,2,2,3}output

output 1d{1,2,2,2,2,3}
output 1d{1,1,2,2,3,3}
output 1d{0,1,2,2,3,4}

These all have an average roll of 2 but different deviations from the mean (first has lowest to last with highest).

X3M
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Don't get confused by the

Don't get confused by the fact that he uses numbers. I almost made that mistake and did math on average etc.

He means, he has 3 different symbols.
Symbol 1
Symbol 2
Symbol 3

Now the question remains, how many times does each die have to roll to have each symbol rolled at least once.

When all 3 symbols are rolled, the card does damage.

Also, I think that when the number of rolls are known. Seeing as how it is one on one. The health should be inverted.

I don't know the actual rolls. But lets say that the average rolls for A is 3, for B is 4 and for C is 5. Then health will be 3 for A, 4 for B and 5 for C.

Who can write a simulator? Because calculating exactly with division by 0 is rather not doable.

pelle
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Trivial to simulate, but not

Trivial to simulate, but not without knowing more about the effects of the symbols. Is it decided how much damage they do?

And if there are more advanced effects on some symbols it will be less trivial. Or if there will be actual player decisions at some point during this.

EDIT: Also no mention of how many symbols must be matched on the card, if there are different possible combos, if players can somehow keep dice between rerolls or just roll all 6 again if there was no match. It is easy to simulate rolling dice and dealing damage, but the description is very vague.

X3M
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More information is needed.

That is right. I mistook the symbols for being to be a complete set.

Even one symbol rolled could have a meaning already.
This makes things very complicated.

More information is needed.

john smith
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Looks to me like a Slot

Looks to me like a Slot Machine being replicated. The Dice are the spinning dials with symbols and there is better results for different matched symbols? Yes?

Daggaz
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You cant do what you want to

You cant do what you want to do, at least not with a six sided die. You hit on the solution (and the problem) in your example, assuming a 0 means you dont hit any of the symbols. The solution is that you need such a non-matching symbol to change the ability of the die to quickly match (adding nulls makes it slower), as in C. The problem is that you cannot alter the probabilities any other way, for example changing the distribution of matching symbols as in A and B, as this causes one die to be better in one situation, but worse in another. Assuming the card you have to match is random, then your probability changes will always average out to zero.

The best die will have equal probabilities for all symbols and no nulls. A properly tiered die will have the same amount of nulls for each symbol. So in order to get a tiering of increasingly slower dice for all possible cards, you need dice that have enough faces to allow for the needed nulls. This total number of faces would be

n = (# of symbols)(# of tiers)

so in the case of 3 symbols (1,2,3) and 3 tiers (A,B,C) you need to use nine-sided dice.

A: 1,1,1,2,2,2,3,3,3
B: 0,1,1,0,2,2,0,3,3
C: 0,0,1,0,0,2,0,0,3

Whether or not you can save matching rolls or whatnot doesnt really change things for the dice themselves, it just shortens or lengthens the total time that the problem will take to solve, on average. If you have to match all the symbols in one roll and in order, then you are looking at lottery type conditions and your players will die of old age. I think it is safe to assume you arent doing that.

Even then, is this a fun mechanic? The player has no real control, they are just rolling the dice as fast as they can and hoping they get matches. If they lose, they hate the dice. If they win, its just pure luck which isnt rewarding in itself, and no matter how you set up the mechanics, its going to take a bit of time and just feel tedius.

questccg
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Just a small remark...

You could use 3d10s and have one side = Star (or Wildcard = Player's Choice). So:

A: 1,1,1,2,2,2,3,3,3,*
B: 0,1,1,0,2,2,0,3,3,*
C: 0,0,1,0,0,2,0,0,3,*

This could add some variability and make it "less difficult". Rolling three (3) "Stars" could be some Super Special Ability (like Nuclear Attack or Dragon's Breath, etc.) Just a thought.

0 = Blank (not actual 0).
# = Your Symbols
* = Star

Cheers!

Update: Here are the probabilities for each (A-B-C) using a d10 with a "Star" as a 4th option (so 3 Symbols + 1 "Star"):

http://anydice.com/program/f134

Note: With AnyDice you can Roll the d10s one at a time and get a feel for what the various rolls are going to look like (if you roll "Output #1", "Output #2" and then "Output #3" to match...)

Dice #3 is a bit hard to roll, you're going to be rolling this dice MANY times.

As was pointed out to you, it will make for tedious rolling even if it is balanced AND you add a "wildcard" to the mix.

But you can play around with the "Roller" just to see how it goes.

X3M
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He did mention rolling 6 dice

He did mention rolling 6 dice per player.

At least you can see all possible combinations for each die for that round. And the chance to get a certain combination.

The question remains: " is that it for that round?". Or can players take dice with them to the next round?

john smith
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This might seem odd but bear

This might seem odd but bear with me. Does anybody recall "Tomy" pocket games? Circa 1970s There was a Deluxe poker version was well made and balanced. You'd press a red button that turned the gears similar to an old slot machines. Second button was white. This was was a gear jam. You hit it and locked the gears displaying a 5 or 7 card hand. Achieves your effect I think, much faster then rolling all those dice.

These devices are available and could be re-created commercially. The later electric versions do not work same way.

FrankM
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Tiered tiers

You don't need precisely symbols-times-tiers because you could in principle have different tiering for different symbols. An example with d8:

A: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3
B: 0, 1, 1, 0, 2, 2, 3, 3
C: 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 2, 3, 3

Here symbol 3 is the one that "levels the playing field," so whenever a card has a 3 on it player type C has a better (or at least less bad) chance.

The 0 could either be obviously useless (e.g., blank), or it might have some defensive use (e.g., three "shields" blocks a point of damage). Now types B and C have some strategizing to do when deciding what to reroll.

X3M
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He didn't say what happens with the (t)roll

So we keep guessing.

I suspect he is going to do something along the lines of:

Rolling symbol 1 means 1 defence.
Rolling symbol 2 means 1 offence.
Rolling symbol 3 means a choice for the player.

Or.

Rolling the 6 dice.

An example card has the following options:

Attack with 4 damage, costs symbol 1, 2 and 3.
Attack with 1 damage, costs symbol 1 or 2 or 3.

If the player rolls 2x S1, 2x S2 and 2x S3. The total damage can be 12.
If the player only rolls 6x S1 or S2. The total damage can be 6.

Daggaz
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Yeah thats true, and a smart

Yeah thats true FrankM, and a smart way to keep the die size down while retaining some symbols.

pelle
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We do not know anything about

We do not know anything about the cards. If symbol 3 is less common or more often used for weak attacks a die with more of that symbol will be worse. No need for more sides on the dice or blanks.

Rerolls changes everything. Imagine trying to roll 111 on 3d6 with or without being allowed to set dice aside before rerolls. If it matters for this particular game depends on the cards that we know nothing about.

EDIT: on the other hand rerolls will introduce difficult decisions for platers, but are probably possible to simulate (with some effort) when trying to calculate how to balance player hp.

izn
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Whoa, thanks for replying,

Whoa, thanks for replying, guys!

It seems that I stirred some confusion here. Here's the picture to make it clearer: http://i65.tinypic.com/j9c11w.png

To answer some questions above, 0 is blank and useless. Players roll 6 dice in the same time, as many times as possible, to be the first to complete the set.

And I agree, I think it's better to playtest it directly rather than playing on probability theory. I'll grab some blank dice on my way home later!

Jay103
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Huh

I had a similar (but not identical!) idea a few years ago when I made a dice risk game.. (successful but tiny Kickstarter). Haven’t done a full design for the new thing yet. Mine doesn’t involve speed rolling, though.. personally not a fan.

My suggestion is NOT to ignore probability. Either do the math or write (or commission) a simulator. Play testing won’t get any subtleties, and unless people are writing down results, you won’t have data that’s even accurate (nor enough of it)

izn
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Tedious

Yes, I do realize this can feel tedious, and it's based on luck. But it's only the combat part of the whole game, so I think it's one way to simulate player needs to do be the first to do damage to others. I would like to talk about the game idea but it's not the right forum, so I'll make a new thread later.

Assuming this kind of dice combat make players relying too much on luck, is there any combat mechanics that have the same idea of being the first to damage others?

pelle
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If players have some control

If players have some control over what card(s) are on the table or ability to not reroll all dice you can create many difficult decisions, so the game becomes much less random (better player will win most of the time).

Jay103
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izn wrote:Assuming this kind

izn wrote:
Assuming this kind of dice combat make players relying too much on luck, is there any combat mechanics that have the same idea of being the first to damage others?

Well, there are two different elements to this: the speed rolling, and the randomness.

Most games have randomness (certainly games involving dice!).. you can't get rid of luck totally.

So the first question is, which element is worrying you? The speed rolling will give some people a natural advantage and actually reduce luck, in favor of the "skills" of (a) fast rolling and (b) fast evaluation of the rolls. But that may be its own negative.

(My 5-year-old will never, ever beat me at Tenzi, even without the stacking part.. but she can occasionally beat me at Quixx, and I know she enjoys it more)

The randomness "problem" is mostly an issue of variance -- the swings of luck. Some things are more prone to swinginess than others. A die with 1 2 3 4 5 6 on it will give an average roll of 3.5. A die with 1 1 1 6 6 6 on it will also give an average roll of 3.5. The latter one has higher variance.. you're much more likely to get a very good or very bad result.

So if you have an issue with luck in the game, maybe look to reduce variance.

I'll give you a simple example that might help with your exact issue.

If one card requires a 6 6, and one card requires a 5 6, which is easier to get?

Answer: the 5 6. There are two ways to get it (5 6 and 6 5), while there's only one way to roll a 6 6. It's twice as likely on a single roll.

And for your game, I assume that getting a single match is helpful as well (you then reroll the other die, yes?). Same thing, the 5 6 is more likely to give you a single match, as each die has two possible good values rather than one.

Don't know if this is helpful, but keeping your card values in the "easier" category will reduce the variance.

Daggaz
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pelle wrote:We do not know

pelle wrote:
We do not know anything about the cards. If symbol 3 is less common or more often used for weak attacks a die with more of that symbol will be worse. No need for more sides on the dice or blanks.

Rerolls changes everything. Imagine trying to roll 111 on 3d6 with or without being allowed to set dice aside before rerolls. If it matters for this particular game depends on the cards that we know nothing about.

EDIT: on the other hand rerolls will introduce difficult decisions for platers, but are probably possible to simulate (with some effort) when trying to calculate how to balance player hp.

I was operating on the assumption that the card you have to match is randomised each time, which gives the general solution to the problem in case other people were thinking of using the idea. But yes, otherwise if the card is fixed, you would want to tailor your dice to optimise that set of probabilities.

Rerolls dont matter with respect to the optimal distributions per die, think of it like the gambler's fallacy.

To the OP: Hahahah oh wow, this is for combat??! Emphatic NO THANKS. This is going to exponentially increase the time required to resolve a conflict. Its also not very thematically fitting... I can imagine trying to escape a devious trap or a locked room or something (the mechanism is literally a race against time to solve a code), but how does this give the player the sense of physical combat? "Ha ha I HIT you with a six!" is abstract sure but a lot closer than "Ok I got 3 out of 5 of the symbols to match only need two more dice to align before you solve the same puzzle and then I'm going to stab you in the kidneys!"

X3M
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I don't like this asap

I don't like this asap mechanic either.
If it is only a one time roll of 6d6, and you combine the best combination possible for a certain damage output or effect by choices.
Then you have a much more potential mechanic to use.

ASAP 1 damage or a one time 10 damage. Which do players prefer?

Fri
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Adjust the probability via character abilities

Could you adjust the probability by giving you characters/classes certain abilities to manipulate the match criteria on the cards instead? Like class A can use any number on the die as one number higher*. That way you can use the same dice for all the classes possibly even a standard d6.

*This example may be OP its just meant to be an example.

izn
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pelle wrote:If players have

pelle wrote:
If players have some control over what card(s) are on the table or ability to not reroll all dice you can create many difficult decisions, so the game becomes much less random (better player will win most of the time).

I can't believe I didn't said this before, I'm sorry to make things more complicated. Of course players can set aside the dice and re-roll the rest.

Okay to make things clear, I'm going to give a background of this game. As Daggaz said, I too don't want to use this kind of combat mechanic if it doesn't fit the theme. But what if it fits?

I'm working on a kite fighting game. If you don't know how to do kite fighting, basically you try to cut other kite's thread by repeatedly pulling and releasing your thread thus creating friction and cutting your opponent's thread. Rolling the dice to be the first to complete the set simulates this.

I wanted to make 3 classes of kites, one with high HP, one is good for maneuvering, and one is good in combat.

izn
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Fri wrote:Could you adjust

Fri wrote:
Could you adjust the probability by giving you characters/classes certain abilities to manipulate the match criteria on the cards instead? Like class A can use any number on the die as one number higher*. That way you can use the same dice for all the classes possibly even a standard d6.

*This example may be OP its just meant to be an example.

I though of this and just can't seem to find abilities that doesn't too OP. But as I said before, I'm open to any suggestions.

Jay103
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izn wrote:Fri wrote:Could you

izn wrote:
Fri wrote:
Could you adjust the probability by giving you characters/classes certain abilities to manipulate the match criteria on the cards instead? Like class A can use any number on the die as one number higher*. That way you can use the same dice for all the classes possibly even a standard d6.

*This example may be OP its just meant to be an example.

I though of this and just can't seem to find abilities that doesn't too OP. But as I said before, I'm open to any suggestions.

One extra die might work.

izn
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Jay103 wrote:One extra die

Jay103 wrote:
One extra die might work.

Making a total to be 7 dice? Isn't that too much? If I reduce the basic dice to 5 then adding one is still okay..

Fri
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Various ways to change dice and ways to limit those abilites

Here are some ideas about how to aid rolling/placement abilities (X and Y represents some number):

Choose the outcome of X die before rolling. Adjust by (exactly, up down or both) one, two or three. Flip the dice. Rolls of X also count as rolls of Y. Rolls of X count as 2 rolls of X. Swap dice from a common pre-rolled pool. Players get to roll X dice once before the rolling session. Players acquire a chit that is a permanent roll result.

Here are some ways to limit abilities:

odd results, even results, results that are of the number X, Result on dice of a color (assuming different color dice), when the total of all dice are less than/greater than X, if no dice are X, if at least 1 dice is X, Can or cannot cross the one to six, to activate this ability set as side one die from your pool.

You could also consult Roll for the galaxy, Sagrada, Castles of Burgundy for ideas that I do not remember off the top of my head.

FrankM
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Kite fighting

If this is to simulate kite-fighting, the evaluate and roll quickly part kinda fits. But instead of discrete rounds, it might work better to have an egg timer represent how long the current situation holds, and if no one scores by the end of it then a new requirements card is drawn without disturbing the dice. Of course, players may suddenly want to reroll dice they'd been holding on to.

izn
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Fri wrote:Here are some ideas

Fri wrote:
Here are some ideas about how to aid rolling/placement abilities (X and Y represents some number):

Choose the outcome of X die before rolling. Adjust by (exactly, up down or both) one, two or three. Flip the dice. Rolls of X also count as rolls of Y. Rolls of X count as 2 rolls of X. Swap dice from a common pre-rolled pool. Players get to roll X dice once before the rolling session. Players acquire a chit that is a permanent roll result.

Here are some ways to limit abilities:

odd results, even results, results that are of the number X, Result on dice of a color (assuming different color dice), when the total of all dice are less than/greater than X, if no dice are X, if at least 1 dice is X, Can or cannot cross the one to six, to activate this ability set as side one die from your pool.

You could also consult Roll for the galaxy, Sagrada, Castles of Burgundy for ideas that I do not remember off the top of my head.

Thanks for the references! I'll try tweaking with the same dice for everyone and the classes special ability!

FrankM wrote:
If this is to simulate kite-fighting, the evaluate and roll quickly part kinda fits. But instead of discrete rounds, it might work better to have an egg timer represent how long the current situation holds, and if no one scores by the end of it then a new requirements card is drawn without disturbing the dice. Of course, players may suddenly want to reroll dice they'd been holding on to.

Yes, I used an hourglass of 45 sec (temporarily), when players failed it simply means the kite doesn't have enough friction and break free. Then the players need to either find another kite or re-engage in their next turn.

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