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Treason - Game Concept

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Foolish Crok
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Joined: 06/01/2018
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Hey, I'm Crok - Foolish Crok
I'm working on my first game and my misfortune (and Yours :) )
I've come up with a project that will ruin me ... or it will not work at all because it's too complicated. There are many questions I am trying to answer like - should I have Victory Points game based, or more RNG...
The game is currently playable, and I'm working on the game's manual and graphics.

I am interested in your opinions
I am also interested if You played in similar game or found similar mechanics
As there is still a chance to change/rebuild concept, like I did before with removing whole Magic content so it's Medieval Ficion instead of Fantasy.

(Pardon Google Translate)

"Treason" - 4X strategy
Medieval Fiction (not fantasy)

The breakdown of the districts (Feudal Fragmentation)
Divided royal family and bastards of the deceased king are fighting for the throne occupied by the Regent
The player takes on one of them ...

Leaders - everyone has one other bonus

General rule - all aspects of the game are to be able to improve (eg by level up).

There are 6 resources in the game
Food - Allow creating town and cities, which increase limit of buildings You can place on hex. (population)
Production - for construction of smaller and larger structures
(Gold) You will pay for your Politics and your mistakes with fat sacks of gold coins
Equipment - Equipment for the army and combat specifics
Science - treatises
Experience (temp name) - Training army and maneuvers

Politics - costs gold, improve resource production, increase the number of turns, improve exploration
Treatises - Improve every possible action in the game for science points (25 treatises)
Trade - Exchange of resources, commercial contracts, mercenaries
Exploration - the world is great, the fact that you have maps does not mean that you have found everything

Exploration cards - like positive cards (see below)

Hexes / Map
Each player starts with a Estate that provides small amounts of basic resources in each round.
The Estate can be upgraded into the Palace.
Each hex has areas with additional (bonus) resources.
For example, Sawmill placed in wooded areas will give a production bonus, farms in fertile areas will produce more food.

Buildings
Each building can be upgraded

One building that increases the production of a given resource (6)

Bigger buildings
Possession / Palace - increases the amount of resources
Castellum / Castle / Bastion - trained crew allows you to defend the area / nearby hexes / crew harasses the enemy before it reaches the Bastion
Observatory / University - second level of the treaty / third level of the treaty

Actions that the player can take in each turn.
- 'Rewriting' - Use learning points to create a treaty.
- 'Construction' - Build up to two smaller structures / upgrade two smaller structures, or build / upgrade by one level, a larger structure.
- 'Influence' - Enhance the internal policy domain, occupy the free / non-free sector.
- 'Trade' - Trade, hire mercenaries, buy contracts
- 'Military operations' - Conscription and training for two military departments, Building fortifications, Movement of units, issuing battles.
- 'Exploration' - If Hexes do a reconnaissance and / or search for treasure.

Turn limit - no, but if You use more/less than Your current limit there may be positive / negative consequences cards. (see below)

Politics
9-10 topics from +1 to +5, you pay 1 for 1st level / 2 for level 2 ecc.
(examples)
Social relations - increase the turn limit
Infrastructure - will increase the production of tools
ecc.

Positive / negative cards - if you will do too many turns, pull something bad; you will pass earlier - pull something good
Each card give player a two choices
(Red card example)
After rain, water rained through the holes in the roof of the armory, causing the swords and armor to rust.
Choice 1 - repair the roof and clean the equipment - cost x + y,
Choice 2 - discard rusty equipment, discard x inventory resources

Rebellion and loss of land - you will have 3+ negative cards, subjects can rebel

(exploration card example)
As a Lord of the Realm, You have one group of loyal Retinues that can be used in various ways. One of them is Exploration.
Your Retinues found fertile lands
Add +1 to food production
ecc.
Your Retinues have found crashed wood cart, two dead horses and injured owner nearby. Cart is filled with xyz.
Choice 1 - Help injured owner and get abc at the end of the round.
Choice 2 - Rob the owner and get xyz now, let the injured rot and die.

Capital - it is not one hex, but three strongly fortified areas.
The capital begins with fortified positions and an army of xyz size.
The capital collecting taxes increases the strength on its hexes.
Taxes - Tribute must be paid otherwise the army of the capital will attack your land
Limit of rounds - Regent stabilizes the situation in the state, the allied empire arrives and sweeps players, Period.

Camps deserters - hostile branches / deserters in unseen areas
A free city - a neutral city, fortified, the player can get it in several ways

Fight - a simplified system
The player trains armies, trains in maneuvers, stronger wins
The fight takes place on the hexes on the strategic map

Fight - advanced system
The player trains armies from scratch, improves units, chooses equipment, conducts reconnaissance, fights on battlefields in the tactical system
Tactical system - each player has a 3x3 battlefield, sets the unit in secret, when it comes to clash - both of them touch battlefields and battle begins
Scouts - the allocation of resources for reconnaissance gives you the opportunity to discover enemy formations before the battle begins. The player who won may change the formation depending on how much he learned (resources + die roll)

Maneuver cards (advanced) - sometimes a good flank and appropriate military actions can change the player's fate on the battlefield
(example)
(A convenient battlefield)
Add 3x3 battlefield between You and Opponent before next clash
(wolf holes)
Add 1/2/3 on to Your battlefield before next clash
ecc.

Victory Conditions
Political - Regent resigns from the throne to the most influential player
Military - the strength player raises the capital
Scientific - the player makes a breakthrough
Building - the player creates a new capital / world wonder
Crusade/New World - creates a Crusade and conquers Jerusalem / creates an expedition to the New World

Capital - After x rounds - Regent wins the game, players lose

Lost (option)
The player takes over the capital and tries to revoke in desperation

Game modes
with Exploration - random hexes
with Map - without fog of war

Solo
Cooperation - the capital and neutral armies are stronger
Simple Battle - in the tactical system
Scenario - different set rules, event cards
One above All - one player plays as Capital vs rest

Home rules
Open game, examples of additional rules

Jay103
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I'm not sure if one is a

I'm not sure if one is a typo, but you have both treaties and treatises in this game, which is just asking for trouble (in English, anyway).

I'm not actually sure which one is the typo. If you're talking about science, I think I'd call them "discoveries". A treaty is a formal agreement between two different nations.

How does exploration work? Are there undiscovered areas? Sounds like there's some fog of war (mentioned at bottom).. how does that work?

I assume the Regent is not a player.

My general advice on multiple game modes: Choose the mode that you really MEAN, and make that work. Then once that's working WELL, consider whether other modes can be added cleanly.

let-off studios
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Welcome, and Thoughts

Hello Crok, and welcome to BGDF!

Yeah, your project sounds massive and covers a lot of ground, but I think I can understand why you want to make a game out of the scenario you describe. It also seems like you've baked in a number of ways to approach success. The only one that sounds comparatively weak is the Science-based victory condition, but perhaps that's a matter of taste.

Out of everything you describe, it seems like only the tactical combat is out of place. I can imagine games going along at a decent clip, everyone in the zone, plotting their empires, and then -BAM- it's time for a tactical battle. Bring out the 3x3 grids, arrange units, maybe throw a Scout into the mix... Seems like it breaks up the flow quite a bit, based on your description here.

Based on the little I have read about it, tactical combat seems like a segment of your game that could stand some streamlining. Any thoughts on that? Is it really less painful than it sounds like? Can you think of other ways to help players experience direct military conflict without this separate module?

One of the most troublesome aspects of new games is the integration of a mechanic that brings everything else to a screeching halt and/or it's so drastically different from everything else in the game that it disrupts the "flow" of how the game is going.

Combat is very often the thing that does this, unless the game itself is centered around direct conflict. But your description makes me think that the other methods of victory are much more synergistic or similar, and tactical combat is the outlier. Do you feel that's the case, or is combat more similar than it sounds?

Foolish Crok
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Answers

Jay103 wrote:

I'm not actually sure which one is the typo. If you're talking about science, I think I'd call them "discoveries". A treaty is a formal agreement between two different nations.

It was a typo and I have corrected this.
Your people create treatises that improve any possible thing in game.
Like Sun Tsu have wrote Art of War, You can create a treatise that will improve military tactics (add certain bonus)

I have changed what I wrote under exploration, hopefully it will be easier to understand.

Jay103 wrote:

I assume the Regent is not a player.

I am a person that will ask that kind of question, why not? Maybe I could like to be a bady guy in this game or maybe You all (players) are bad, because You're not loyal to the crown and I will punish You.

Jay103 wrote:

Choose the mode that you really MEAN, and make that work.

There are a lot of options, but I am trying to make this step by step. Throwing everything in will make unnecessary mess.

Foolish Crok
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let-off studios wrote:The

let-off studios wrote:
The only one that sounds comparatively weak is the Science-based victory condition, but perhaps that's a matter of taste.

I asked myself a question , why the Medieval Times ended and what caused it.
One of the answers is - because in 1453 Constantinople was conquered.
Medieval invention of gunpowder.
While in the game You use swords, bows...
adding gunpowder to the game as an 'upgrade' would drastically change any course of battle.

let-off studios wrote:

Bring out the 3x3 grids, arrange units, maybe throw a Scout into the mix... Seems like it breaks up the flow quite a bit, based on your description here.

Very first try of the game covered only tactical fight, there was no 4X strategy - which came after. One of the option suggested by playtester would be to either create another game or implement it as an additional content. This is another question I have to answer to myself, is that too much? I obviously would like to have a chance to create superiour 4X game like Twilight Imperium and be famous LOL, but first I want to achieve something by creating something by myself.

let-off studios wrote:

Based on the little I have read about it, tactical combat seems like a segment of your game that could stand some streamlining. (...) without this separate module?

It is the question I am trying to answer myself every single day. My first board game I've played was Eclipse (now You know why 4X, right?) but I did not like the RNG in there. There are definitely solutions to this, but I want something original - I dont wan't to put RISK way to solve military combat like 2a vs 1b gives 1a victory.

let-off studios wrote:

everything else (...) that it disrupts the "flow" of how the game is going.

It's actually not everything, but really a lot. Because I believe there will more cuts to enable the "flow". As a gamer I was tired of limited options. This game should give an opportunity to tell the player - figure it out, because there are multiple solutions.

let-off studios wrote:

Combat is very often the thing that does this, unless the game itself is centered around direct conflict. But your description makes me think that the other methods of victory are much more synergistic or similar, and tactical combat is the outlier. Do you feel that's the case, or is combat more similar than it sounds?

As I have presented the "present" version of the game, last playtest did not reach end/victory, it is something written on the paper. I am still not sure whenever there should be few ways like pointed out, or Victory Points scheme (but that's too common in my opinion)
Like there was an option to build Thieve's Hall and train them to become assasins, who at some point could reach Regent palace enable player to reach Throne. I genuiely love this idea, but I can cut that part and think of it if the game reaches prototype.

Aww... that's a lot of things to rethink, feel free to add some bricks so I can drown in the sea of uncertainty :>

let-off studios
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Lessons from Talisman

Foolish Crok wrote:
Like there was an option to build Thieve's Hall and train them to become assasins, who at some point could reach Regent palace enable player to reach Throne. I genuinely love this idea, but I can cut that part and think of it if the game reaches prototype.
One of my guilty pleasure games is the digital version of Talisman, and a load of its expansions. It's quite entertaining to play for an hour, fitting in workout sets between turns... :)

But the cool takeaway from the experience of playing it is that the game is successfully modular. The basic game is hefty enough, and has a single end condition. Add in the Grim Reaper expansion, and there's an additional ending and a figure to move around. Other expansions add entire new realms to explore, more items, creatures, end conditions, etc. When you have picked up several different expansions (as I foolishly have... But that's another story), you later tinker with different combinations and see how differently the game plays out.

The breadth added to the game's basic content is exhaustive, even though it's still not very deep. If you've played the basic version of the game, you can essentially integrate any expansion - no matter how many components - into the fold and still understand how a turn should play out.

Typical game length increases directly in proportion to included expansions, but not because there are too many divergent mechanics. Maybe there's a new board, a new deck of cards, a new figure or token placed here and there. But at its heart it's all about the roll-and-move, and the basic tactical choices on which you settle. Everything revolves around that.

So, yeah... Maybe tactical combat can be an expansion to your game. :)

Jay103
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Foolish Crok wrote:Jay103

Foolish Crok wrote:
Jay103 wrote:

I assume the Regent is not a player.

I am a person that will ask that kind of question, why not? Maybe I could like to be a bady guy in this game or maybe You all (players) are bad, because You're not loyal to the crown and I will punish You.


Wait, are you suggesting that the Regent IS a player? Because that's a very different game design than I think you were presenting at the top. Or at least, there were no special rules at all regarding the Regent, which seems impossible.
Quote:
last playtest did not reach end/victory,

I thought there was a number of turns after which the Regent automatically wins?

Foolish Crok
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Answers

Jay103 wrote:

Wait, are you suggesting that the Regent IS a player?

At least not now, maybe when I clear my mind properly and think about this dozen of days, maybe I will figure this out.

Personally I would find this a good idea, as this could provide additional replayability, but I am also aware that it could break standard rules which leads me to say that Regent could be a player, but not in final game... perhaps somewhere later, if the game will be good enough I could also think about this again.

Who wants to be a bad guy? Wait - is the Regent a bad guy? Maybe You players are bad because You are not loyal to the Crown. Sounds good as Idea, but is this even possible to implement?

Jay103 wrote:

I thought there was a number of turns after which the Regent automatically wins?

There is. In lastest version it took us 8 rounds (Turns - months, Rounds - years) to clash with each other with Armies (not single units, but whole armies)

Time in the game is divided into rounds, that is years and turns as for months.
Each player starts with the possibility of performing 3 (turns) actions in the first round (in the first year).

There is no upper limit to the actions in the game.
You can do more than the limit, but it is connected with the red cards of negative consequences, you can also do less than the limit so in reward You take green card.
Figuratively speaking, we give our subjects more duties to perform, so we take red cards of negative consequences or give the society more free time, thanks to which we can pick a green positive card.

So if there was limit of rounds - it could be around 10+

It took 10 years to stabilise the country. Regent gathered enough resources to pay for neighbour empire for military intervention that will sweep players off the map, which is either imprisonment or death.

let-off studios wrote:

But the cool takeaway from the experience of playing it is that the game is successfully modular. The basic game is hefty enough, and has a single end condition

Well, I am still working on A, there is so many ideas I could put into it but I have to focus on A. Then battles - let's call them B, Assasins C, Religion - well that's important so it's D.
(...)
Then we reach this fantastic opportunity to break whole game concept again, and add Magic, because I love the smell of Fireballs in the morning.

That's too much, ugh. I honestly... wish.

Jay103
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If Regent-as-Player isn't

If Regent-as-Player isn't part of your core concept, I'd knock that out of the list right now. Keep the game as focused as possible. Do as few things as possible, and do them very well.

If the game is a success (however you want to measure that), you can do a second version that adds the Regent and sell that too :). Would require enough new mechanics to justify a full add-on pack.

Foolish Crok
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Jay103 wrote:If

Jay103 wrote:
If Regent-as-Player isn't part of your core concept, I'd knock that out of the list right now. Keep the game as focused as possible. Do as few things as possible, and do them very well.

If the game is a success (however you want to measure that), you can do a second version that adds the Regent and sell that too :). Would require enough new mechanics to justify a full add-on pack.

Definitely, at the moment I am focusing to cut as many things to keep the flow of the game as smooth as possible. However If this game have "elimination" concept there must be something for player that was defeated in the game. Like a second chance... perhaps.

Foolish Crok
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I wonder if this is any ok,

I wonder if this is any ok, or too cheessy or too hard.

https://www.bgdf.com/node/21193

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