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GM-less NRPG

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Experimental Designs
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If anyone recalls my last thread about an idea on Nation RPGs from the link below one of the main issues with this concept was having an effective GM-less RPG design to have everyone more or less self policed based on an agreed set of rules.

https://www.bgdf.com/forum/game-creation/design-theory/nation-rpg

Even playing the role of a leader with absolute power there are circumstances inside your nation that is beyond your direct control. There are the basics such as making sure your people aren't starving and to levy an army large enough to ward off an aggressive neighbor and protecting trade by bandits on land and pirates at sea.

The GM-less part has been the biggest challenge in the design process and I believe there is a solution to keep everyone in check to reduce the more power-gamey aspects of it. Everyone has a nation focus based on five categories, weekly reports, monthly reports and yearly reports. One turn equals one week.

Weekly reports are mainly movements in trade routes, military operations and anything of that sort that is resolved within a week.

Monthly reports are diplomatic missions, special events and political intrigue.

Yearly reports is population, political climate, treasury and resource consumption/extraction.

Before I go any further in details what do you think of this concept so far?

X3M
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Maybe you can put your yearly

Maybe you can put your yearly reports into trimester or season reports. The ones that you have named can change that quickly. But if a trimester or season is too fast for the game that you have in mind. Stick with years.

How many years will your game take?

Experimental Designs
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There's really no set time

There's really no set time but things start off in the early Renaissance periods to industrial revolution and possibly beyond.

It's generally a fantasy world with a steampunky flair to it.

questccg
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Worried that it may take TOO LONG

I agree with X3M's assessment that the "reports" are not realistic at all.

My version would be:

  • Weekly is cool, basically "Each Turn".

  • Bi-Weekly is okay, on "Every 2 Turns".

  • Monthly is not bad, about "Every 5 Turns".

Yearly is just NOT REALISTIC. You need 48 to 60 turns before reaching 1 Year?!?! Do you see how that is not realistic?!?!

So on Turn #10, You get ALL THREE (3) "reports"... Which is INTERESTING.

But it's your game idea... Maybe you didn't do the math about HOW LONG a Year would be game-wise. 48 (4 turns/month) to 60 (5 turns/month) turns...

Note: If you want the "Yearly" report to happen ONCE (1) per game... maybe then it's logical. But I'm not getting the feel that that is the case... You can correct me if I am wrong.

questccg
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Another way of looking at it

You can have Actions or Event that take place "on each player's turn".

After all the player's take their turn, you can have Actions or Events that take place "once per round".

After every "third round", you can have another set of Actions or Events that occur (which are different from the events that occur "once per round").

Thinking of it in terms of PLAY TIME might be more "reasonable". IDK — it's your game idea. I'm just seeing what are the other possibilities.

Cheers!

questccg
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I think the ROUNDS version is better

Why? Because if you play FOUR (4) or more players, doing something "On each player's turn" is reasonable. After 4 (or more) turns, you do the Actions "Once per round" UNLESS it's the THIRD round.

If you think about the third round Actions, they would occur every 12 (or more) Turns.

Still realistic — because we broke everything into relative terms with regards to PLAYING the game.

That to me sounds much more realistic... But it may not work for you. Just some examination into the suggestion.

Experimental Designs
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So it's better off just to

So it's better off just to leave things on a weekly basis? Instead of weekly, monthly and yearly?

The main reason I wanted to implement a check is to make sure people aren't pulling weird numbers out of their derriere.

Do you know of a more reliable method than this?

questccg
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No turns should be Monthly...

Experimental Designs wrote:
So it's better off just to leave things on a weekly basis? Instead of weekly, monthly and yearly?

I understand your dilemma. How many players to this game? 4 or more?? The reason I ask this is because more than 4 players could make the intervals greater between turns and make a weekly basis seem longer.

Experimental Designs wrote:
Do you know of a more reliable method than this?

Okay I have thought about it some more and here is my recommendation:

Each player's turn is a Month. During his turn, he does everything that is possible in a Month.

Next according to the Season, activities that change according to the climate happen quarterly (so every 3 Months).

Lastly as per your original idea, each Year (or every 12 Months).

And voila, a balanced game — much more reasonable and you can KEEP your original plan/ideas just by changing things a smidgen in order to make them more realistic.

So Monthly/Quarterly/Yearly...

Cheers!

questccg
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Is it a 4 or 5 player game???

questccg wrote:
So Monthly/Quarterly/Yearly...

I asked you about the number of players for one very specific reason:

You could maybe use the term "weekly" if you allow for four (4) or five (5) players. Otherwise it doesn't really make sense. Let me explain.

Each player plays "A TURN". If that TURN is a "week" and there are 4 or 5 players, all their turns TOGETHER form a "MONTH" (4 or 5 weeks).

A MONTH is "A ROUND"... Every 3 rounds is a QUARTER. And every 12 rounds is a YEAR.

But it doesn't work if you have 2 or 3 players... Makes less sense.

Experimental Designs
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However many players normally

However many players normally play an RPG?

The more I think about your answers the more I'm convinced it should be weekly per player as you suggested (which is pretty smart on your part) and it starts to make sense if I make the sequencing like San Juan or Puerto Rico.

Also what would you recommend on randomly determine the resources of your domain based on region?

I did go by a map with a lot of small hexagons strung together forms a region within your domain. Not sure if this is the best method. What do you think?

Stormyknight1976
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We have already

In my group, we have already started a game similar to what your doing as a challenge , test and something to do over the course of our lives. We do this kind of game challenges all the time because we know it doesn’t matter how long the game plays, we are always having fun, learning each other’s tactics, strategy and just seeing who does what.

In our game:
Each player has his own world map.
The game is inspired by Risk , fantasy , modern warfare and a whole lot of different concepts for inspiration.

Length of game: Simulation of : A life time. That’s the suspense and buildup of a warfare game. Also to see who gives up first or loses or wins the game.

For each day - one movement or build upon your map.

You can hide your opponents box - once per day. Because we like to have fun that way.
This slows the other player down for a day from building or moving their units on their map. If the player doesn’t find it after a day or two then the other player who hid the box gives out clues until that player finds it again.

You can gain money from resources, attacking other maps or by trying to steal from the games bank vault.

Game bank vault - players can steal one unit, one gem pebble that cost 100 credits or buy from the games black market.

Players can stop other players from stealing from the vault by dice roll, actual open hand to hand combat or by actual stick fighting combat or some other weird challenge to stop the opponent from taking from the vault. This is also the same course of action during unit attacks and defending.

Winning the game:

Protecting your map by building up the defenses.
Over throwing the opponents map(s).
Buying out the games black market.

Or a combination of the three.

There is more to it but this is the gist of our game.

Stormyknight1976
Team Dymino Monsters

Stormyknight1976
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To Quest

I highly doubt that Experimental designs is going to sell this game design. In my group, we are going to sell this game design either. It’s something to occupy our time. Sure you can sell the idea on game sheets. But there are tons of game apps that already mimic this type of game. Our group and Experimental Designs are trying to bring it to the real world to see if it could or can work. And yes, it does. Just need some rules to play the game.

Oh and by players. It doesn’t matter how many players who can play a simulation game like this. The more the better. You can make a smaller game project this for family parties or at a friends party and see if you can keep it going. That’s the fun about these types of games.

Just putting our 10 cents in.

Team Dymino Monsters

To Experimental Designs:

Create your game, have fun with your project , design it how ever you like. Sounds fun to us.
Team Dymino Monsters

Experimental Designs
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This is more of a private

This is more of a private game versus something I would sell for a profit. It's more of the quirky homebrew type game mainly to try something new.

X3M
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Experimental Designs

Experimental Designs wrote:
This is more of a private game versus something I would sell for a profit. It's more of the quirky homebrew type game mainly to try something new.

Sometimes, quirky homebrew games are the best.
One can learn a lot of them.
There is no pressure.
Nor commercial demands and limitations.

Share your fun moments or stories from this game?

Experimental Designs
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We're still working out the

We're still working out the bugs but we tried some test scenarios and suffice to say the NPC model has been the most entertaining as far as humor goes. We spent weeks trying to create an "AI" for NPC city-state nations and...the results are confusing to say the least.

A City-state that closes its markets to its nearest neighbor because of a "border dispute" but nevermind said city-state is an island and the market it closes is essential to keep their people thriving but yet it trades eagerly with another nation with a religion that is an antithesis and the people hate each other to the point of being war-like.

Just goofy scenarios such as this.

We half expected to go with a "banning crabs" meme but we decided to re-work it to make it a little more serious. But not too serious.

Still heavily invested on testing and tinkering with it.

questccg
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In response to "Stormy" comment

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
I highly doubt that Experimental designs is going to sell this game design...

I never said anything about "selling" his design. I was talking about REASONABLE "Play time". If you have 52 week per year, and the game is based on WEEKS (in that fashion)... It's going to take 52 turns before the YEAR "events" occur.

I doubt most games will ever last THAT many turns.

And even for a local, just for fun project... Are people going to sit around and play a game for over 4 hours or maybe more just to experience the yearly events...

The frequency of the events don't work... They don't hold right ... unless you are playing 1 game for 8 hours or maybe more.

I'm just saying "someone" should focus on the REALISM of the game. And to make certain that YEARLY events occur "sufficiently frequently" too.

I don't get where you're getting an angle about SELLING. I was talking in terms of LOGIC. What makes SENSE. Nothing to do with selling a design. But making something with reasonable play time and periods.

Stormyknight1976
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Quack!

Quack!

Oh, I’m sorry Chris were you saying something?

Super-Tooned
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Games can last however long they want, silly!

questccg wrote:

I doubt most games will ever last THAT many turns.

And even for a local, just for fun project... Are people going to sit around and play a game for over 4 hours or maybe more just to experience the yearly events...

The frequency of the events don't work... They don't hold right ... unless you are playing 1 game for 8 hours or maybe more.

I'm just saying "someone" should focus on the REALISM of the game. And to make certain that YEARLY events occur "sufficiently frequently" too.

What kind of rock do you live under? Have you never played D&D Or Pathfinder?! Those games last for months! You don’t have to play the game in one sitting! If someone likes the game, they’ll play for however long it takes! You may be impatient, but others are not.

Oh! Also! I think the game is fine the way it is!

Have a nice day!

X3M
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I never aimed at realism.

I never aimed at realism. Sometimes doing something weird can be more fun. What if 1 year has less or more weeks?

Stormyknight1976
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I agree X3M

A game or storyline doesn’t have to be real to make sense. The mechanic of the game has to make sense. It can be whatever you want in a full time year. What if the month during game play is a full year? Or like the tv 24. Every episode is an hour of 24 hours.

You can use any measurement of time and use it in a game. Timers, clocks, dice, cards, rulers, sun dial, music of tones and chords etc. See what I mean.

Or you can take a turn in a game by phases or rounds at the first , mid or last part or having every player move all at once in a cinematic sequence.

questccg
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This is my understanding...

If you have "events" that occur in only a slight portion of turns (let's say 1 out of 52 turns), that means the occurrence of those "events" is 2% of the play time.

Don't you think that such "infrequent" events are relatively "insignificant" in terms of outcomes??? I mean 2% of the game (as originally planned).

One thing is for certain: if an event occurs 2% of the game, you better believe that the event in question plays a "significant role" in some major way. Otherwise it's relatively useless in terms of the mechanics. Something that occurs so "infrequently" and does NOT have a major impact on the game or how the game continues/flows, are relatively benign and are basically "useless"... Ya they may make a minor impact on the game, but in terms of the game itself, it is so insignificant (2% only) that it might as well be removed from the game...

Which comes to where my logic stems:

1. You need to be certain that those "Yearly Events" have a significant impact on how the game plays. Got to be memorable or people will more or less just say that on the 52nd turn, you do 1 extra step. Again insignificant.

2. If you increase the probability of that "Yearly Event", that it occurs more OFTEN, you can mitigate the IMPACT of that event. Since it occurs more frequently, it makes sense that it alters the game less... It's all got to do with odds and outcomes.

That's the way I see it... Sure you could do something "insignificant" on 2 turns out over 100 turns, but it's more or less like "fodder" and not really all that "important". So you spend 2 to 4 hours to do stuff and then on one turn, you do something different/additional.

Do you not see my angle???

In life it takes people with different views to look at issues from various angles. If we all looked at everything the same... There would be NO DISCUSSIONS or debates. Experimental wanted opinions and it's his game to do as he desires... But the fact that different people can offer different perspectives is what makes a place like BGDF thrive. It would be pretty boring world if everyone agree with everyone else and there would only be one voice...

So be respectful with your "Quack" comments... And understand I have a different perspective than you do. Difference of opinion doesn't mean that I or you are wrong. We just see the issues in a different light.

Cheers!

questccg
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There is a finer detail too.

If the "Yearly Events" as defined by OP need to occur... It seems like the importance of them (things like political climate, treasury and resource consumption/extraction) need to occur more frequently too.

Take for Political Climate, if there is no political influence until the 52nd turn, you can basically say that there is no political change during that period. This could make sense from a Presidential Perspective... The US changes Presidents every 4 years. So from a realism perspective ... it's even LONGER in terms of that kind of "Event".

But the House of Representative actively work on passing all kinds of laws and they do this on a "daily basis". So you would think that Politics have a larger role if you approach it from the Senate perspective.

So probably you would want a middle ground between both. Such that Political climate changes as laws are passed (game-wise I'm not 100% sure, this is just an exercise to fully understand the impact of "Yearly" Events).

I'm thinking 2% of the time, is not enough for "... treasury and resource consumption/extraction". I think coffer management would be required more often than once every 52 turns too. Again this is just my perspective in looking at what is being asked by the OP.

On the other hand, POPULATION seems like it could be something that falls in the "not too important" category (could be wrong too...) and that census is doing annually and falls maybe into that 2% timespan. But I could be wrong, I don't know the ramification of Population changes, which are probably in terms of GROWTH... Decline (because it's a game) may also be possible too. But that should be a CATEGORY thing: like city "x" grew by 100,000 people and earns +y% taxes on a monthly basis...

Just some ideas to throw around. Experimental can give us some more details which should clarify more how realistic the events are in truth...

Cheers!

X3M
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It is a valid point that 2%

It is a valid point that 2% needs to be 50 times as important. Or at least several times more important than all the other weeks.

What is it going to be in those rare occasions?

Experimental Designs
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And this is the reason why I

And this is the reason why I ask questions here and share my ideas here because there is going to be someone who will pick it apart and not tip-toe due to my feelings. Listen, you're doing me a big favor by taking my ideas apart and putting it through the wringer.

That being said I want to keep this civil among others who have opined. The time factor is the biggest hang-up as of right now for the very same reasons questccq brought up before. One thing to consider on anyone future responses is that I’m looking at this on a macro scale instead of a micro scale. This is an entire nation, not a single city. You can go on to ludicrous details on a city let alone a nation which is why I need to have a abstraction of certain factors such as population, treasury, resources and all that.

As far as events go, they’re not quite as random as you think, although what occurs can and for the most part is random for the sake of tension and keeping things entertaining. I mean if someone’s city gets wiped off the map because they had their very own Pompeii moment due to a volcano well…that is unfortunate for them. But Hey! If they made friends maybe these other nations can lend aid to relieve them? Politics and all that…

A lot of said events are given modifiers in frequency depending on some preset/agreed upon conditions when the game starts. For example it can be agreed or a preset condition that some areas of the world are more susceptible to severe storms than others. However an event such as having a village leveled by a meteor strike is completely and totally random to the point it’s like winning the lottery….although you don’t get money just a bunch of destruction and dead people.

Warfare, trade and politics are probably the only factors in the game that can get into micro-levels but not to very fine details or else it’ll grind everything down.

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