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A story-to-game project

Kroppensot huscarls (color).jpg

Bon après-midi, ladies and gentlemen,

The topic started this summer:
https://www.bgdf.com/forum/general/welcome-bgdf/story-game-creator
Well, after a bulk of efforts to bring the project to life I have to finally say, I failed. Not that I had expected something more than usual but total absence of interest for my game speaks louder than words. And the message is the project ended up in a pit of trash.
Yes, not all of us are happy game-makers. Yet to some extent it is necessary to assume you have a chance to try. And to be recognized a bit. Just a bit. No, just a very little bit. Whatsoever.
I here give a ref to a complete (and completely unsuccessful!) game in original design for downloads and reviews. I am not sure I am taking any pieces of advice of how to improve it after the crash. For myself I am convinced it is done now. Yet it would be interesting to hear out what you think of the game. So if you drop a line of what you feel about it, that would be great.

Here you go: http://www.mediafire.com/file/1h6lg9c4i4dpd33/Sootcraft.pdf

Comments

I'm sorry your game didn't

I'm sorry your game didn't work out. I would say that if you want people to look at your rulebook, upload it somewhere that people can view it without having to download it, like Google Drive or BoardGameGeek.

I also think you'll be hard pressed to find people to take a look at a game you have already deemed dead in the water, and indicated you don't want advice about. At that point, the only feedback people can give you is, I like it, or it doesn't look good/interesting,which isn't helpful.

If you want to figure out whether or not you should abandon this project, then that would be different. If you've already decided however, then there are other games which need feedback which are more worth the time to respond to, in my opinion. Whatever you choose to do, I wish you luck with it.

Change & Adapt

I've personally been disappointed when my own projects have been ignored after posting here on BGDF. I do my best to make it a competent design, but I clearly have spent *much* less time on artwork in comparison to your project. It must have been quite a blow to your enthusiasm, and it shows in this post of yours. That's a shame.

After you posted about your game on the forums here some time ago, had you made any changes to the game? To the rulebook? Had you made any updates at all, and then asked for feedback again?

Meanwhile... I see the flavor text you created fills up nearly the first half of your PDF, while the rules for the game begin on page 14. Had you received any feedback on this? It seems like quite an ambitious project to combine a game with what looks to me like a graphic novel or storybook. Very interesting, but of course challenging to do well.

As wob said: best of success to you should you wish to continue this project (and it would be unfortunate to hear you've completely abandoned it).

Not sure what you mean by

Not sure what you mean by "total absence of interest." From whom?

Did you Kickstart it or send it to publishers?

You made one post about it here, which a number of us contributed to. Are you saying there was no interest HERE? I'm not sure what else we could've done. I recall it was mostly confusing to me, with the story aspect. Did you go back and re-work anything? Or was that post the end?

Warning!I went to download

Warning!

I went to download that, and, while the download seems to have worked, that site being used slammed me with something very phishy, putting up a popup and a modal dialog box asking for login info. I had to kill my Firefox process. Click at your own risk.

So...

So, I did a quick look through that PDF. I don't see where you incorporated a single suggestion from the earlier thread. Which, given your top post here, makes me wonder what you were expecting out of this process.

(for example, I noted that you had the (c) copyright symbol, where you clearly wanted (tm). Even that wasn't edited).

You say you're not doing anything else with this now, so I'll avoid the trap of giving more feedback.. except.. I can't help myself, so.. All your icons look very very very similar. Cards have 3 powers out of a list of almost TWENTY, and all the icons are black-and-white and extremely similar. I think I'd spend most of the game time looking up powers.

Hi! Since you explicitly said

Hi!

Since you explicitly said you don't want advice about the game, I will respect that and not give any.

But mate...why didn't you share the game here for opinions BEFORE putting yourself through the ringer? I'm sure you could have got some encouragement and constructive criticism. You only ever posted your teaser text...

By the way, although I was critical of that teaser text, I liked the writing in this booklet. I enjoyed your use of language.. And I liked the mood of the theme.

The game looked perhaps a little less involved than the exposition. But here I have to resist the urge to give advice. :)

Have you ever played "Western Front: battle card game"? It's a little game with fewer than 50 cards....

Don't get depressed. I spent 3 years making a game which has had no other public outlet than a BGG contest. Got no responses. A year later I noticed in WordPress that only one person (presumably the contest organiser) had ever even LOOKED at the rules, let alone tried to play it. :)

Thanks for the feedback.

Thanks for the feedback. Since that was my start-up project I have to say I still have little experience in presenting works the right way. I jotted down your hint and believe I do need to consider Google Drive as an option for future.

I'd say THIS project appeared to be a failure despite the efforts I had made. I'll burry it as a token of my inability to foresee what I'm needed to do and take the right course. Maybe there will be circumstaces to resurrect it later but for the moment I do not see any.

In reference to the game itself I need to see what went wrong. Is it a graphical aspect or the gameplay? Or maybe I missed the target in the initial stage of plotting. Or the whole thing had no sense by default.

I admit I am a sort of the

I admit I am a sort of the person easy to set aflame with new ideas and equally easy to die out when meeting an obstacle. Inflexible and not inclined to self-manage when seeing a difficulty which I am unable to overcome. That is fair for my creativity and that is what mangles a process of presenting the result of it.

No, I did not have remarks on misplacement of the rules part. You are the first person to note it. And no again, I did not post a complete project before, only a few pages. That was not the right way to ask for advice, I guess.

The idea was to combine a mixture of entertainments within a project: you read, look through the art, you play a card game. Easy to get printed, does not require special equipment for production.

It didn't work.

I have understand what was wrong with this game not to repeat the same mistake in the next project.

Sorry, I have nothing to do

Sorry, I have nothing to do with this "fishy thing". Maybe Mediafire is not the best option of the file transfer. As said above perhaps Google Drive would be a better way to go. Nevertheless, I see it from subsequent posts nothing weird happened after PDF downloading.

I assume I failed to explain

I assume I failed to explain in my summer post what I had actually created giving only an extract of what I have. That was a miss. And the critics I received was aimed at the piece I presented not at the game itself. It is hard to assess something by an extract.

Sorry, if I am wrong saying that I see your pieces of advice as applied for a mature, ripe, self-sufficient project. Mine is not such one. That is not a big sectret.

What I have is an innovative dash with no rigid limits. I tried to put in it what I see instead of what people may really want.

And yes, I consider your opinion useful. But if you are just one step to getting published. I have fear if I improve icons, symbols and minor details it would not me bring closer to the goal with this project.
What I can do is to save your advice for future ones.

P.S. Power system with icons seems complicated as I see it after time now.

P.P.S. Kickstarter is locked for me. Maybe there's another similar option?

Tim Edwards wrote:Hi! But

Tim Edwards wrote:
Hi!

But mate...why didn't you share the game here for opinions BEFORE putting yourself through the ringer? I'm sure you could have got some encouragement and constructive criticism. You only ever posted your teaser text...

Hi again!
That was a mistake.
Maybe I was overconfident with the feeling the whole thing would work someway instead of asking for good advice of how to build it in the initial stage.
After getting a cold shower in a few months I now only have to analyze what ruined the game or what was wrong with the message of it.
I admit though your criticism was not bad one. I saw a glimpse of interest to my project.

So what is your story? When you finally found out you are considered, played and invited to get published? Or what was the crucial moment you realized your efforts switched from minus to plus?

"Western Front: battle card game"? No... It's hard to get nice things here:)

From the sample image/preview

I would say you definitely have a future WORKING for CMON! Whatever that hellish looking character is... You could definitely draw concept art for future editions of HATE! BTW in case you are not familiar with CMON (Cool Minis or Not) they make miniature games and Kickstart in the half-million ($500k USD).

Maybe if you put together a portfolio of all the hellish characters you might have designed for YOUR game and see if anyone is interested in any of them for making UNIQUE miniatures. I'm not saying they don't already have artists and sculptors ... they do. But maybe some of your scary stuff might interest them!

Maybe they might be looking for more BOLD characters to add to their collection of miniatures. Like an EXPANSION for HATE! Just a thought. That card is super scary to me... Make it in blacks and purples and you'd have a real devilish of a character. IMHO.

questccg wrote:I would say

questccg wrote:
I would say you definitely have a future WORKING for CMON! Just a thought. That card is super scary to me... Make it in blacks and purples and you'd have a real devilish of a character. IMHO.

That's a nice idea. Grazie mille (Thanks) for the tip. I will definitely try.
If the project in a whole is a failure nobody says you cannot use it as a sample of your creative work and an illustration of how your brain works.

I wonder if there any other miniature producers like CMON? I have not explored this field yet. Maybe there exist a list of them at this site generously contributed by a member of BGDF or BGG?

And yes - for the moment I see it as the best application of the late game.

Mantic is another minis company

Yeah Mantic is another company for miniatures. But CMON has more freakish games than Mantic. Mantic has some fantasy games, I know they published a fantasy chess game. But nothing as graphic like HATE!

But you can always try and send them some concept art too...

Best.

Here are some more mini companies

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1672423/ranking-miniature-game-developers

That's a BGG link to a discussion about miniatures and the various franchises.

Best.

Seems to be useful. I'll

Seems to be useful. I'll squeeze necessary info out of it.
Thanks a lot!

Fayzwel wrote:I admit I am a

Fayzwel wrote:
I admit I am a sort of the person easy to set aflame with new ideas and equally easy to die out when meeting an obstacle. Inflexible and not inclined to self-manage when seeing a difficulty which I am unable to overcome. That is fair for my creativity and that is what mangles a process of presenting the result of it.

No, I did not have remarks on misplacement of the rules part. You are the first person to note it. And no again, I did not post a complete project before, only a few pages. That was not the right way to ask for advice, I guess.

The idea was to combine a mixture of entertainments within a project: you read, look through the art, you play a card game. Easy to get printed, does not require special equipment for production.

It didn't work.

I have understand what was wrong with this game not to repeat the same mistake in the next project.

In my amateur opinion, this could be an issue (other than it's probably extremely difficult to get ANY project published):

You created a wonderfully twisted world. You summed it up as "A bizarre world governed by its own laws". But then the game itself is about comparing attack and defence values. It seemed like an anti-climax to me. I reckon you need some weird and wonderful gameplay to complement the theme you have created. That's the advice you didn't want. :)

it is a shame to give up on

it is a shame to give up on your project. now i have read the rules it seems a decent first effort.
there were problems: needs proof reading (for translations,i don't doubt it scanned perfectly in your native language), the intro is to long (1 or 2 pages max for future projects) and a few other little problems here and there (i wont go into detail for a dead project) but over all your game isnt broken or unplayable (i say without actually playing it).

you clearly put alot of effort into the "window dressing" of the game, and this could be a plus if you want to self publish (kickstarter etc) but sadly its mostly wasted effort if you want to pitch. not because its bad (you definitely have a talent) but because publishers have people to do that stuff (the art will help sell the concept not the game) and although its good to be protective of your vision publishers will want someone flexible and open to suggestions.

like i say the parts are good but they dont all need to be so important. concentrate on the gameplay and add the other stuff later.
or concentrate on your writing and art and draw your fans into the world you have made then sell them a load of tie in games and merchandise.

Tim Edwards, perhaps I didn't

Tim Edwards, perhaps I didn't but I got what really gives a stir to a flow of thoughts. Apart from questccg, this is the second useful advice about the issue.
Should I come to rework the game I will surely revalue the combinability of the story and game process. Seems to me I need to cancel the existing mechanics and build something more exciting than comparing values. I already see a slight notion of how it should work but... For the moment I am strong enough to resist temptation. I suppose I will come back to reassessing after another project is completed.

Nothing shameful. I have a

Nothing shameful. I have a bulk of projects left over. At least this one was built up to the very final stage. What made it dead is another question we are thinking of right now.

Pitching was not a good idea, I might agree. Many mainstream publishers are conservative enough to reject a new trend. Even small ones are cautious about something amaterish and new. For instance, I got that type of answer: "Thank you for your submission. Sorry, but this doesn't fit the kind of games I publish :-)" And it was multiple.

Kickstarter is an option. Donation, pledging, etc. I viewed it.
But my location does not allow to take it up. Maybe you could suggest another KS-like options? Or an Agent that deals with KS on my behalf?

indiegogo is kickstarters big

indiegogo is kickstarters big rival. there are others but i dont know how good they are. i know there are companies that help with the logistics of kickstarter but im afraid i dont have any experience.
this may be a silly question but when you submitted to the publishers (that said they dont make that kind of game) did you target specific publishers that specialise in these types of games or did you just send it out to every publisher witn an email and a mqiling address?
i know it is difficult to pitch if you are not in the right place (eg. the states) but there are other options. i would spend a little time fixing the bugs people have pointed out then upload the game to a PnP site. you could give it away for free (there are loads of places to do this- put a link on bgg) or charge for the pdf (drivethru does this for you) you may not make your fortune but it will get your game (name, and art) out to the public. you wont have to compromise on design and you wont have to worry about distribution.

Fayzwel, I'd say that the

Fayzwel, I'd say that the problem brought to light in the original post was basically one of communication. I think we found the language difficult (I assume English is not your first language..) and the story presentation tough to digest, giving very little of what the GAME was. So there was essentially no feedback to you about the game part, just the story part.

Honestly, I'm still not sure what the story has to do with a card game that seems like a pretty straightforward card-vs-card battle setup.

Don't use IndieGoGo

I fair warning about IndieGoGo is that it is pretty much "dead" for TableTop Gaming. We had "TradeWorlds" AFTER earning over $42,000 USD on Kickstarter, we followed the advice on my boss who said: "Why not try all the crowdfunding platforms to see if you can raise more money...?" It seemed like a reasonable idea. But MOST campaign that are on IndieGoGo continue to try to fund after Kickstarter and only get a handful of backers. In SEVEN (7) days we didn't even get ONE (1) backer... And our game was very competitively priced and had a following on Kickstarter... NOTHING.

Unless you are a Rodney Smith or Rahdo Runs Through with a LARGE fan base of people and you need more "flexible" rules for your campaign, I would say just steer clear of "IndieGoGo".

Latest research about them is that they are mostly focused on "Technology". And so the TableTop Gaming category is just ... well ... "dead".

Quote: P.P.S. Kickstarter is

Quote:

P.P.S. Kickstarter is locked for me. Maybe there's another similar option?

Ah, yes, you can only create projects if you live in certain countries.

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of anything like Kickstarter that has the same reach. You'd want to approach publishers.

You might want to try:

https://www.ulule.com

I don't know where it's based and I don't know the success rate or following... But another Designer from BGDF tried it and failed to fund... So I'm not going to sugar coat anything. But it might be worth the try and like I said IndieGoGo is a NO GO. Ulule is even less known than IndieGoGo ... but I'm not sure about the reach with that platform.

I think if you have a relatively SMALL "Funding Goal" like $5,000...

Here is Martin Maly's "Fleets At Battle" which was a neat dexterity game he enjoys playing with the whole family (Kids and Parents):

https://www.ulule.com/flotten-versenken/

Like I said he was unsuccessful. Another alternative is figuring out if you are more interested in "creating" concept art for other companies. Like I said it takes a lot of creativity to generate all kinds of artwork for other projects. And if you have it in YOU... Well start putting together a portfolio of what you can do ... and just send it over saying something like: "I love the horror genre and I can design horrific characters as seen in my portfolio. If you would like me to help work on ... please feel free to contact me..." Or something like that. It's not very favorable UNLESS you have a super looking portfolio with all kinds of "crazy stuff" (and from what I have seen in one card... You may have that kind of rare creative genius a company like CMON with their Radical games...) You could be a match.

Like I said, the odds are not in your favor. But like they say in life: "If you don't try, you'll never know." Hey if I gave up on "TradeWorlds" after my attempt to sell it on The Game Crafter, I would have never worked with OLG. And that means we would have never had our KS ... unless I took the step to reach out to them and see if they would be interested in my game. They were.

So my best advice is to continue TRYING. And maybe that means concept art for one of these minis companies... You never know!

And the reason I am suggesting it...

Is because Martin did get a little over $1,000 dollars in Funding. That's better than what I did on IndieGoGo in seven (7) day ($0...) So maybe there are European users on Ulule ... not sure. But you can certainly look into the platform a little closer... I did not investigate.

Just remembered that Martin tried with "Fleets At Battle".

It may be a question of procedure

Think of it this way: if I sit down to play a game, I don't want to print and cut cards. I want to PLAY. Similarly if I want to read a novella about some fantasy world, it doesn't mean that I want to play a game about that same world.

You're mixing up different things. You've done extensive World-Building which is good for very THEMATIC games like Ameritrash or RPGs. A two (2) player card game is not really ripe with theme. Look at the BIGGEST card game in history: Magic: the Gathering. There isn't much story aside from the booster sets and a bit of flavor on some cards. For the most part they stick to Art on Cards. No stories.

Like I said earlier... Aside from the name "SootCraft", I would focus on working on a portfolio showcasing the World-Building and Concept Artwork such that another company might be interested in building upon your concept. I know it's a stretch ... but if it's something YOU want to do in life... Well then go for it!

Your plan of having Story, DIY and Playing a Game... Might not be in the right direction. But your desire to do World-Building with something to showcase might be of value. Specifically in the Miniatures market ... because they are running out of concepts. I can't tell you how many Roman and Greek God Minis I have seen or Gladiator Minis. Becomes repetitive even if they DO FUND.

Nice approach. Now for me it

Nice approach. Now for me it becomes clearer why the game ended up in such a ruefully unclaimed way. I'll try to soak your piece of wisdom to avoid the same mistake next time.

I've got the point about card game essence.

It would be also interesting to hear out your opinion - if there is a field-based (snakes and ladders) game instead of the card game as a continuation of the story? Would it be a happier combination?
In a way not to abandon the idea of world-building... If there's a playable world map with a story line on the back?

How about something more appropriate...

YOUR "rulebook"! You could easily ADD "Lore" and Character Designs with stories about a specific character, race or just something in general... That might be a very APPROPRIATE way adding more "theme" into your game.

You could add it per section or every other page, adding artwork and stories or factoids... Something like a long paragraph or two to three of them but shorter.

That would feel very natural even if it is a very "luxurious" model to follow.

See for most people, adding that kind of "extra" theming is costly. You need to pay an artist to do concept art and then you need to pay a Creative Writer to add the stories which add depth to the OVERALL experience...

You should consider this... because the FORMAT is PERFECT for more "Game Lore".

Think about this ... in that how your BORING rulebook could be TRANSFORMED into a very detailed manual with all kinds of race information, imagery and lore.

Cheers!

questccg wrote:YOUR

questccg wrote:
YOUR "rulebook"! You could easily ADD "Lore" and Character Designs with stories about a specific character, race or just something in general... That might be a very APPROPRIATE way adding more "theme" into your game.

Copied, thanks. I need to digest it for a while.
A rulebook though suggest a game apart from art / story content.
What about my question of a race game + story?
Sorry, did not find a good example, only this one: https://tesera.ru/game/403736/photos/

That is the game I played very-very long time ago and in 90-s and this pattern seemed to be popular that time.

Does it have any viability in the modern market? Or you insist a story should go apart from the game or as a lore of it. Not integrated.

Fayzwel wrote:Nice approach.

Fayzwel wrote:
Nice approach. Now for me it becomes clearer why the game ended up in such a ruefully unclaimed way. I'll try to soak your piece of wisdom to avoid the same mistake next time.

I've got the point about card game essence.

It would be also interesting to hear out your opinion - if there is a field-based (snakes and ladders) game instead of the card game as a continuation of the story? Would it be a happier combination?
In a way not to abandon the idea of world-building... If there's a playable world map with a story line on the back?


It sounds like you're much more interested in the story than the game part. I say this because you're offering, if I understand correctly, to swap out the card game for a totally different game.

Why not just write the story? Does the game enhance the story? It doesn't really seem to. Maybe consider that what you really want to do is tell this story, in a mixed-media sort of way that doesn't need cards or a game board.

Jay103 wrote: It sounds like

Jay103 wrote:

It sounds like you're much more interested in the story than the game part. I say this because you're offering, if I understand correctly, to swap out the card game for a totally different game.

Jay103, not exactly. I want to create a playable story.

Fayzwel wrote:Jay103

Fayzwel wrote:
Jay103 wrote:

It sounds like you're much more interested in the story than the game part. I say this because you're offering, if I understand correctly, to swap out the card game for a totally different game.

Jay103, not exactly. I want to create a playable story.


That's a good goal, but..

Usually the games that manage that are very large in scope.. more like Gloomhaven. Or they literally tell a story, as a role-playing game (my own game has a storyline, but it's an RPG)

It's pretty hard to tell a story with a card game (or a snakes-and-ladders game). At best, you have a story, and the game implements some aspect of the world of that story, like squad-level combat.

Creating Stories with Cards

This might be quite a ways off from what you have here, but when you mention creating stories from cards, it immediately came to mind.

Choose Your Own Adventure: The House of Danger
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/251420/choose-your-own-adventure-hou...

ZMan Games released a board game conversion of an old Choose Your Own Adventure book, and I remember reading it (and many, many books like it) in my youth. This gamified version increases interactivity and adds to the possible choices permitted for the player, while still maintaining the old CYOA aesthetic.

Les Livres Dont Vous Etes L'Hero

The English books "Fighting Fantasy" were also available in French as "Les Livres Dont Vous Êtes L'Héro"... And series likes "Quest For the Grail" (in French "La Quête du Graal") I think I had over 50 "Choose you own adventure" book too! Use to love reading Fantasy Fiction.

Nowadays I don't read too much... But I'm into the "Dresden Files" because for their INTENSITY. There are just parts that are so thrilling in the books ... that I enjoy reading. Are they the BEST "Fantasy" books I have ever read? No. I personally really enjoyed R. A. Salvatores Forgotten Realms especially the Drizzt Do-Urden series.

Some good stuff... some fond memories too.

I have a Creative Writer on board with "TradeWorlds" ... and I really enjoy his ideas and what he's help us create. Same goes with our Artist/Illustrator which has rendered some amazing graphics. So yeah I also really enjoy CREATIVE things such a Game Design and working with a team to bring it all TOGETHER...

I know a lot of Game Designers work on their games ALONE. And believe me I did this originally with some Family support. But it's only once that I had connected with "Outer Limit Games, LLC" that the game went and is now on another level. We talk about searching for Publishers and how ART is irrelevant. It depends on the Game and the nature of the relationship with your Publisher. The more EFFORT you put in, the more someone else might appreciate what it is you are doing.

Just an aside... Coming back to your World-Building. My advice:

Forget the game you are working on... And INVEST all you time in World-Building. Build up a portfolio with just this ONE (1) Universe with great detail and effort in producing Concept Art with color Illustration and stories and the factions, etc. Put that together and forget about the "game" for a moment... Focus on making a complete portfolio of your World.

Once you are done with it all... See if anyone is interested in your Universe.

Like I said CMON has got to be looking for NEW REALMS for their Miniatures and IF you have ENOUGH CONTENT, they could maybe be interested in designing some "game" or "miniatures" around YOUR "World-Building".

It's not an easy thing to do ... but if you have the talent to do it...

You'll probably find someone interested in the effort you'll put into it!

questccg, let-off studios,

questccg, let-off studios, Jay103 and other Ladies and Gents how took part in this discussion of the "dead" game Sootcraft - thanks for your tips and refs! I got some food for thought to chew on. I guess it will take some time for me to think over and chose the right direction for a new project taking into account what was said above. Nevertheless, I've already got a hint to move on with.

If I may be of some help in your projects respectively do not hesitate to urge me :))

Arkham Horror Living Card Game

One last example before I leave you be: Arkham Horror: The Card Game. Card-driven, story-directed campaign game with scads of background material.

https://boardgamegeek.com/video/116058/arkham-horror-card-game/arkham-ho...

Thanks! That's the thing I am

Thanks! That's the thing I am going to experiment about. Along with "The House of danger" it gives a clue.

Seems a bit strange to me

I find it ODD that you still want to make a "Game". As most of the other designers have pointed out, there isn't too much "Story" in most popular games. Look at "Settlers of Catan"... Do you seen any "Story"??? No just a Euro game about building villages and roads on an Island.

Granted that there are some games that have more story such as the "Arkham Horror" card game (Let-Off), the "Choose your own Adventure" game too... The vast majority of Stories are in RPGs as mentioned by Jason (jay103).

Now I'm going to say something, not because I am mean but ... because it's real. Creating GOOD "Games" is ... well... DIFFICULT. If you want your game to be a success... It has to be REAL GOOD, if not GREAT.

While I state this... I will make two (2) statements (and don't be offended):

A> From what I have seen in terms of Design Skills... I'm not sure you understand the type of WORK required to make your AVERAGE game. Can YOU design an AMAZING game??? Because that's what GAME DESIGN is ABOUT. It's NOT about "Stories", "Concept Artwork" or "World-Building"...

B> You have CREATIVE TALENT in the area of "World-Building". From what I have seen, you definitely have an IMAGINATION of your own. You want to create Factions and Races, write "stories" and "Bios" of characters, etc. And I personally SEE your TALENT.

Again I don't want to offend you... This is just observation. IF you make a LOUSY game with a "great theme" and "wonderful stories" ... very few people will care. Why? Because they want a GREAT game... And that's not your focus... You want to develop a World and include it in a Game. That's NOT what MOST people are looking for ... and it makes me believe that you MAY be headed towards another failure. (Again I don't want to be super critical... I'm just explaining things in a different light).

IF you want to DESIGN a GAME... FOCUS on "mechanics", "components", "cards", and the elements that go into making a GOOD "design". Worry less about "theme", "stories"... What you need is a NICHE product/game. It needs to be NEW and EXCITING. The game needs to be "FUN" and encourage people to play it more than once. That's what GOOD "design" is all about.

IF you want to DESIGN a WORLD... FOCUS on "Illustrations", "Concept Art", "Stories", "Characters", "Races", "Factions", and the elements that go into making a GOOD "concept". This is a very DIFFERENT NICHE. This is something that can INSPIRE "other" Graphic Artists, Illustrators, 3D Modelers, etc. to bring to LIFE such an examples of a "WORLD" and let THEM worry about the "game" THEY design and bring to life... Your job would be to provide the "inspiration" and something with enough DEPTH that it can be developed into something REAL and NEW and EXCITING too!

I know you want to DO BOTH... My GUT tells me you'll land up doing a half-job of each designing a lousy game with too much story-telling. And that because the "game" is not sufficiently good enough... not enough people will be interested... Because IF you design a GAME FIRST, it's got to be at least A GOOD GAME!

Again no insult, I'm just trying to compare what you have done previously and am trying to predict what the outcome may be. IF you want to design a GAME, focus on THAT (not stories and bios and concept art). Especially if you want that game to be SUCCESS.

I know you have your OWN "process"... but my worries are that it's not what the people who BUY games are really "looking for". And what I think YOU bring as REAL VALUE to the TABLE... Is more something along the lines of "Creative Designer" ... Where you would have people to GUIDE them into YOUR WORLD.

Anyway I wish you the best with this "GAME"... But I am a bit concern that you don't have the right priorities when bringing this "GAME" to life. So I will wish you good luck and leave it at that!

Cheers and Good Luck...

One example to look at...

One example of BOTH "World-Building" and "Game Design" is SCYTHE.

BUT it's TWO (2) very different people with different contributions.

A> The "World-Building" and "Illustrations" were made by Jakub Rozalski. He was responsible for designing the characters, their companions, the factions and all the "eye-candy" around the game.

B> The "Game Design" was done by Jamey Stegmaier. Jamey had designed and developed several games prior to Scythe... He is a very well known and prolific designer ... one that is versed on the Game side and Business side of "Game Design".

So you see, this was like a "marriage". Two (2) people bringing their A-Skills to the same table and WORKING TOGETHER to design this world around Scythe.

And what I am trying to make you understand is that the GREAT "Game Designer" focused on Mechanics, Components and Game Rules... While the GREAT "Creative Designer" focused on Factions, Characters, Bios and building this World. So in this case you have the BEST of BOTH worlds because it was a collaboration that allowed EACH party to FOCUS on what THEY do best.

Sure in some instances it required TEAM collaboration (perhaps when designing the Factions and the Leaders).

But the fact of the matter is that TWO GREAT DESIGNERS "collaborated" to make this game a reality.

I guess my question to you would be: "Can you choose between both???"

Cheers and Good Luck...

questccg,First, thanks for

questccg,
First, thanks for your detailed analysis of the problem with my game. I appreciate your time and efforts contributed to the topic.

Second, no offence ever taken. And why should I? I am here to get critics and make conclusions. Complements is what I can receive from my friends who may like what they see because they know my creativity. But that will do more harm than favor dragging me into a world of illusions and self-confidence. While here I am to get a cold shower and look at things through a prism of realism.

Third, the theme was launched by me to avoid the same mistakes in the future. And my personal goal is to build a new way or to amend the route.

In reference to the said above I must say I am still not sure how to make the best of your shared opinion. Not that I am too stubborn or deaf to hear. There are some contradictions I have.

To devote self to a world-building? Fine. The Universe is built. For instance, we have a 30-40 pages lore in pdf. What's next?

It is highly unlikely anyone will get interested in it to have it as part of their extended project. HATE has its own universe. While it is successfully sold the way it is, nobody will adopt a strange world of another writer.

To promote it as a portfolio? Many have stuff do it within a Company, stangers are unwelcome. Especially, those not ever heard of before. Ususally, a customer company looks through portfolio of freelancers on special resource sites. It is a very little chance they even keep a record of what was sent to them as a promotional portfolio. When there is a need they refer to behance / deviantart or any other artist-based resource as an example. As you metioned, your portfolio must be 100% matching or really crazy-looking to excite their interest.

To find a fellow (experienced!) game designer likewise in a SCYTHE collaboration? Who probably would take up a part of GAME building...? No comments. As a little remark - noone will be eager to join a newbie or an amateur unless he is paid for. Let us take this site, for instance. Suppose I make an ad and invite someone to join a small team to push a project based on a ready Universe... How many participants would reply do you think? Right. Zero.

So how could I apply your piece of wisdom the best way?

Writing market was too tight to succeed. That is why I extended the borders to gaming. But as I see there's little difference.

Fayzwel wrote:Writing market

Fayzwel wrote:
Writing market was too tight to succeed. That is why I extended the borders to gaming. But as I see there's little difference.

It is much, much simpler to self-publish writing vs. gaming, though.

Hmm... You make valid points

I agree ... with your conclusions. BUT what I was thinking... Is to FIRST "choose" World-Building and get all the CREATIVE stuff done, the Factions, Bios, Characters, Races, Cities, Realms, ... essentially do everything that YOU like doing ... and get it all done FIRST.

Once the World-Building is DONE... You'll have everything (or mostly) all that you need when you reference your World.

If you have 30-40 PDF pages worth of "Lore" that is an AMAZING "accomplishment"! Something you should be PROUD of. You started and COMPLETED "successfully" your drive to develop an intricate World with all of its moving pieces. You've done something that most people would not be possible to do... Why? Because it's another process, different from Game Design.

Okay so now take a deep breath AND be proud that you've successfully finished PHASE #1.

Now comes PHASE #2... Developing a GAME "around" this Universe. Why do I recommend doing one phase and then the other??? Well this way you can FOCUS on what is important to each phase. So now you have stories in hand and it's time to DESIGN a "game".

This way you KEEP the "Lore" separate... You can use it for a portfolio and NEXT ... You can work on the "game" ... IF it interests you. You may lose interest and decide to work on another Universe (or World) instead.

It's like I do with games (And most Game Designers echo). We keep folders on our PCs with Excel Spreadsheets and/or Text Files and refer to ALL the older design ideas that we had.

So your worlds are done and have not yet achieved any ADOPTION. Once you get to your third or more World... You'll have intangibles that can contribute to your portfolio. The idea is that you DO IT. And have something FINISHED to SHOW. Do it a couple more times and then you have all kinds of ideas to work off...

Just like all of our designs ... we have like a DOZEN or more IDEAS which are unfinished ... because the design is still not completed.

You having 90% worlds completed and mostly ready to be picked RIPE for an idea of a game ... Might be more FEASIBLE then trying to do BOTH at the SAME time... Do you see what I mean???

Develop the world first and design the game afterwards.

And this way WE (other Game Designers) can at least HELP you if you get stuck... Just post a thread and I'm sure someone will gladly TRY to help. But we can't help with your World-Building... That is YOUR imagination at play. Why once the World is built, you can share parts with US and maybe like I said, we can help you determine some mechanics or components that would be cool for matching with the game... etc.

Something along those lines. FIRST focus on World-Building (the thing that you love to do... Make it very detailed and with illustrations and Concept Art) and then once that is done come back and share part of your world and see what WE (your fellow Game Designers) can come up with as ideas to help you with the 2nd phase.

Cheers!

And just as PROOF

Take a look at the BOX of "Scythe":

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/3163924/scythe

It says and I quote: "Designed by Jamey Stegmaier, world building and art by Jakub Rozalski"

Again this is not a comparison between you doing BOTH. I'm just illustrating that one of the most prolific Game Designers (Jamey Stegmaier) collaborated on this game.

You might be able to do BOTH... Just do one at a time. And ensure that you focus on what is important in each "phase".

Cheers!

Note: Otherwise you land up with great stories and a terrible game. Not what you want... Since you "seem" to want to make a "game" to share with the world your creativity, art and ideas... You just have to understand that each phase has a SEPARATE skill set required. And you've got to adapt to ensure you focus on the right skills in order to produce an impressive GAME!

questccg, thanks. Route

questccg, thanks. Route correction will be done IAW your advice. Despite the destination is not clear yet I definitely have a direction to follow and something really worthy to keep in mind.

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