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KS — How to best handle shipping

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I Will Never Gr...
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anonymousmagic wrote:I Will

anonymousmagic wrote:
I Will Never Grow Up Gaming wrote:
Exactly. Shipping can be charged as a flat fee on your pledge level (for worldwide) or you can have it separated as X$ for US, Y$ for CA, Z$ for EU, and B$ for Rest of World .. or whatever amount of separation you desire.

Then, you can include a portion of the REAL shipping cost in the pledge if you want (which is recommended) because people have zero clue what shipping really costs and will balk at anything over a certain amount that their used to.


In my personal opinion shipping cost should never exceed the cost of the pledge level someone backed for. Even though I see why a pledge manager can be useful, I don't recommend charging shipping in a pledge manager after collecting the funds. The only time I agreed to do that, the shipping turned out more expensive than anticipated. As a backer, I want to know what I need to pay immediately in one go. No late charges. No surprises. I know I am not the only one.

Besides, using anything other than the Kickstarter system increases the chance of people missing the email telling them about the pledge manager in their daily pile of junk mail. As a project creator I wouldn't want to responsible for taking someone's money and then not delivering because they forgot to add shipping later.

I've never suggested (nor would I ever suggest or recommend) that shipping costs should exceed the pledge level. That would be a sure fire way to lose backers or get an earful from those who were not aware that would be the case.

The only time I would personally consider collecting shipping via pledge manager would be in the case where there could be a huge increase in the weight and/or size of the game through stretch goals.

That said, I would rather manage my stretch goals so that they are already accounted for if reached and so that they don't add a significant amount of weight (I'm not particularly interested in adding a zillion miniatures to any of my games, for example).

I Will Never Gr...
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questccg wrote:I still

questccg wrote:
I still disagree that the Funding Goal should include "Backer Shipping". IF my Funding Goal is $25,000 WITH Shipping, it makes more sense for it to be less and be $17,500 WITHOUT shipping. IF this lowers my rewards from $50 USD to only $35 USD ... you can see the attraction.

Backers may be *hesitant* to back at the $50 USD level. However if the reward is only $35 USD + Shipping... That has the benefit of making the Backers understand that the cost of the game is ONLY $35 USD and that the shipping to Backers is "extra".

Instead of having to design a Pie Chart that nobody looks at... All they do is look at the REWARD LEVELS... And come to the conclusion that $50 USD is too HIGH!

No no no .. you set the reward level at $39 and THEN you add a shipping cost on top of that based on backer location (for example, if your shipping is $10 to the US, they select the $39 reward and it then adds an additional $10 shipping so their pledge comes out to $49).

You don't have to have the shipping cost included directly in the pledge level itself, but having it added to the pledge via Kickstarter makes it a one-time transaction that is far more desirable to backers (they know exactly what the game will cost and won't have a 2nd, potentially surprising, transaction for shipping later on down the road that they will have to budget for).

Quote:

Removing the Shipping ... illustrates how the Reward is LESS EXPENSIVE, I pay LESS KS Fees and Backers get a more HONEST level of pricing.

You're going to be paying the fees no matter what, either through Kickstarter or through a pledge manager. Its unavoidable. See my comment above regarding the pricing.. it's perfectly honest and transparent when set up properly.

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If you cannot see this... There is nothing I can do or say to convince you. The bottom line is that SHIPPING is a Monies In/Monies Out situation. You make NO MONEY on it and it should NOT be part of your Funding Goal (IMHO)! Making your goal $17,500 USD to $25,000 USD is quite a large increase which might be a put-off for some Backers!

That it should not be part of your funding goal (or count towards the funding goal) has been forwarded to Kickstarter many many times. If you charge shipping via KS (either directly in the pledge or added on to the pledge based on location) it counts towards your goal. If you charge it after in a pledge manager it's a second transaction and will cause a segment of backers to choose not to back your project because of that.

The goal itself is not a huge factor for most backers. A goal that makes reasonable sense combined with whether or not you've hit your funding goal quickly is the bigger draw or detractor. You could set your goal at $500 and hit it in 2 minutes. People KNOW you need more than $500. You could set it at $50,000 and hit it on day 30 .. maybe, because people KNOW you don't need $50k.

$17,500 to $25,000? Not that big a difference in the grand scheme of things; raising the full amount needed to produce, freight and fulfill your project .. THAT'S the most important thing. How you go about doing so is your choice and there are several viable options for it.

Right now, you're discussing shipping charges specifically and I'm not sure you understand how Kickstarter projects are set up regarding shipping based on what you're saying. Yes, it adds to your funding raised towards your goal, but it is set up so that people know what they are paying (specifically; $X for the game + $Y for shipping based on location, where $Y is added AFTER selecting a reward level).

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questccg wrote: Note: And if

questccg wrote:

Note: And if you think about the "real world" like Amazon or any other website selling you something... You get the PRICE of the item in question and then at "check-out" you get the cost of shipping and usually there are options according to how fast you want your item to be delivered... So it's "price of the item" FIRST and then SHIPPING.

I know Amazon offers discounts like buy more than $X dollars and you get FREE shipping... I'm just trying to illustrate that most times in sales, the cost of shipping is added LATER.

...Exactly like pledging to a Kickstarter campaign with shipping included within the campaign;

1. Select your pledge level for $X
2. KS shows you your pledge level and tells you shipping will be $Y to your country.
3. Accept that and confirm your pledge
OR Decline and don't back.

You're getting the price of the item, then you get your shipping cost, then you choose to accept or decline.

I Will Never Gr...
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A further note,

Your numbers are also off regarding cost of shipping etc. I'll try to explain as best I can;

Let's use your example of a $35 price tag for your base pledge level.

This would, realistically, mean that your game cost you $7 to manufacture and freight to warehouse/fulfillment/your home. Let's say $10.

To manufacture 500 copies @ $10 = $5,000

To bring in $5,000 you would need 143 backers @ $35.

This means you would need to ship +/- 150 copies of the game.

Assuming shipping is $10 (round number), that's $1500 in shipping.

This means you need $5000 + 1500 = $6500 (plus factor in another 20% for fees and incidentals, so say $8000)

Let's go hog wild and say your game, at 500 copies, is $25 landed cost + $10 shipping to backers. First of all, you'd be underselling it at $35 but that aside;

$25 * 500 = $12,500 manufacturing and freight
358 backers @ $35 to reach that expense
360 * $10 shipping = $3600

$12,500 + 3600 = $16,100 you'd need to raise (plus factor in another 20% for fees and incidentals, so say $19,500)

In either of these cases, you're left with a bunch of leftover copies of your game OR, happy days, you over funded and got more backers, selling off those extra copies at a larger profit margin per copy (since they're already 100% paid for once you hit your goal) or decreasing your costs by increasing your manufacturing quantity!

To say you need to add $6000 to your goal to ship those 500 copies @ $12 .. sure, but ONLY if you had 500 backers, which you do not, ever, need to reach your minimum viable goal and so you won't need to add $6000 to your minimum viable goal.

There are some great calculators out there that will give you a rough estimate of how much you need to raise to create your game from the ground up all the way to final consumer. I would look into them!

questccg
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Your numbers are close but a bit off.

It's almost $30 x 500 = $15,000 manufacturing, freight and expenses.

500 backers @ $35 = $17,500 (My Funding Goal)

500 x $13 shipping = $6,500

$17,500 + $6,500 = $24,000

My Profit = $2,500

Those are the "correct" figures... I'm not going to go thru all the trouble of a KS and not make a little profit. What's the point otherwise?!

I'm trying to get the Reward level as LOW as possible and my profitability a bit... Which can scale with more backers.

Note: This is NOT a 5x multiplier between COST and REWARD... It's like $20 to MAKE and $10 for expenses (Art, Writing, Graphic Design, Ads, Prototypes, Review fees, KS Fee). That's why the margins are so *tight*. I'm only making about $5 per game sold.

Jay103
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But with no real profit

But with no real profit margin, you're requiring that you get all 500 backers. Like.. I built 1000 units, but only needed about 280 backers or whatever it was.

As a result, the amount of money I would've needed was:

Landed cost of 1000 units + (call it $15000)
Shipping costs of 280 units (call it $3500)

$18,500 (no profit, art expenses not covered)

I didn't need to factor in the shipping costs of the other 720 units, because I didn't need to ship those as part of my minimum qualifying total.

questccg
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Has to make some profit!

Jay103 wrote:
But with no real profit margin, you're requiring that you get all 500 backers...

Can't afford to do a KS without profitability. I'm factoring a minimum +$X which is REQUIRED otherwise I will be in the RED yet again... And that means more losses that I can no longer FUND with my reserves.

Everything needs to be accounted for (expenses), paid for and there needs to be a small but still present profit... This is my third game and I've got quite a lot of experience with KS, TGC, Game Design and Sales. Without profit ... I would have a hard time achieving a POSITIVE BALANCE (Black) with this potential KS...

Jay103
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Actually I meant you need

Actually I meant you need more profit.

questccg
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That's an interesting point

But I remember having a discussion with JT (the founder of The Game Crafter). And at that time we were discussing profitability of games on TGC. During the discussion (I don't remember how it got to it) I said something like: "That's only $5.00 of profitability." And JT's remark was something like: "On our platform, $5.00 is a HEALTHY profit." And this was because the individual one-off production price was HIGH. That was before BOF and Bulk Discounts... But still to this day, the one-off production price is still high. And effectively making $5.00 of profit is not "unreasonable".

The second point I wanted to make is ... that while the *cost* to buy one (1) Wizard's "Grimoire" with everything you need is $35 USD. To PLAY you need a minimum of three (3) such "Grimoires"! So that's $105 USD. Plus you need a game board which is sold separately at $20 USD. So that's $125 USD before shipping. So the final PRICE is probably around $155 USD with shipping included... So you now see my dilemma and how I want to LOWER the "Reward" price as much as possible. But you understand now that I am only making $5.00 a game... Which means with three (3) "Grimoires", I make $15.00.

So I'm not sure about this whole "concept". It's a moving target and we'll have to see more as the game is more "fully" developed.

Thanks for pointing out that I needed "more" profit. As you can see... with a slim margin, I can still maybe get something interesting. As long as Backers see it as being a "worthwhile" game... There is a question of "Perceived Value"!

I Will Never Gr...
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questccg wrote:It's almost

questccg wrote:
It's almost $30 x 500 = $15,000 manufacturing, freight and expenses.

500 backers @ $35 = $17,500 (My Funding Goal)

500 x $13 shipping = $6,500

$17,500 + $6,500 = $24,000

My Profit = $2,500

Those are the "correct" figures... I'm not going to go thru all the trouble of a KS and not make a little profit. What's the point otherwise?!

I'm trying to get the Reward level as LOW as possible and my profitability a bit... Which can scale with more backers.

Note: This is NOT a 5x multiplier between COST and REWARD... It's like $20 to MAKE and $10 for expenses (Art, Writing, Graphic Design, Ads, Prototypes, Review fees, KS Fee). That's why the margins are so *tight*. I'm only making about $5 per game sold.

Are you using print on demand for your manufacturing? If not, I can't imagine why your cost is so high. That seems to be a large part of the battle right there.

Combine that with the requirement to have 3 copies + a board, etc reaching $155 to play the game means you're in extremely pricey, dangerous territory for funding, especially since you need 500+ to, essentially, break even (you always have to account for unexpected expenses by adding +/- 10% to what you think you need).

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Board no longer! (LOL)

I Will Never Grow Up Gaming wrote:
Are you using print on demand for your manufacturing?

Yes I am using "The Game Crafter" (TGC) quotes. BOF (Bulk Order Fulfillment) is priced at a discounted price of about $20 USD with orders of 100+ units. Additional expenses are about $10 USD making the least expensive price to make $30 USD (and that might have $1-2 which is equivalent to your 10%).

I Will Never Grow Up Gaming wrote:
Combine that with the requirement to have 3 copies + a board, etc reaching $155 to play the game means you're in extremely pricey, dangerous territory for funding, especially since you need 500+ to, essentially, break even (you always have to account for unexpected expenses by adding +/- 10% to what you think you need).

Well after some not too impressive samples, I'm positive that I am dropping the board and am planning to use a "Word Count" instead to control how many tiles get played. This means $20 USD less and therefore something like $125 USD (For three "Grimoires" with shipping and insurance included). It's still pricey... But I'm working on making it LESS "expensive" (To the best of my abilities)! It's about $20 USD to ship three (3) "Grimoires" anywhere in the continental USA.

I definitely have some more thinking with regards to the players and their schools of magic... In addition to resolving an aspect that has to do with dice rolling... Keep you all posted (Perhaps in my Blog instead).

questccg
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More thinking required

I've got options to think about. If I can get the game collection to about $25 USD, three (3) "Grimoires" plus $25 shipping, that would mean $100 USD for a three player kit... Not totally unreasonable.

There are a couple of things that bother me with TGC. One of them being their notepads. They use staples. I would want something like most notepads with the glue and tear away style.

Anyhow more thought required.

Jay103
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Hmm, I have a China Factory

Hmm, I have a China Factory price for notepads around SOMEWHERE... originally planned to have character sheets included.

questccg
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Curious?!

Jay103 wrote:
Hmm, I have a China Factory price for notepads around SOMEWHERE... originally planned to have character sheets included.

That could be interesting. The quote I have is for 40 dual-sided sheets but like I said, they use "staples" instead simply "tear away" style. TGC's price is 40 pages for $2.99 USD. I imagine that the price of this component is somewhat "competitive"... The problem is it's format (with staples) that poses the biggest problem.

If you could find that quote... I'd be curious to know the estimate.

My "notepad" would be the "Scroll Pad" where you would write down all of your spells that you "cast". It can help in future games to simplify the challenge of the game...

Jay103
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Scorepad7.62x12.7cmwhite/bl

Scorepad
7.62x12.7cm
white/black
20 pages
Bound on top
1
$50
$0.35

(printed one side, greyscale, 3" x 5", $50 setup charge for the printing, MOQ is 1000)

questccg
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Some comments

Well I think some things are good like "Black & White" printing, but I would choose "dual-sided" and the page count is too low with 20 pages, I would prefer about 50 pages (so dual-sided means about 100 scroll pages). The binding is "questionable"?? What does "bound on top" mean? I would be looking for notepads with a thin glue/plastic like spine. So you can easily tear away sheets one at a time. It's also a bit bigger (3.5" x 5.5")...

But $0.35 is pretty good. But I'd imagine than it would be a 500 unit production (maybe higher if I manage to get the price lowered by using a Broker to handle my production overseas)... Still it gives me an idea.

Thank you!

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questccg wrote:Well I think

questccg wrote:
Well I think some things are good like "Black & White" printing, but I would choose "dual-sided" and the page count is too low with 20 pages, I would prefer about 50 pages (so dual-sided means about 100 scroll pages). The binding is "questionable"?? What does "bound on top" mean? I would be looking for notepads with a thin glue/plastic like spine. So you can easily tear away sheets one at a time. It's also a bit bigger (3.5" x 5.5")...

But $0.35 is pretty good. But I'd imagine than it would be a 500 unit production (maybe higher if I manage to get the price lowered by using a Broker to handle my production overseas)... Still it gives me an idea.

Thank you!


Well, that's what I had the quote for :)

The binding is the glue kind. Can either be bound on top or on the side.. that didn't affect the price.

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I understand what you mean now!

Jay103 wrote:
...The binding is the glue kind. Can either be bound on top or on the side.. that didn't affect the price.

Ah I see... Now I understand about the "bound on top". In terms of the notepad, the glue is placed at the top of the notepad to bind the pages together... I didn't understand the meaning of this until you explained it to me.

Thank you. Yes that's more or less what I am looking for. I submitted the idea for the binding to be glue on top and JT's response was that it takes more that an day to use such processes and would therefore not be practical for "The Game Crafter" to do the notepads in that fashion.

Oh well... It looks like I am going to NEED to deal with a "Broker".

I don't want to have any surprises with directly dealing with Chinese Manufacturers... I don't know how to hire inspectors and am not aware about how to handle FOB Freight ... A Broker would ensure that the product makes it to the fulfillment center in the USA.

Yes they are more expensive than DIRECT. But at the same time, they offer more guarantees that the product is made and shipped without any defects or delays.

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I can give you some

I can give you some references to my people if you need..

(Ningbo Lijia to manufacture FOB, Quartermaster to get it to a warehouse in Florida and ship to customers, and Sofeast for quality inspection of the final product ($299 for my thing)) Could provide a direct introduction of course. Don't think I get referral credit but you never know :)

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