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Passion, Pride and Prejudice: social deduction party card game

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Paul Ott
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Could use some thoughts on a social deduction party card game.

It's based on Victorian/Regency era courtship and inspired by the likes of Jane Austen.

Each player has a Pride card with a random combination of three traits. The possible traits and examples of what they mean:
-wealth (house/land/portraits)
-beauty (and or age)
-title (court/royalty/officer in army)
-fashion (clothes/jewelry/paintings)
-talents (books/music/wit)

Haven't decided whether this card is visible to all immediately, or is quickly learned over the first few rounds of play. It will be available, somehow.

Each player also a Passion card that depicts one trait. This is hidden information. This is what they are trying to find in another player.

I'm considering having a third card called Prejudice that also depicts a trait and is negatively scored somehow, like maybe if Player1 has Pride with wealth and a Prejudice with wealth, it's useless for Player2 who has Passion of wealth to try to partner with them. Maybe Prejudice cancels that player's Pride.

Each turn players get together in small groups and reveal one hidden card (Passion, or Prejudice, possible Pride) to each other. Eventually players exchange Partner cards, and become a pair for scoring at the end. Scoring is individual, as it is possible to Partner poorly where you do bad but your partner wins.

What I'd like to do is change the rules so that players are more interested in how others are partnering up. Maybe somehow change the Passion and Prejudice cards to include all partnerships across the table.

Also, what are y'alls thoughts on each player not knowing all their own cards at the start? Maybe they only know two from the three types (Pride, Passion, Prejudice) and they have to have others learn about the card they don't know, and then that other player has to share the info if they choose.

Jay103
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Interesting to me, because my

Interesting to me, because my wife loves Jane Austin but hates social deduction games.

I don't think I have a clear idea of your gameplay. Giving a couple of explicit examples of cards might help.

I'd think prejudice would manifest as a player valuing one of the traits more than it's worth otherwise. So player A is prejudiced to overvalue beauty in a partner, and B, wealth.

Paul Ott
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Player1 Pride card has

Player1
Pride card has Wealth, Beauty, Talent
Passion card has Wealth
Prejudice card has Fashion

Player2
Pride card has Title, Fashion, Talent
Passion card has Beauty
Prejudice card has Wealth

Player3
Pride card has Beauty, Title, Fashion
Passion card has Wealth
Prejudice card has Talent

Player4
Pride card has Wealth, Title, Talent
Passion card has Talent
Prejudice card has Fashion

You might think of Passion as your goal, and Pride is the object of that goal. Your own Pride card is what you have to offer to others to help them achieve their Passion.

With the Prejudice card I'm trying to add a negative element to matching in addition to matching for positive qualities.

I'm trying to think of a way to make people interested in other's partnerships.

let-off studios
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Cards with Point Values

I confess I have yet to completely think this through, but there may be a way to assist and/or sabotage players by attempting to deduce their prejudices and loading their hand with those types of cards. This might be doable if you add another stage to the sharing phase of the game, where players pass a card from their hand to the hand of someone else - as long as it doesn't match the type of card revealed by that player - you may be able to add some player influence without too much chaos.

This also initially came to mind with the idea of having "point values" on the cards for the different qualities. A player may have in their hand, for example, Beauty cards with 1, 2, and 3 on them, respectively. They can trade these with other players in an effort to partner with them or to unload a lower-magnitude prejudice card.

Thinking is a bit addled at the moment as this is a short time before my day job begins, but the main idea is that players pass cards of different magnitudes belonging to the different qualities, and the score of their final hand is influenced by their partner.

Hopefully this is helpful! Apologies in advance.

Jay103
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I just.. have no idea what

I just.. have no idea what gameplay looks like, nor any idea of how the deduction happens and to what end.

If you're looking to "add prejudice" in there somewhere, I'd write down a concrete and complete rulebook and then see what needs to be enhanced. I don't get the feeling that any of the gameplay is even decided so far.

Paul Ott
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let-off studios wrote:the

let-off studios wrote:
the main idea is that players pass cards of different magnitudes belonging to the different qualities, and the score of their final hand is influenced by their partner.

Hopefully this is helpful! Apologies in advance.


This is a good idea. Definitely worth mulling over. Thank you.

Paul Ott
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Jay103 wrote:I just.. have no

Jay103 wrote:
I just.. have no idea what gameplay looks like, nor any idea of how the deduction happens and to what end.

If you're looking to "add prejudice" in there somewhere, I'd write down a concrete and complete rulebook and then see what needs to be enhanced. I don't get the feeling that any of the gameplay is even decided so far.


I've had two sets of rules so far, and neither captured the experience I'm after.

I'm trying to capture the experience of upper class courtship in Victorian/Regency era fiction.
(Players have Pride cards depicting their qualities. Hidden information that is easy to find out.)

Imagine going to a dance that wealthy and social influencers from the neighborhood attend.
(Every turn players organize into groups. Can only attend one event per turn. Some hidden information is revealed by others at the same event.)

You and a few of your friends are looking for marriage.
(By the end of the game, the primary determination of the winner is through a 'partnership'.)

You're trying to find a good fit for what you want.
(Passion card depicts the quality you're looking for in a partner.)

While avoiding a bad fit.
(Maybe you're blind to your own needs in some way [Prejudice?], or blind to some aspect of your partner [Prejudice/Vice?]. Hidden information that isn't easy to get.)

Information sharing and partnership take place through some physically visible way, so others may be able to deduce more information from watching interactions. If I know you're after wealth, and I see you spending several turns with another, I can deduce they have wealth and can share this deduction with another in exchange for new information.

Paul Ott
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Oh, and people in these

Oh, and people in these stories care about how others match up too. That's a big part of the drama: is my sister going to marry well or be swindled; I don't want her to marry beneath her status, etc. I'd like for how others match up to be a secondary deciding factor for victory somehow.

Paul Ott
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Jay103 wrote:Interesting to

Jay103 wrote:
Interesting to me, because my wife loves Jane Austin but hates social deduction games.

I'd be curious to hear why. Is it the lying/bluffing?

I've reviewed some research on women's preferences in gaming, and even sent out one questionnaire of my own. From what I've gathered, women on average prefer games with roleplaying, pattern matching over points/math heavy, and coop over direct competition.

Jay103
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It sounds like a hidden

It sounds like a social deduction game where you strictly benefit from revealing your information. I want the best possible partner, so I go into a group and I'm motivated to make sure they know everything about me. There is no "opponent", hidden or otherwise.

Maybe I'm misreading it, but if not, well, that's sort of the opposite of the point of having hidden information.

In a game like Clue, you want to solve a mystery first, so you keep your information hidden so others can't figure it out before you.

In Werewolf or Secret Hitler (etc.), you want to locate or at least neutralize a hidden opponent.

In SpyFall or Chameleon (etc.), you want to convince others that you know a piece of secret information (even if you don't), without giving away too much of that information (if you do).

What is it you're trying to either keep hidden or uncover before your opponents here?

Quote:
I'd be curious to hear why. Is it the lying/bluffing?
I think so, yes..

Paul Ott
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I'm thinking that your own

I'm thinking that your own Prejudice can be negative for your partner. Likewise, their Prejudice card can be detrimental to you.

So you want to reveal everything about yourself, except your Prejudice. You might not even know your own Prejudice at the start of the game.

Likewise, each player is limited in how much information they can reveal, and to how many people. The ability to peek at others' cards to learn about them and to fact check is limited.

Let's say there is a table of 6 players. Each round, players divide up into groups to attend Events. Players can share Pride card information with everyone else at the Event. After a few rounds, you're going to know who you're interested in. You have to match your Passion card to their Pride, and convince them to partner with you.

But over the course of the 8 rounds of play you can only look at two Prejudice or Passion cards. Everyone can't verify firsthand everyone's Passion or Prejudice. So players have to trade learned information or watch how people interact with people whose info you do know.

I think this could work well. I still want players to take a stronger interest in how other people at the table partner up. Maybe at the end of the game we can add up how many of each Pride attribute were successfully partnered (not counting an attribute if the owner partnered with someone with a Prejudice of that same attribute). Then the players with the three most matched Pride cards win.

Jay103
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I'm still just not getting

I'm still just not getting it.

So in a round, of which there are 8, I basically just go up to someone and say "I have wealth, beauty and title", and they say, "I have beauty, fashion, and talent". My "passion" is fashion, so I say, cool, let's hook up. And if they need one of my three things (a 60+% chance), they say yes, and if they don't, they don't? Repeat 7 more times?

(and 8 rounds?? Just how high is the minimum number of players??)

Even if you add "prejudice" as a negative I'm supposed to "deduce", how exactly would I gain information about other people's prejudice cards? (and with so many people, how would I effectively track it if I did?)

ArkhamArkhiver
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Love Social Deduction Games

This is a place-holder for later, but I am very interested in this game premise and theme. I love social deduction games, and this sounds like it has a lot of potential.

Paul Ott
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Jay103 wrote: So in a round,

Jay103 wrote:

So in a round, of which there are 8, I basically just go up to someone and say "I have wealth, beauty and title", and they say, "I have beauty, fashion, and talent". My "passion" is fashion, so I say, cool, let's hook up. And if they need one of my three things (a 60+% chance), they say yes, and if they don't, they don't? Repeat 7 more times?
Thanks for the comments. I may not be communicating enough detail for it to be clear. There are also Prejudice cards to consider. Both of you would have to check each other's Prejudice card. There is a chance the first person you meet will match everything, and that's okay. If you each match the other's Passion card while not matching the Prejudice card, hopefully you can take an interest how everyone else is partnering up.

If something doesn't match up with the first person, then you have other options. You can try to hook up with them again to exchange Prejudice card information, as it should be of interest to you to know your own Prejudice. Or do you go try to find others to talk to in order to find out new info?

If you are only limited to two Peek Prejudice cards per game, do you use card #2 right away, or do you go to Events and gossip with others first to try to narrow it down some?

Jay103 wrote:

(and 8 rounds?? Just how high is the minimum number of players??)
I don't know yet. It's a party game, so I'm okay if the minimum is 5.

Jay103 wrote:

Even if you add "prejudice" as a negative I'm supposed to "deduce", how exactly would I gain information about other people's prejudice cards?
Each player starts one or two (depending on number of players) uses of peeking at someone else's Prejudice card.

Jay103 wrote:

(and with so many people, how would I effectively track it if I did?)

Track it as you go, remember the important people, discard the rest.

Jay103
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Paul Ott wrote:Thanks for the

Paul Ott wrote:
Thanks for the comments. I may not be communicating enough detail for it to be clear. There are also Prejudice cards to consider. Both of you would have to check each other's Prejudice card.

Before it didn't sound like you'd really locked down what the Prejudice card would do.

ArkhamArkhiver
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Belated Reply / Cool Game

Okay, so I'm not editing my previous place-holder comment because I want to bump this thread.

Games sounds very neat, but I agree with Jay103. I'm unclear on the rules and I'm having a tough time wondering why I wouldn't just reveal as much info as possible to a potential partner in order to either get the yes or no on whether we're a good match.

Here are some ideas:

--Setup: Players has a single card in front of them that tells them their 3 prides, 1 passion, and 1 prejudice. These are dealt out randomly.
--Setup: At the start of the game, each player reveals their Prejudice to the player on their right; then each player reveals their Passion to the player on the left.
--Setup: There is a deck of 'Gift' cards and/or 'Event' cards that pertains to the traits you want: Wealth, Beauty, Titles, Fashion, Talents.
--Play: Players draw a certain number of Gift or Event cards per turn, and then during their turn, give Gifts to other players (who can refuse a Gift? maybe suggest (only once) that they pass along the Gift to someone else?) or play Events which temporarily pair them up (letting them share info, expose info, or give info, or swap gifts from hand, or some other number of effects.)
--Winning: Players win as pairs / partners (so there are always two winners).
--Point Scoring: Gifts are worth a certain number of points if you take Pride in them. Gifts that coincide with your Passion are worth extra points. Gifts that you are Prejudice against act as negative points. If you are Prejudiced against your partners Prides, those are negative points. If you are Prejudiced against your Partners Passion, its even more negative points. Players get bonus points for each of their Prides that aligns with their partners Prides. If they have matching Passions, then they get bonus points.

So each turn / round would be you going on Events with people or giving Gifts to people. Players are encouraged to watch which players continually give each other Gifts, what type of Gift, which Gifts players refuse, and which players pick other players for Events. This clues them into which Passions, Prides, and Prejudices people have. The Event cards are what let you get info on one another (generally with some other effect) or otherwise manipulate the board / players hands / players choices. Because players start with a bit of info (the player to your right knows your Prejudice, and the player to your left knows your Passion) it gives everyone a little bit of info to work with, initially. Because there's only a set number of rounds, and presumably the play goes quickly, the players must choose between playing Events (getting info) and giving Gifts (scoring points).

Examples of Gift cards:

Portrait (counts as Wealth AND Beauty)
Barony (Title)
Admiralty (Title)
Diamond Earrings (counts as Fashion AND Wealth)
Noble Lineage (counts as Beauty AND Title)
Opal Eyes (Beauty)
Blessed Bust (Beauty; Female only)
Apollo's Belt (Beauty; Male only)
Palatial Estate (Wealth)
Stables (Wealth)
300 Acres (Wealth)
Quick Witted (Talent; you can suggest another player receive a Gift instead; the Gift can't be offered to you again)
Social Charm (Talent; you can participate in any Event you aren't chosen for)
Cunning Linguist (Talent; bonus points if your partner is Female)
Vintage Wine (Wealth)
Antique Heirlooms (counts as Wealth AND Fashion)
etc.etc.etc.

Examples of Events:

Garden Party (Starting with you and going counter-clockwise, each player reveals their Passion to the player on their right.)
Planned Outing (Choose another player. Reveal a Gift that corresponds to one of your traits, and then reveal an Event card to them. That player does the same to you.)
Picnic
Quality Time (Choose another player. Each of you reveals your Passion, Pride, & Prejudice card to one another.)
Rendezvous (Choose another player. Reveal a Gift corresponding with one of your traits. That player does the same.)
Impromptu Gathering (Choose at least four people. Starting with you and going clockwise, each of you reveals a Passion to a player who has not yet revealed a Passion.)
Written Correspondence (This turn, reveal a Gift that corresponds to a Pride or Passion you have to another player. Next turn, that player must do the same to you.)
Love Letter (Choose a player and reveal to them up to three Gifts that indicate your Prides and/or Passions.)
Friend's Wedding:
Birthday Celebration: (Choose a player. He or she reveals his or her Prides to all players. Each player must give that player at least one Gift from their hands.)
Palla Grande (Something cool.)
Galloping Gala (Something cool.)
etc.etc.etc.

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