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Thoughts on these new set of weapons types?

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X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013

So, my players got a bit busy again with the new rules I thought of.

First of all, the new "vision" mechanic works great. But it needs some fine tuning I guess.

There are now 6 kind of weapons, regarding this "vision" mechanic. Which I couldn't do before due to balance reasons.

- Normal
- Piercing
- Volatile
- Arc
- Flow
- Seeker

*Normal is obstructed by all obstacles. Depending on the map, the accuracy can drop very fast. Weight is 100%.

*Piercing ignores all obstacles. The super rail guns if you will. Weight is 200%.

*Volatile will only ignore obstacles in the target location. A high explosive grenade could fall in this category, but also a canister with gas. Weight is range plus 1, divided by range.

*Arc ignores all obstacles between the attacker and the target. The first set of artillery fall in this category. Weight starts at 133.3%, but goes up as range goes up, it never reaches 200% though.

*Flow ignores the first few obstacles to a certain range, then will act normal further on. The energy on the flow is gone, if you will. Flamethrower weapons that rely on napalm distribution fall in this category. The weight is calculated the same as that of the Arc. But with the difference that the 0 spot also counts as ignoring obstacles.

*Seeker ignores 1 to a few obstacles, but is limited to only a few. Heat seeking missiles fall in this category. The location of the obstacles is free, unlike the Volatile, Arc and the Flow weapons. This makes an equal amount of Seeker being the average as if it was between the other 3 types and Piercing. The 0 spot and range 1 share 1 level, just like the flow types.

If I would apply 4 range (medium in the game) to all 6 weapons. (4 range contains the spots 0 to 4, thus 5 spots):

- Normal would weight 100%.

- Piercing would be 200%.

- Volatile would be 120%.

- Arc would be 160%. Because 3/5th is between attacker and target at a maximum range.

- Flow with 1 piercing level would be 140%, 2 gives 160%, and 3 ignore levels is 180%. Simply because the first level is actually 2 spots already.

- Seeker, with 1 level would be 170%, 2 levels 180% and 3 levels 190%. 4 levels is of course 200%, but this design is possible to differentiate between piercing and seeker types when upgrading range by XP spending.


I don't know.
Too much detail?
It sure gives a brand new set of flavour to the game.
If you where a player. Would you choose seekers or not?
And if you choose seekers, would you stick with the lowest level, or pick a higher one?
Only seekers give me a bit of a troubled feeling tbh.

Another way to deal with things, is simply remove all. Except for seekers. Then simply put this "seeking" on any other type. And push the lower levels, lower to the 100%.

X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013
Now that I slept on it.

Now that I slept on it. Seekers surely have a too high of a cost. Although, it is practically balanced outside the list of seekers. It is not inside the list.

In the example, I need to get the numbers between:
140 and 200
160 and 200
180 and 200

I tried average.
Can't multiply the number above 100 by 1.5.
But perhaps multiply the difference by 1.5 and subtract it from 200.

I would get:
Which are numbers that I can easily work with for this range.

X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013
Don't mind the math. It is

Don't mind the math. It is hidden for the players. The closest they get to it is when they design their own units.

But a simple question.
How would you guys handle the difference in weight between:
Normal (minimum bonus)
Specified bonus (somewhere halfway)
Free bonus
Maximum bonus

X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013
Seems that this whole idea doesn't work.

I made a grave mathematical error.

The basics are:
Range 0 costs 60%. And 20% is added every range.
But I was considering Range 0 as a 20% for the factors.

While a pure piercing weapon is still 200%. It is so on all ranges. And there is no debate. So, I can keep it.

But the other idea's, are very difficult at the moment. It is a puzzle for me. I need to make a clear difference between the 0 range and any other possible range.

X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013
This might be the solution

Considering the Piercing weapons to be a secondary weapon shows good and simple results.

As if you have a double weapon. Easy to understand for the players. And easy in design.

A normal weapon build up is 0.6, 0.8, 1.0, +0.2 every range.
A piercing weapon is exactly double the amount.
And I don't look at where the terrain is ignored. I only count, how many regions have the terrain ignored.


If I look back now at the initial track for an unit with range 4. I get to these results:

1.4 Normal
2.8 Piercing

2.0 Volatile
2.4 Arc

2.0 Flow 0
2.2 Flow 1
2.4 Flow 2
2.6 Flow 3
2.8 Flow 4

If it is correct? I don't know yet.


Some weapons have cheaper XP on range, others have a more expensive XP on range.

Piercing and arc are *2.
Normal, volatile and flow are *1.


What remains is figuring out, how Seeker should function.

A level 4 seeker with range 4 is the same as a piercing weapon with range 4.

A level 0 to 3 seeker, have freedom in their choice of which regions are to be ignored.
A level 0, will be able to ignore 1 region.
But this region can be at range 0 to 4.

To make sure you understand.
Let's compare this level 0 seeker with a volatile weapon.
If the target is hiding, then both will be able to hit the target for 100%.

But if the target is behind an obstacle.
The volatile weapon is obstructed.
But the seeker can choose to ignore that obstacle instead.

If there is an obstacle AND the target is hiding.
The volatile weapon is obstructed by the obstacle. But can still hit the target if it gets through.
The seeker is obstructed by either the obstacle, or where the target is hiding. Either way, it looks like it is just as effective as a volatile weapon in this situation.

The 2 obstacles can be different in the amount of obstruction. It can range from 1 to 6. So, the seeker will obviously choose the region with the highest obstruction.
I think, it is best to simply not consider this. But also not consider the situation at all, if there are 2 obstacles in play.

As you can see, I am doubtful about the seekers.

X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013
Instincts and math

I was right about that Volatile weapons are the same as Seeker weapons.
Except for the difference of a fixed location and freedom.

Either way, Volatile weapons are a bit more expensive. The 2.0 is now 2.2 for 4 range. This because I determined that if the start location is weak to the piercing effect. This always counts.
The total price is determined on the maximum range that an unit uses.

I determined all ranges and all types of piercing weapons.
The bonus range rule, will be applied on piercing as well, if the last region in the range is piercing. Thus a flow weapon that has level 4 and 4 range, a range of 5 will be piercing here.


Seeker weapons of the first level are the same as the Volatile weapons in number of regions that have the piercing effect. However, the freedom should be added.

Average is a NOGO
Calculating the average gives ridiculous high numbers. But the addition for every new level is also weird.

Square root of the multiplication is a NOGO
A very old text based game that I had. There a multiplication was used to determine the "average". So square root out of A*B if you will.
This comes closer, but leaves out a lot. Really a lot of options. Because rounding is something that I don't want to do.
Also, the XP addition would be nearly to impossible to be logic.

X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013
An eureka moment

I found a way to balance the seekers as well.

If a player wants to add the seeker bonus to a weapon. It starts as if it is a volatile or flow weapon in worth.

But every next level of seeker is worth less in comparison.
While a normal piercing ability is an addition of 0.2
The seeker addition is depending on the number that is possible.
And the number that is possible is depending on the range.

If an unit has a range of 4. The first seeker will weight 4, the second 3, then 2, and finally 1. Why?
Because the first seeker has 4 options and the last seeker has no other option where to be active. And the weapon on the whole range is now a piercing weapon if all 4 are added.

These weights have to be translated to a factor in addition. The sum of 1 to 4, is 10. The average is 2.5. But we need to lower the weights down, so all weights are divided by this 2.5. And finally multiplied by 0.2 for the addition.

4, 3, 2 and 1 become.
0.32, 0.24, 0.16 and 0.08.

To see this in action in the balance. The build up of the weapons flow versus seeker. Both with range 4, but both starting at level 0:
Normal is 1.4
F l o w: 2.00 - 2.20 - 2.40 - 2.60 - 2.80
Seeker: 1.40 - 2.32 - 2.56 - 2.72 - 2.80

The average of the sum indicates, which weapons will fit good with the seeker levels. For range 4, it is 2.5. So a weapon with the basic weight of 250 will fit in nicely. Basic weights of weapons start at 50 and add 50 for each tier. The average of the sum is based on the range and starts at 1 and will add 0.5 for each tier.

There are also golden spots. Where the number is nice and round. I am going to work out for range 1 to 12 in my personal manual.

Also, the XP for range of seekers is worth 150%. This is cheaper or expensive, depending on the level. But only normal range is added. The seeker will be able to be chosen in the new range. So in theory, it is more expensive when terrain remains good. But cheaper if there is bad terrain.

So... I am done and had success :)

X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013
The other 2 weapon types

The 2 weapon types that are influenced by the 3D terrain. (Not objects, but actually altitude of regions)

Those are reconsidered as well. And made more logical in weight. They only had effective range added for 50%. But they too need to have a 0 range for more balance.

What remains is vertical movement. I will create a separate topic on that one when ready.

Joined: 01/23/2019
I love the variety in the

I love the variety in the weapon types.

I suppose you might also consider the idea that a projectile can be only two of the following three:

Fast, Accurate or Cheap.

X3M's picture
Joined: 10/28/2013
stuartellis2 wrote:I love the

stuartellis2 wrote:
I love the variety in the weapon types.

I suppose you might also consider the idea that a projectile can be only two of the following three:

Fast, Accurate or Cheap.

Thank you.

I have indeed other weapon types.
Their focus is on other mechanic parts of the game.
The 3 that you mentioned are weaved all thoroughly in the game. If you are curious, I can post them.

The ones in this topic are those that interact different with the terrain. In terms of accuracy. But aren't cheap, nor fast.

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