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A question about cardboard

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Kyle Forrest
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For one of the games i am designing i need to make a about 70 tiles of various sizes that are flipped over. I need to make the tiles out of some heavy card stock, but all i can really find readily available is either corrugated cardboard (to squishy), regular printer style cardstock (to thin)and foam core (to light).

Can anyone tell me a place that i can get the heavy weight cardboard that most gameboards are made from?

Note: I am in Canada, so American or European Store that are not online might not be available to me, and big chunks of cardboard through the post may cost a fortune in postage.

let-off studios
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The Packaging Company

The Packaging Company has a "Canada" store. You may want to send inquiries there.

https://www.thepackagingcompany.com/

mwlgames
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Chipboard

I think what you are after is called Chipboard, 1.5mm (0.05") has a nice heft to it. A friend of mine uses a laser cutter for his custom sized stuff. I've also used a leather punch and mallet for punching out a few prototypes.

Kyle Forrest
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mwlgames wrote:I think what

mwlgames wrote:
I think what you are after is called Chipboard, 1.5mm (0.05") has a nice heft to it. A friend of mine uses a laser cutter for his custom sized stuff. I've also used a leather punch and mallet for punching out a few prototypes.

Chipboard might be a little much for what i am looking for.

I really am just hoping to find some heavy cardboard that doesn't bend when i glue things onto it and is heavy enough not to move around when used as a gameboard

Fri
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Other possible materials

Well chip board also comes in a two ply variety. At least it use to. Though it was very difficult to cut. You may also want to try museum board or a sheet of bass word.

Good luck with your game.

Jay103
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https://www.amazon.com/gp/pro
browwnrob
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Jay103

Jay103 wrote:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006YKF9II

I used this for my game board and it was great.

I used a chisel to cut out my tiles which were double sided also and gave me a really nice straight edge as I can't justify buying a laser cutter

bottercot
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That appears to be

That appears to be amazon.com.
I Canada we have amazon.ca, which has an entirely different selection.
The closest I found for copy-pasting the title of the amazon.com link was this:

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00161W6L8/ref=twister_B015Z1RJS4?_encoding=UTF...

Hopefully this is the same product. It appears to be.

Jay103
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bottercot wrote:That appears

bottercot wrote:
That appears to be amazon.com.
I Canada we have amazon.ca, which has an entirely different selection.
The closest I found for copy-pasting the title of the amazon.com link was this:

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00161W6L8/ref=twister_B015Z1RJS4?_encoding=UTF...

Hopefully this is the same product. It appears to be.


That definitely looks the same, though mine was "white", which is white on one side, and that's just "natural", so it depends on what you're going to do with it.

I printed my tokens and spray-glued the sheets to the cardboard (double-sided), and then cut them out (with a paper cutter and curved parts by hand). If you were planning to draw on it, you'd presumably want white.

"Medium weight" typically means 1.5mm, which is a standard size for things like punch-out stand-up tokens.

I Will Never Gr...
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https://www.amazon.ca/Grafix-

https://www.amazon.ca/Grafix-CB81125-Chipboard-11-Inch-Natural/dp/B00161...

Book Board .. that's what you want. You can find it at a lot of art supply stores, such as Curry's.

The link above is for board that is about 2mm thick, which would be, in game component terms, a bit of a premium thickness, but it will work for a prototype. You can probably find 1.5mm thick.

The game I published has 2mm thick tiles consisting of 1.5mm board + 250gsm paper on both sides to total 2mm. They're about the same thickness as Carcassonne or Catan tiles.

pelle
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I Will Never Grow Up Gaming

I Will Never Grow Up Gaming wrote:
https://www.amazon.ca/Grafix-CB81125-Chipboard-11-Inch-Natural/dp/B00161W6L8/ref=sr_1_3?gclid=CjwKCAjwlujnBRBlEiwAuWx4LVAcTJxBEGcRGJsmhaZqbFFVp0dwsk8pxER88eXbWbYmfAg_0Xi_iRoC0QkQAvD_BwE&hvadid=208342852706&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9000920&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=12862574116104773437&hvtargid=kwd-299403914533&hydadcr=23345_9563109&keywords=book+board&qid=1559958608&s=gateway&sr=8-3

Book Board .. that's what you want. You can find it at a lot of art supply stores, such as Curry's.

The link above is for board that is about 2mm thick, which would be, in game component terms, a bit of a premium thickness, but it will work for a prototype. You can probably find 1.5mm thick.

The game I published has 2mm thick tiles consisting of 1.5mm board + 250gsm paper on both sides to total 2mm. They're about the same thickness as Carcassonne or Catan tiles.

I bought some very nice sheets here in Sweden of something called pärmpapp that is probably the same as book board. "Pärm" is the cover of a book, "papp" means cardboard (or any kind of thick paper really), and it indeed feels like what you could use to make nice book covers with. I bought 1.8 and 2.1 mm thick. Have used both, but not enough to make up my mind yet which one is better. But around 2 mm is nice. It is pretty soft and easy to cut with a rotary knife, although I read on boardgamegeek that it is very bad for the blade so will see how long my knife will survive.

questccg
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Check out The Game Crafer (TGC)

Kyle Forrest wrote:
...Can anyone tell me a place that i can get the heavy weight cardboard that most gameboards are made from?

Why don't you check CUSTOM "Punch-Outs" at "The Game Crafter" (TGC). You can custom design SHAPES using an SVG file (to follow the path of a laser) and this way everything is MADE for you... It will save you time and money later when you'll need more that ONE (1) Prototype (Say for Reviewer's copies or to send to several Publishers).

Check out their PRODUCTS page to see if they have what you need... But my guess their Punch-Outs (and custom ones) are probably what you are looking for...

Cheers.

Their Link/URL is: https://www.thegamecrafter.com/publish/products

pelle
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How does gamecrafter prices

How does gamecrafter prices for printing and laser-cutting compare to order from a company that specializes in only that, like Ponoko, if that is the only thing OP needs (as opposed to have an entire production-quality print-on-demand game made that gamecrafter specializes in)?

Anyway making your own is probably both much faster and cheaper than to order anything laser-cut from anywhere, especially for rectangular or circular shapes that are so trivial to cut. I can not imagine spending money on laser-cutting any components unless I am going to self-publish the game as a final prototype or for production.

My current WIP actually has pretty complex cardboard shapes, but for prototyping I simplify the shapes to just rectangles and the game can be played like that (and I also made a digital prototype that I use for most testing). I will cut out the proper complex shapes later by hand to try out, but I will still keep the simplified version around in case I ever get to blind playtest and similar and need to make print'n'play as easy as possible for the testers.

questccg
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I'm not 100% sure about CUSTOM pieces

But I'd guess the pricing is far off from their OWN "sets" of shapes...

So let's say it's comparable to "Large Square Chit" which is 1" x 1".

https://www.thegamecrafter.com/publish/product/LargeSquareChit

You get 8 of those Chits for $5.90.

So my guess is that the CUSTOM shapes would be comparable in price.

What I STRONGLY advocate ... is to NEVER simply make your own prototypes. If possible make them with The Game Crafter (TGC) because later on if you want to have the game reviewed by "Reviewers"... Nobody will want to MAIL back your ONLY prototype. Granted that for most FIRST prototypes, cardstock should be ENOUGH...

If you are going above and beyond a FIRST prototype... And you want a more professional looking prototype... TGC is a great place to START.

I realize that they are more "expensive" that DIY solutions... But then when you come to the time that you need to send copies to reviewers, blind playtesters, publishers, etc. You already have the TGC prototype READY to go!

Like I said ... IF this is not Prototype #1 or #2... And you've already playtested the game with just cardstock... This to me seems like a question of having a more professional appearance (product) and in this case TGC might be a good option for you.

Cheers!

Jay103
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questccg wrote:But I'd guess

questccg wrote:
But I'd guess the pricing is far off from their OWN "sets" of shapes...

So let's say it's comparable to "Large Square Chit" which is 1" x 1".

https://www.thegamecrafter.com/publish/product/LargeSquareChit

You get 8 of those Chits for $5.90.

Pretty sure you get *80* for $5.90 (plus shipping).

The laser cutting thing is a good idea if you think you might need more of whatever this is. Print 2 sheets to start, and then you could print another 4 later with no effort if necessary. Also if you want it to look more professional than just "cut by hand", though if you're making squares and you have a big paper cutter, it looks fine (but no rounded corners).

If you need 10 chits total, do it yourself.

pelle
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Quest, the question was about

Quest, the question was about designing, not publishing. I know that you have been self-publishing and therefore might have gotten the two roles somewhat confused, but to those of us that are purely interested in the design-side of games, like me, there is no reason at all to worry about sending prototypes to reviewers. That is publisher work, not designer work. There is no reason to make flashy prototypes for designing a game. Publishers pay for artists and worry about making nice prototypes/products.

Nice thick cardboard like the one I described above makes prototype pieces very functional and nice to use, even if the graphics I glue to them is never very pretty. It is also great of course for printing print'n'play games to make them look and feel better. But I do not see myself in a situation where I would send a prototype anywhere anyway. I have heard of publishers that ask for physical prototypes to be sent to them, but my only experience with having a game published was done purely by sending digital files, and that was so convenient I hope I do not end up having to do it any other way in the future, even if it means ignoring some publishers. If I do have to send someone a physical prototype to convince them to publish my game (... which means they are not terribly impressed by the game I guess, so maybe I should not bother?) I would probably make it myself anyway.

EDIT: BTW die-cutting standard shapes is likely to be MUCH cheaper than laser-cutting. If the costs are anywhere close that probably just means they are having very high profits per die-cut sheet.

questccg
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We just have different "styles", I guess.

Yes I understood... But I've always taken my Hand-Paper-Written Cards and turned them into Adobe AI cards in "Black & White"... But I often work on a COLOR "Template" for my cards using my own design skills. And then I get art done myself (most of the time) because when I pitch games to Publishers, I want them to see a "near finished" product.

I don't pitch "Game Ideas". There are far too many ideas that SOUND exciting but never get the time and day to become a real product other than being a prototype. My own designs are probably around 75% and even my Publisher took my own Graphic Template and ENHANCED the look of the cards too... So I offer the option on tweaking graphics and allow them to deal with my artist (which I already have invested in art).

These days, people want a SENSE of YOUR vision for a product. Not just a scrappy looking prototype. That's why I ALWAYS encourage people to make a more professional version of their prototype using "The Game Crafter".

Had I never gone forwards on my own with "TradeWorlds", it would have never gotten anywhere. I'm pretty sure of that ... because nobody came knocking on my door asking if I had a "prototype to show".

However from a PURELY design perspective... I guess having ONE (1) prototype is okay. I'd want my prototype to be as "professional" as possible even if it is NOT completed. And so I would invest in professionally made cards, punch-outs, player boards, etc. As one of the playtest groups told me: "Wow, this looks like a REAL game." And then I tell them: "It's only a prototype, but you get the direction that the product is headed in..."

I don't like CUTTING my own cards. Even cornering the edges isn't great if done manually. Nor are the cuts of the cards. Yes you can have guides ... but most of the time, it's NOT perfect. And since I ONLY have a B&W Laser printer, I get my cards (color) done at TGC. Even for prototypes.

But that again is my "own style" of designing. If my game is at 75%, there is about 15% room for improvement by the Publisher. At 90%, we all know that the time and money invested in trying to perfect the product even further is a waste of time and resources. Generally speaking most products at the 90% marker are "good enough" for public consumption.

For the most part, I am TRYING to self-publish most of my games AND THEN get picked up by a Publisher who likes what he/she sees and could picture the EVOLUTION of the product. But again that's my "own style" of how I market my own designs to the people who might want to take on a game.

No offense (to anyone). I understand the design-side of things... I just have a different approach when designing my games.

Best!

pelle
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I definitely make most of my

I definitely make most of my components on a computer (ahem... https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/299033/inkscape-extensions-boardgam...), and usually with some art (just not great art as I am not an artist). Not many hand-scribbled cards here, but I have playtested several games with very simple hand-drawn artwork+text, even from established designers working on games for large publishers, and there is nothing saying that the game design is any less complete just because someone is still working with components like that right until the last few months before the publisher sends off the game to a printer. I was in no way suggesting that anyone would try to sell an idea, but a game can be very complete and have been playtested for several years even if it still has no graphics at all.

Think I posted this somewhere before, but my favorite example that I experienced and can post about (as the photos were posted online by the designer... I do not want to leak any secret playtest information from other games that the designer or publisher did not share!) was Ben Hull's Fields of Fire, published in 2010. The published game has really amazing hight quality cards and graphics: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/22877/fields-fire/images
The prototype that was still used in playtesting after some 5 or so years of development right up until just before the game was printed looked like this:
https://boardgamegeek.com/image/121627/fields-fire

I think the publisher was involved very early as GMT had already published some of his games before that time, so I doubt he had to do much pitching, but even the first versions that was posted on CSW was far from just ideas and very complete games, even if the graphics was mostly colored rectangles with some text on.

There is a lot of talk about how to make nice prototypes around various forums, but mostly from unpublished designers, and it seems as if they are scaring each other into an increasing waste of resources going into making pretty prototypes instead of working on making the best games they can and leave graphics to professionals later on in the development process.

Of course if someone happen to also be a good artist there is no harm in spending a little time to make a better looking prototype. It can definitely help attract some playtesters and get some buzz around the game, or maybe win some online game design contest etc, which is a great help if the game itself is perhaps not so original or interesting that publishers or players will notice it otherwise.

questccg
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I understand what you mean...

pelle wrote:
Of course if someone happen to also be a good artist there is no harm in spending a little time to make a better looking prototype. It can definitely help attract some playtesters and get some buzz around the game, or maybe win some online game design contest etc, which is a great help if the game itself is perhaps not so original or interesting that publishers or players will notice it otherwise.

But what is wrong in investing in ART/Illustration??? To improve the overall look of the game?? I can't do art myself (actually I am pretty good at B&W Sketches but coloring I'm very poor at), but I do have a network of artists based on how I invest time in mingling with artists and offering them a chance to "bring some of my games into reality"!

I'm always a bit "reluctant" when I speak with an artist that wants to work together with me... Because usually all you get is a look at their portfolio and samples. Oftentimes these are OTHER styles of art that you are NOT looking for... Making ART for cards is somewhat specific form of illustration. Ha... You should see the art Charles showed me... 5000% better in the art he made for us (meaning his samples were average compared to his amazing art for "TradeWorlds")!

So far, I have been very impressed with the overall Quality of the art.

Yes I know Madison's style is a bit more "cartoon-y" and Charles' is in a "World of his own". Geof is in between and can draw the type of illustrations you would find in an AD&D Monster Manual. Of course other techniques can be applied like inking as part of the process ... to make it feel a bit "comic-book-esque" ...

I LOVE "working with people". Artists, Creative Writers, Developers, Graphic Designers, etc. But depending on the project, there is only so much that a game can "produce".

And so I am limited to what I am able to do... Based on the conversion of how well games perform and what profits are left over after everything is said and done.

People have different approaches ... And I'm NOT saying mine is the best. It's just what has WORKED for me "so far" (in that my game will be "out there"). And the journey has been a bit bumpy ... not at all perfect. But I'm trying to make games people will enjoy to play and that at times, offer an "Ah-Ha!" moment when figuring out a turn or learning from mistakes in a tight game (for example).

The prototype artwork you mentioned ... is similar to my B&W Laser cards, I do in Adobe Illustrator myself. They are "functional"... And so far this is what I have besides "TradeWorlds". But I am producing more art for "Monster Keep" ... because I want to move this design forwards.

I don't suggest to say: "Do it my way..." Quite the contrary... I just suggest investing in better prototypes because it CAN affect how people perceive you. If you demo a "prototype" without art, you will get a vastly different opinion if you demo a prototype WITH art. With art is more likely to "attract" people to your game... And keep them a bit fascinated in the cards (for example).

However I do understand the idea ... of waiting.

Cheers @Pelle!

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