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questccg
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I still thing The Game Crafter is a better choice!

And my reasons for saying this is because to ME, this is more than just a MINIS "device". Sure at first glance you might conclude that it's for minis... But if the "device" were in a world where minis are NOT part of the culture... It would be more about a question of "3D GAMES"!

The Game Crafter community is LARGE and with a TON of designers. I've seen some TGC contests and let me tell you their ideas are real cool ... They've done over a dozen contests over the years and I'm sure they might be interested in something NOVEL.

Like I said, it could be played on a normal surface or the ENHANCE 3D "device" would take the experience to a whole new level. Why I say this is because to DESIGN a game for the "device" WITHOUT having one of them ... is a bit "troubling". The "device" would make 3D playing more natural.

Anyhow that's my personal opinion... BGG is good too... But they won't "advertise" your contest. They may list it ... But people will have to find it on their own. In the case of TGC, they will put it up on Social Media (like Facebook, Twitter) and send a newsletter to all their designers, etc. If you don't have the marketing power... TGC does.

Enough said... I have spoken my peace!

kfourcell
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Reply to - About Star Wars!

This is an add on; an extension for existing games, all you need is your miniatures, some scenery and your imagination - that's it, no batteries, no internet, no rules and no tools; plug and play!!

kfourcell
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Reply to - I still thing The Game Crafter is a better choice!

My goal right now is to network and put together a group where we could focus where I need to go. My limited research into miniature games and the game mechanics lead me to believe that these existing game rules and mechanics could be applied to my device; so new games do not need to be made nor adopted. 2Ds board games has mechanics where players move up to leves and down to levels, climb, swim and fly; yet it all takes place on a flat two dimensional plane. In the beginning on one wanted to us miniature because it too away from the theater of the mind game aspect, I believe my idea, my device will enhance miniature game play or to the very lease create a new genre or style of play. If I focus on it I believe that this device would be a hit with dungeon crawls, creating a narrow multilevel gaming experience.

kfourcell
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Please ignore!

[*** Double Post ***]

questccg
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See the bigger picture...

kfourcell wrote:
This is an add on; an extension for existing games, all you need is your miniatures, some scenery and your imagination - that's it, no batteries, no internet, no rules and no tools; plug and play!!

See that's where I think you are WRONG. I see this as enabling a GENRE of games called "3D Board Games". Miniatures is the wrong market. Now I see what you are "preaching": an "extension/add-on".

That's why you don't understand what I am talking about. I am saying to design CUSTOM games for the "device". Creating a whole NEW market. Not for just "gamers" TRYING to figure out what to do with it.

My opinion: it won't work.

What you need is RULES, people to DESIGN games around the "device". And the "device" itself lends well to a 3D nature of the "device". Now I also get what you are trying to do with "finding gamers". You want the "gamers" to think-up their own games...

Again: it won't work.

Board Game players require RULES. They want a rulebook they can read in 5 to 10 minutes and be done with it and KNOW how to PLAY a game. They don't invent rules for games like CHILDREN do (up to a certain age). Your "device" is far more interesting from a DESIGN "challenge" POV. That's what you don't understand ... because you're A> not a gamer and B> not a designer.

The "use your imagination and play a game on it" is for 10 year olds. Kids won't buy it and neither will parents. SEE MY STRATEGY:

A> You ask REAL "Game Designers" to DESIGN "games" for the "device".

B> They can market and sell their games as "3D Enabled" games.

C> You can sell your "device" online and you can explain to people all the wonderful games "DESIGNED" for it.

See the difference??? I'm not proposing to people "use your imagination". I'm saying some of the most clever people in the world have hand crafted gaming experiences for all kinds of people, ages, backgrounds, etc. This is why YOU should BUY this "device"!

It's no longer some kids imagination at play. It's about DESIGNER crafting all the new and exciting "3D Board Games" that this "device" enables...

Do ya get what I mean?!

questccg
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And from a 3D perspective...

I don't think I can say any other "3D Game" besides 3D Chess (from Star Trek). That's the only EXISTING game that I know of that has a 3D surface to the game. And I "THINK" it's a REAL game... I'm not 100% sure... But I guess all you need to do is Google: "3d chess star trek rules" and you might find something.

Look I'm not telling you what to do... It's your "invention".

All I'm saying is IF your "PLAN" is to get a couple Gamers to "use their imagination" and try to play some "game(s)" ... You "device" is going to the crapper. But see the difference (not for 10 year olds) ... You enlist the help of a Game Design Community such as "The Game Crafter" (TGC) and they agree (always a point of contention... I don't know if they will agree...) well then you'll have a crew of games that can be made.

Even if some of them don't WIN (or are not finalists)... Some may still want to design ACTUAL games that could be purchased DIRECTLY from TGC. And that my friends will make TGC happy to make games for your "device"!

Like I said they currently only have a 10" x 10" board (largest board). But still it's a good start...

IDK what do you think???

A> Is it better for some unknown people to use their imagination to play god knows what...?

OR

B> Is it more reasonable to have a community of people who make games use their imagination and design 3D games?

It's your "device" ... I'm just trying to show you that there might be ways that are more "clever" in HOW to use this "device". And believe me, there are much more creative Game Designers on TGC. They've got some cool people who design cool things.

But as usual take my advice with a "grain of salt"... Cheers!

questccg
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If possible...

The turning mechanism should be able to "lock" at position in a clock. In terms of "alignment" ... Free-flowing makes it difficult to align two levels. Like say one at 12:00 and one at 9:00 (a quarter from each other). Precise timing with a "device" like this could be very useful. And would definitely allow designers more options if there were ways to "time" the levels.

Like every 2nd turn (12:00 and 6:00), every 4th turn (12:00, 3:00, 6:00 and 9:00), etc.

But the device itself should stop at every 12th position (like a clock). Like a "clicking" from one position to the next.

Just a recommendation. This would greatly enhance the "device" IMHO.

kfourcell
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Reply to - See the bigger picture...

questccg:
First thing, thank you for taking the time to converse with me; that is why I'm here, for the advice of those who have the experience; I'm not afraid to admit that I'm ignorant, this is why we seek knowledge.
With that said I believe were are both stumbling about the dark here. I'm still in the development stage here and I'm trying to understand where I'm going; I know where I want to go, but I don't know how to get there, where there is, or have a mode of transport. There are many other factors that I need to figure out and the best way I know how to figure it out is connecting with and meeting with individuals who have already been on that journey - I'm not asking anyone, or at least not yet, to accompany me on my journey; but to simply advise and help me prepare.
I know, again, there are many factors to consider; moreover, I know many others have been down this road and it seems to you that it is redundant that I choose to take a path so many other taken and have gotten lost or hurt; but please understand that though I'm ignorant of the path that I'm take, I'm not stupid - I know the risk, moreover, I know the consequences; which is why I'm here.

questccg
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Here's the thing you need to understand

Since you are not a "Board Gamer" (per your own admission), you fail to understand that the MOST important thing in "Board Gaming" are proper RULES. Adults don't play like children who can use a Corrugated Box and do all kinds of stuff with their own "imagination". ADULTS want a rulebook and hopefully the rules are sufficiently "interesting" they want to TRY the game.

Your "idea" of finding some "Board Gamers" and bringing your "device" to see what they can "imagine" is... like I already said: a CRAPPER IDEA. You are going to be ridiculed because you have NO REAL GAMES made for your "device".

Wargames and Miniatures are the WORST type of games to use your "device" with... WHY? Because Wargames and Miniatures have SO MANY RULES... It takes a real "special" type of gamer to sit down and understand ALL the rules. YOUR "device" won't help making the GAME SIMPLER. Quite the contrary, since TODAY your strategy is "Bring it and see what gamers can come up with" will result in a total and complete failure to understand HOW you should be moving forwards with the "device".

You're a bit exacerbating the fact because we've ALREADY "given you the best possible advice" and yet you are still "unsure".

Both I and Let-Off have said "Do a Contest!"

I already told you that, to me, "The Game Crafter" (TGC) is the better alternative because the "Game Designers" would design GAMES (and not minis). Let-Off said if that doesn't work, you can try BGG (Board Game Geek)...

That's the BEST advice I (we) can possibly give you.

You want Baby Steps, we've given you them. If you think: "What should I do next???" Well you should VISIT http://www.thegamecrafter.com and go to the HELP page. Maybe search for "Contests" and see if there is anything on that matter. If NOT, use "Contact" to reach out to Support and fill out the form with your name, e-mail and question about "What are the steps for running a contest or having TGC host one for my 'device'..." And then explain BRIEFLY what your "device" does.

Submit and wait for an e-mail response. You'll see if they CAN or WANT to help you out.

I hope that helps you out. I don't understand why the UNCERTAINTY?!?!

Best of luck(!?) with your "device"... Try to move forwards and go to the places we suggested to look at... Start talking to people and get this thing "moving"! Otherwise you're never going to go anywhere with your "device"...

kfourcell
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Reply to - Here's the thing you need to understand.

My apologies for being so, exacerbating; really I don't mean to be and I promise you I will look into the contest, truely; it's just that I see something different than everyone else and I cannot describe it or explain it. Which is why I wanted to meet with and discuss it face to face, really I not trying to be a troll nor an ass hole. I just have a different vision. I do understand what you're saying and I'm going forward, I just need to feel that someone understands what I'm trying to convey.
I don't believe that this set, this device needs rules nor that it needs special games design for it; I've read through the rules for D&D and similar games, my device does change the rules or the style of play, all it does is add a new dimension. I walked through it with a few similar games and I don't see a problem - and yes I admit I'm not a gamer...
Thanks for your input.
I'll move forward.

kfourcell
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Reply to - If possible...

Sorry, I missed this response; The turning mechanism, each arm locks in place against the central post, and each individual arm can be unlocked, reposision and re-locked; this was a necessary design to adjust to different height requirement of scenery props and miniatures. once locked in place the design allows each of the arm to freely revolve 360' in either direction; moreover, each of the platforms at the end of each arm rotates 360'.

Jay103
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Let's see if I can summarize

Let's see if I can summarize Quest's (and others') thoughts..

Your device is a device, not a game. People are unlikely to buy a device by itself to try to enhance games they already have by making up their own rule modifications or similar.

If there's a war game with ground and flying units, your device in theory can show both heights, but in practice, without some sort of transparent board at the very least, you're not likely to take this existing game and use two separate boards to show the two planes. For one thing, you don't HAVE two boards, you have ONE board. So you'd have to make your own cardboard or something.

And then even if you HAD two boards, and you put the air units on the top one and the ground units on the bottom one, chances are pretty good that you need to be able to see the proximity of an airplane to the tank it's trying to hit with a missile, and you can't really because the air units are like 10 inches up and, let's see this airplane is 1 2 3 4 5 units from the left and.. like 8, no 9 units from the top, and so the tank is 4 from the left and 6 from the top, so that's, um, like (3, 2) units away from the tank, so...

If you get what I'm saying, it would make the game harder to play, not easier, because the original game was designed to have the airplane and the tank on the same board, where it's easy to see their relative positions, and the fact that the airplane is really "up" is BY DESIGN in the player's imagination and doesn't get in the way of anything.

So I would never use your invention for this.

What you NEED is a new game (or games) specifically designed to have multiple heights. Since you're not a game designer, you want to get someone else to design this. Since you presumably don't want to shell out a few thousand dollars on spec, a GameCrafter contest might be a great way to cheaply (a) get some draft game ideas going, and (b) spread the word.

Imagine a future where you sold your PVC thingy for $29, and 12 other designers had games on GameCrafter for $15-$50 that require it.

I think that's your best case scenario without designing your own game to use it. Otherwise it's a solution without a problem.

J

questccg
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And Jay is a D&D enthusiast also

Jay knows from experience, because his game "Heroes & Treasure" is designed to introduce younger players (5+ years of age) to get involved and even interested in D&D gaming.

But like H&T, the world is moving forward with things like "Fantasy World Creator" for your average consumer ... or "Dwarven Forge" for people with a lot of disposable income. Either way, all three (3) require a large playing surface such as a table and/or floor. There is no way those configurations are going to work on 12" x 12" boards. Sorry to disappoint you on that front.

Your device will be more "prohibitive" by not allowing those D&D gamers to play a full campaign with very different settings provided like something similar to a Game system (like "Fantasy World Creator"). Here's their website:

https://gamestartedizioni.com/fantasy-world-creator/

The other one which is even more expensive is "Dwarven Forge". Here's their LINK/URL:

https://dwarvenforge.com/

Anyways ... you should trust what we are saying. We are not trying to mess with you "device".

BTW I think you misunderstood what I was talking about a "locking" mechanism. What I meant was a way to have a CLOCK "click-in-place" so that I can go "1:00" is here and "5:00" is there and allow different "positions" relative to multiple layers. That would HELP "Game Designers" significantly because they know that those positions can be relative to each other.

Cheers!

Note #1: The clock could help in scenarios where games may want to simulate "hours" of a day like night-time and day-time... First 12 hours are DAY and NEXT 12 hours are NIGHT! (as an example)

Or every turn, a quarter position (meaning 4 turns per 12 hours).

kfourcell
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Reply to - questccg

As always, thanks for your reply, and no I know you all are not messing with me, nor my device. I came to you for advice and I appreciate everything you and the others have to offer. The problem isn't with you; any of you, the problem is in my inability to explain; which is why I truly believe I need to arrange a meetup with a small group of experience gamers so as to focus my thoughts into a more coherent beam.

evansmind244
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Patent Pending

Going back up to the Licensing snippet of this discussion, I would advise you to write up a Provisional Patent. Lots of info online to help you do that. Keep your Provisional Patent close at hand but don't actually submit it. Once submitted you only have 1 year to Patent your idea....
As you develop your idea, or look to license it to a Game Designer/publisher you will always State that you are Patent Pending. No one can find out for sure if you are, so by saying so you give yourself protection. If you do find someone or some company interested in your idea and they want to license it from you, then you would submit your Provisional at that time. That isn't to say you actually have something Patentable or that a patent would ever be pursued for your design....but it gives you perceived protection while you shop around for interested parties.
I'm not a Lawyer, nor have I looked at any intellectual property surrounding multi level boards but I do know how to protect idea's in a SMART CHEAP way. So take my 2 cents and invest it!!

evansmind244
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Idea 1

You know the Wood Labyrinth Tilt boards, where the ball rolls through a maze? A wood labyrinth tilt board using your 4 board multi level design. You could even have spring traps that shoot your ball back to the Top board if you make a wrong turn, just like a pinball arcade game. Lights, sounds etc.................I think I just solved the Riddle of the 3D board!!!

kfourcell
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Reply to - evansmind244

I would be an ass and a fool to disregard any advice freely given, thanks for the 2 cents any capital is appreciated. I will get right to work on that Provisional Patent.

kfourcell
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Reply to - idea 1

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... Oh, your serious; ah, maybe I'll look into it.

evansmind244
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Its not a Dungeon Crawler

It's not a dungeon crawler, but Yeah I think it would be awesome to have a 3D multi level Labyrinth...and that my friend would have a very large market to market that is already developed. More Toy than game...but its just one idea. You do a contest on TGC and I'll bet you get quite a few more excellent ideas.
Also remember that with idea's that are new, you have to educate your target audience. That is why established companies typically won't license new ideas. They don't want to develop a market (teach customers something new), they want to sell into an already developed market (put a new face on something old).
With that in mind you will definitely need to consider venturing this idea on your own, or partnering with a designer that can make a marketable 3D game. Then you will have to go through all the hassle of exposing that new idea to a market that won't immediately get your idea. That can be very difficult, and in fact sink a good idea. At the same time innovation must continue, and there must be those willing to venture!!! Good luck, and I wish I was as humble as you with feedback!!

questccg
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Licensing IP only (another way to make money)

evansmind244 wrote:
...They don't want to develop a market (teach customers something new), they want to sell into an already developed market (put a new face on something old)...

That reminds me of "Villainous" by Disney (circa 2018). Another game backing on IP that is like 20 years old (and sometimes even OLDER)!

Mosker
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Let them play. (Bill Watterson tribute)

You have almost 50 comments with better info on marketing, rules etc. Here's a vision (aka crack fantasy.)

The device. A few sturdy overlays with grids, concentric circles etc. that can be placed on the surfaces. A box of components: chess pieces, Othello, Go stones, checkers, dominoes, scrabble-like tiles.

Some laminated tablets and grease pencils for scoring, rules etc.

Bars. Coffee shops. Adult daycare centers. Laundromats. Get people away from phones and TV.

Better than coloring books for adults.

questccg
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They say a picture is worth 1,000 words! (lol)

Mosker
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evansmind244 wrote: You know

evansmind244 wrote:
You know the Wood Labyrinth Tilt boards, where the ball rolls through a maze? A wood labyrinth tilt board using your 4 board multi level design. You could even have spring traps that shoot your ball back to the Top board if you make a wrong turn, just like a pinball arcade game. Lights, sounds etc.................I think I just solved the Riddle of the 3D board!!!

kfourcell wrote:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... Oh, your serious; ah, maybe I'll look into it.

Velcro. Magnets. If you're tilting boards, provide accurate markings to show angle measurements. Supply components with known quantities (mass, coefficient of friction).

High school physics classes. They may even have cheap laser set ups to get accurate timing.

kfourcell
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Reply to - They say a picture is worth 1,000 words! (lol)

I agree; and thanks again for you candid reply, with that said, this is why I want to get a group of gamers together; which isn't easy for me, but I'll make the sacrifice. You see I'm unemployed and on disability what money I receive goes directly to rent and what money I had in the pass went to several failed attempts at patenting and putting together my Proof-of-concept design and injuries and illness sucked up most of my time and will power. But I'm back on track, I will put together a meetup and I will record gamers using my device and I plan to upload the content Youtube, Facebook, Instagram and other such places; moreover, I plan to use the meetup group to gather as much feedback as possible so I can move forward with an understand of where I'm going and how I'm going to get there.

kfourcell
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Reply to - evansmind244 wrote: You know

"Velcro. Magnets. If you're tilting boards..." With all do respect my device does not have "tilting boards" Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, nor would velcro or magnets work; angled measurements, mass, coefficient of friction? What, you dude, you're killing me me! My idea, no matter how simple can be complicated to understand - BUT DUDE, NOT THAT COMPLICATED!! Yet still, you do give something to think about, and for that; thank you.

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