# How many cards?

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PG-Developement
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I am making a card game called "Attack Sequence" where you fight your opponent with predetermined attack sequences. I wonder how many cards I need...

My current plan is 225 cards.

There are 180 army cards, 15 for each of the twelve armies.
There are 10 location cards, 10 leader cards, and 25 event cards.

You play through five days. You choose 3 armies, 1 leader per person. 1 single location is drawn. Then each day, you draw an event card, which are ordered by day(five cards per day, with Day Five events more drastic than Day One Cards).
You can play 5 cards per day, meaning that the most cards ever played in one game is 58(25 player one + 25 player two + 2 leaders + 1 location + 5 events). Is the game too short, or is there too many cards, or is it perfectly fine? I have nothing to compare it too, but I think it is okay for now.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. The planned expansions are: Cloak & Dagger, Royalty, Mythic, Machines of war, and Equipment.

Jay103
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Just as a manufacturing note,

Just as a manufacturing note, the typical "poker" deck is printed as a single sheet of 54 cards. Four decks contain 216 cards.

It's likely that a game with 225 cards costs a lot more to make than one with 216 cards, because you need to print a fifth sheet. Obviously confirm with your manufacturer, but it's definitely true at, for example, Print Ninja.

As for your game design, none of us can say whether your game is too short or too long, since not only haven't we played it, you haven't described it. I can make a guess that if there are five days, and you play five cards per day, you're not doing all that much, but I can't tell how complex the strategy is, what your hand size is, or anything else.

I'll further guess, though, that if you have "too much" here, it's just the armies. I don't know what it means to have "15 [cards] for each of the twelve armies", but that's a lot of armies. Are the distinct in some useful way? Because drawing 50 cards out of a 180 deck leaves a lot of cards guaranteed unused. I'd rethink (or try to justify here) why you have so many army cards.

let-off studios
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Not Too Much

Jay103 wrote:
As for your game design, none of us can say whether your game is too short or too long, since not only haven't we played it, you haven't described it. I can make a guess that if there are five days, and you play five cards per day, you're not doing all that much, but I can't tell how complex the strategy is, what your hand size is, or anything else.
I completely agree. Playtest with the bare minimum, and see what needs to be done after that.

I'd suggest crafting 6 armies, 4 leaders, 8 or so event cards, and 4 locations. This gives you several combinations of armies to playtest, along with a variety of your other variables to mix and mingle.

PG-Developement
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Thanks you guys..

For Jay103:
There are 2 of the Swordsman, Archer, Militia, Berserker, and Cavalry Armies. The rest of the armies there are one each of: Ranger and Spearman. Their 15 cards each are some combination of Attack, Deploy, Retreat, and Special Attack Cards.

On the first day, you prepare your 1st and 2nd Day sequences. On the 2nd day, prepare your 3rd day sequence. And so on. You may make one change to each sequence ONLY on the day it is to be used.

Jay103
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PG-Developement wrote:For

PG-Developement wrote:
For Jay103:
There are 2 of the Swordsman, Archer, Militia, Berserker, and Cavalry Armies. The rest of the armies there are one each of: Ranger and Spearman. Their 15 cards each are some combination of Attack, Deploy, Retreat, and Special Attack Cards.

On the first day, you prepare your 1st and 2nd Day sequences. On the 2nd day, prepare your 3rd day sequence. And so on. You may make one change to each sequence ONLY on the day it is to be used.

Shrug. It certainly sounds like it might be tactically complex. Or it might not be!

Just a quick note.. my main design strength is simplification, and I'll almost always suggest removing stuff from any design, and rarely adding :)

If you have 12 armies shuffled together, then there are 12 rangers, 12 spearmen, 24 swordsmen, etc. Then of all those 180 cards, I draw THREE? It sounds too random to me. I have very few options to choose from, and I could draw three similar Berserkers and then what do I do?

So again, without knowing what the game REALLY looks like, I think it sounds like either you have too many categories of combatant, or not enough cards in your hand. Or maybe both.

(oh, and I still don't know why there are 12 armies)

PG-Developement
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Okay...

I posted the army diagram on the original post...
Look at that and see what you think. Also you don't draw individual cards, you draw whole blank army boxes. There will be 12 boxes, and you pick 3

I could make it so that there is one of each army.. But then if that happens all you need is Rangers to win

EDIT: I updated the Diagram so it is easier to read

Jay103
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I suppose I'm just not

I suppose I'm just not getting it. I draw three armies (blindly?) and so six armies go unused, but I don't know what the difference is between Army A and Army B (and Army L). I guess some have attack-focused berserkers and some have special-attack-focused berserkers, etc.?

Do you have a (very preliminary) rule book written out? At the moment, you seem to be making assumptions that we understand the basics your game already, which I don't think we do unless there's another post somewhere here. A rule book would help tease out those assumptions, and it's an easy thing to get feedback on here.

PG-Developement
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Rule Book

This rule book has no images(yet)

**Beginning of rulebook text**

Components(Uncertain)

How to win: either destroy the enemies armies, or whoever at the end of Day 5 has more army hitpoints

At the beginning of the game, each player blindly selects three army boxes and a leader divider. You can change ONLY one army (still blindly) once they are selected. Put the leader divider across from the opponent and unbox your armies.
The setup should be like so:

(No image yet)

After that, take the chance cards and separate them by day. Set them up facedown on the side of the Battlefield.

At the beginning of Day one, choose a Location. Put this in the center of the battlefield. Prepare your attack sequence for Days 1 and 2. On Day 2, prepare Day 3's sequence and so on. Choose which armies to deploy by placing their army cards on your side. You may do this for free.

Creating your sequence: Choose cards from your (soon to be)deployed armies and put them facedown, in a pile, with a maximum of 5 cards, with the first card on top. On the turn on which they are to be played, you can change ONE card in your sequence.

First, choose an event card. Follow the instructions on it. On Day 5, choose 2 events.
The person who DID not choose the Location goes first on the FIRST day. On the SECOND day, it is the other person and so on. Play your cards in alternating order. When an army is damaged, place Damage Counters(uncertain whether to use counters or a scoreboard) on the army. If an army is boosted(by the location or the leader) then place Boost Counters(or use the scoreboard) on its card.

End of day:
All armies retreat free of cost, and heal 1 damage(or 2 if Healer Scott is your leader) overnight. Repeat.

**End of rulebook text**

Obviously this is very preliminary. Suggestions or clarification requests greatly appreciated.

Wesinator24
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Joined: 08/01/2018
Sounds like fun but...

You’ve lost me because it seems like you have quite a few unnecessary things in your game. I’m not sure what the purpose of locations is or why events need to be a thing. And where do your locations, events and armies go at the end of the day? To your hand? What is the size of your starting hand anyways? And how does combat work?

I sound like I’m being negative but I’m only saying something because I actually really like your game idea. I just think you need to put more thought into your rules above anything else and really make sure you clarify every single detail.

PG-Developement
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Events

I posted locations on the original post for you to look at.

Events change things, make certain cards unusable, or buff/damage cards. This is to add mix ups to the game, and increase replayability. They can also speed the game along. Some event examples are: Plague, where armies from each player takes 2 damage and doesn't heal for the next 2 days.

PG-Developement
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Locations

Honestly though I might remove locations... Because what Jay103 said is true, if I remove the locations it will only be 4 sheets of cards

apeloverage
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If all the cards are in one

If all the cards are in one deck, wouldn't it be very hard to properly shuffle?

Jay103
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apeloverage wrote:If all the

apeloverage wrote:
If all the cards are in one deck, wouldn't it be very hard to properly shuffle?

It sounds like the big deck is really 12 little decks of 15 cards.. It doesn't sound like they need to be shuffled.. you can use any of the 45 cards you have in your stack.

Still not sure why there are different armies. Maybe just to prevent bad randomness in what cards you get.

PG-Developement
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Different Armies have Different Abilities

The diagram in the OP shows the cards in each army, and the cards will have the stats on them. THere is no shuffling in this game of individual cards. You shuffle the boxes of each army and pick 3. This adds some luck and surprise, and forces you to try to outthink your opponent.

Jay103
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Oh, is "Rangers" an "army"?

Oh, is "Rangers" an "army"? Typically an army would be composed of multiple types of units, so the term is a bit confusing (to the point that I didn't realize this, even looking at that image, until just now).

(just fyi, in that first diagram, the "armies in attack sequence" node isn't adding anything to that graph. That diagram is really just a list of the components of each army type.

PG-Developement
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An army is composed of multiple units

An army is composed of multiple units, which is why you pick 3 separate armies, and if you get a duplicate, you can put it back with no cost. You can also trade only ONE if you don't like it after unboxing.

BTW, thanks you guys for all this critique! It has been really helpful with making clear some errors in the rulebook and overall game.

To clear up the confusion, I might change "army" to "unit" or "faction"

PG-Developement
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Components List

Full components list:

12 army/unit/faction blank boxes, with 15 cards each, for a total of 180 cards
25 event cards
10 locations (debatable)
25 damage counters(5 of each of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 damage)
1 Rulebook

questccg
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I may be a little bit late also...

But when I look at your "locations" diagram, I see "+? stat". Do you have an EASY way to "track" such a Bonus or Penalty???

See I had something SIMILAR (as an issue). My "abilities" were similar but the real issue was "tracking" them. Like HOW do I know card "X" has a "+?" bonus? I know you can say "refer to the 'location' card". Which may be a good solution in your case.

So each "location" imparts an ability.

My problem was that I had no such "card". The cards themselves had "abilities" and no way to "track" them. For example, if I had a "+2 Power" for a card, I had no way on the card/unit in question to SIGNAL that the card has a "+2 Power". (Sorry if this is a bit confusing)

But effectively there was no place on the card to say: "+2 Power".

That's why I went to "Decision Trees". Because A> they are visual and B> they allowed me to "track" the modifiers.

Here's a sample with a Decision Tree:

https://www.bgdf.com/forum/game-creation/design-theory/card-abilities-wh...

You can not only VISUALIZE the path but also SEE what "modifiers" have been chosen. You'd just see "RED" on the modifiers that has been enabled. The "decision" in this tree is do I choose "2 Power" or "1 Magic" modifier. And believe me, BOTH options are viable ... BECAUSE it depends on the nature of your OPPONENT. Sometimes more Magic is better other times less Power is better (for example).

https://www.bgdf.com/forum/game-creation/design-theory/card-abilities-wh...

Here is one which shows the Power option was selected and signifies that this card benefits from 1 Skill Modifier and 2 Power Modifiers. A "Black" modifier means that you get that "Modifier" FREE (no need to spend a "Control Point" on it...)

Anyhow I don't want to "hi-jack" your thread. I'm just explaining the challenges that I have had with my own "Bonuses/Penalties" system. I removed the images and only provided LINKs/URLs to the images for those curious... Less intrusive this way!

Just a quick comment

PG-Developement
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I have the damage counters

Damage/Boost Counters are my solution to tracking damage/boosts. Because I can. ALso since there are 75 damage counters, I plan to have 5 +1 damage counters, 3 +2 damage counters, and the same for +HP counters. Adds up to a total of 93 counters on a 108 counter sheet.

BTW the location diagram is WRONG, there are THREE plains cards, and only TWO forest cards(If locations are to be a thing at all)

PG-Developement
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Electronic Version

I am currently creating a (very simple) version of Attack Sequence online. If it works, I will send you guys the links.

questccg
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That makes 100% sense!

PG-Developement wrote:
Damage/Boost Counters are my solution to tracking damage/boosts.

Ah okay... So you have counters. Yeah that would greatly increase the way to "understand" which cards "benefit" from "Damage/Boost"! I'm very limited by "the cards themselves" ... Although your approach is pretty reasonable TBH! But in my case I need something "simple" ... because the cards are in a GRID and some cards affected cards in the same row or column.

Needless to say, that the abilities were COOL. But much too complicated for the "core" of my game. Now you get maybe a "2 Power" Modifier and a "1 Skill" Modifier for 2 Control Points. That's very reasonable and beneficial enough that it IMPACTS scoring rather prominently.

Note #1: I NEEDED a way to "localize" and focus the abilities to the card in question... NOT other cards in play. That was the crux of my problem! See if a card could be a "2 Power" modifier for ANOTHER card, that card would need a way to "track" the modifier... And like you said "counters" could be a GOOD way of doing this... I chose to go in a different direction (with the Decision Trees).

It also would be TOO MUCH "tracking". Like if a card is affected by MULTIPLE cards in play... You'd have "X Counters". Then if one of the cards affecting the other one is conquered, you would have "X-1 Counters".

A bit messy for my game...

Note #2: How it works in my game, is that when a card is played that has "Control Points" (1 or more), the player can allocated "X" (the amount of Control Points earned by the card in question) Modifiers.

So if (for example) my card is a "Bard" and has "2 CPs", I can choose to spend those 2 CPs on any cards in play (my own). So it can be "2 CPs" to 1 card, or 1 CP to 2 cards (those are the options). More CPs allow for more combinations and can be distributed among more cards (if desired).

Note #3: And since I will be using "UV Coating" you can DIRECTLY write on the cards themselves with the included Dry Erase Marker. Just so that people who don't want to buy sleeves can still PLAY with the cards without any "extras". Nothing prevents someone from using card sleeves on the cards but ... it's an option not a requirement.

Fri
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A thought for reducing the number of cards.

If you wanted to try to reduce the number of cards, you could make two vanilla armies consisting of the different types of warriors and then have technology cards that modify the stats of certain warriors these armies. So instead of 12 different armies you would have 12 different technologies. For example flying horses could be a technology would grant Calvary unit extra range.

Just a thought feel free to disregard, use or improve upon.

questccg
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Regarding game "counters"

PG-Developement wrote:
...Also since there are 75 damage counters, I plan to have 5 +1 damage counters, 3 +2 damage counters, and the same for +HP counters. Adds up to a total of 93 counters on a 108 counter sheet.
...
25 event cards
10 locations (debatable)
25 damage counters (5 of each of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 damage)

Are there 93 or 25??? I'm a bit confused. Sorry my misunderstanding, I'm just following the thread and trying to figure out what the correct amount of "counters" you will have?!

Quote:
BTW the location diagram is WRONG, there are THREE plains cards, and only TWO forest cards(If locations are to be a thing at all)

What do you mean by this? The number next to "Plains" should be "*3" and the number next to "Forest" should be "*2". Is this correct?

PG-Developement
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There are a total of 41 counters

My mistake. I miscalculated. There are FORTY-ONE counters.
And yes, there are THREE plains and TWO forests.

PG-Developement
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Electronic Version

I am making a prototype online version of Attack Sequence.

Here's a link to a project I made for class before on the same platform.
https://studio.code.org/projects/applab/1VzlwmzK16Iunz1ql9Hn8U5Ti23rEBEE...

PG-Developement
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Fri GREAT IDEA!!!!!!

So I could have a tree thing, with say 3 base armies:

Swordsman
becomes
Cavalry
Berserker
Archer
becomes
Rangers
Militia
becomes
Spearman

AWESOME IDEA Fri! Thanks!

questccg
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### Class Specialization

I took the "liberty" to come up with some alternatives to your classes. Please feel free to review and let me know what you think!

• Swordsmen can become "Militia" or "Berserkers"

• Spearmen can become "Archers" or "Rangers"

• Knights can become "Cavalry" or "Gryphon Riders"

I know I had to "invent" some classes ... Just an idea.

Feel free to ignore, if it doesn't "fit" your design. Just LIKED the idea of specialization from one class to another!

questccg
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Here's what I got (playing around a bit too!)

You can CLICK on it to open it in another window (and obviously ZOOM in too!)

Enjoy!

PG-Developement
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Thanks man

That’s cool... I’m working out how to include that... Maybe I could keep the current structure I have right now, but delete berserkers and rangers entirely, and have the upgrades in an expansion or something. Because I don’t know how it would fit into the 15 card army decks.

BTW, what did you use to make your diagram? I use simplemind.

PG-Developement
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Just an FYI

I’m still a college student! Just a heads up in case you didn’t know

PG-Developement
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PG

Me and my 2 friends are in college and we have been had interests in game design, both video and board, since little kids