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Help! Someone wants to sell my game

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Juzek
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I am very proud to have a game I designed be selected to be exhibited by my local art museum. Their gift shop would like to sell copies of it. It is called window pains and is currently available on TGC for $10.

I don't know the first thing about exhibiting or business or publication or "consignment" means or if this even counts as publication.

It costs 6.62 to print one copy and it gets cheaper the larger order I make. I don't want to turn anyone away by having a too expensive game, but my wife tells me to value myself and my game and turn a profit.

Do I tell the museum to buy it off TGC? Should I offer a reduced price as wholesale? Should I invest in a print run and keep my own stock? What should i do at the exhibit beyond just demoing the game?

Thanks for any input and advice you all give me.

Juzek
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Jay103
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You should consider a bulk

You should consider a bulk order from TGC.. It looks like you could order, say, 20 copies, which might be a good number. More if you don't mind holding onto extra copies in a closet or something :). If you can easily drop the boxes off in person, so much the better.

If you can get it for, say $5/copy, The gift shop should probably have it for $19.95.

For consignment, that means you own the games but they're sitting in their shop, and they keep 30% (or whatever %.. shouldn't be more than 50%, especially if you're demoing in person for free) from each sale, and then pay you later.

"normal" publication would be more along the lines of you selling to them for 50% off and they pay you up front, and they own the copies.

So you'd get $10 ($5 profit, minus shipping) for each sale that way, or maybe $14 ($9 profit, minus shipping) in the consignment scenario (if they sell).

As for the exhibit, I have no idea :)

Good luck!

Jay103
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Hmm, having looked at the

Hmm, having looked at the game, I'm not sure it would support a $19 price point (it's of course $10 on TGC). But at the same time, I don't see how you can sell it for $10 at a museum that would pay you $7 at best, when it costs $6 to make and you still have to ship it from place to place.

Unless you don't expect any profit and just want the exposure, in which case $10 with a 30% consignment deal is more-or-less break even, though you'll be left with some boxes in a closet.

questccg
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My suggestions are

Buy like @Jay103 suggested 20 copies at LESS than $6.62 have them shipped to you, price it at $20 as MSRP. The store pays $10 (Wholesale). You make like $4.38+ (where + is the amount of discount for 20 copies). Deliver 5 copies of the game to the gift shop.

Don't forget consumers need to PAY shipping. So it's $10 + Shipping. So it's like $16 ... If they Find and Buy the game online. PLUS they have to wait a couple weeks before the game is MADE... While at the gift shop you get the game RIGHT-AWAY. (Another advantage)

Instant Gratification can be a big deal. Waiting for a game to come in the mail when you can BUY it NOW and play it right away is probably worth the $4.00 extra in pricing. Plus it's selling at a "store" (gift shop).

Start small... And see how it does. 20 copies is relative small. BTW what is the COST per unit for 20 copies??? (Out of curiosity)

Note #1: Why this is GOOD? Because usually Museums focus on art and paintings. A game that kids can PLAY (with an artsy feel like Window Pains) could be a good seller. Demo the heck out of it ... And hopefully you get people who like it.

Juzek
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That is a good point about

That is a good point about the shipping. I could price it slightly higher than $10 and give buyers essentially the same deal.

The price per unit for 20 is $6.26 or $125 total
The price per unit for 30 is $6.02 or $180 total

some of the pricing is annoying though. I have 17 cards, meaning one sheet costing $1.66, and I have 4 tiny shards, but they get printed on an entire extra sheet and laser cut for $1.86. The shards give the players their secret objective, but they cost more than the entire rest of the cards.

I could include an 18th card for free that players could cut out their own objectives (don't like this idea because it feels unfinished) but it would reduce the cost for one copy to $4.75

questccg
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Some additional "thoughts"

Juzek wrote:
That is a good point about the shipping. I could price it slightly higher than $10 and give buyers essentially the same deal.

That's very smart and fair. This way nobody feel like they overpaid. Good one!

Juzek wrote:
The price per unit for 20 is $6.26 or $125 total
The price per unit for 30 is $6.02 or $180 total

Just remember to ADD the cost of shipping to your home. That will give you a more accurate COST than just what you paid for each unit.

Juzek wrote:
some of the pricing is annoying though. I have 17 cards, meaning one sheet costing $1.66, and I have 4 tiny shards, but they get printed on an entire extra sheet and laser cut for $1.86. The shards give the players their secret objective, but they cost more than the entire rest of the cards.

I have an IDEA for you: ADD ONE (1) "EXTRA" Poker Card which can be cut into 6 small shards (as a preliminary step - before you play the game the very first time). Make 6 so that you can VARY the secret objective.

That will SAVE you $1.86 and since you have 17 Poker cards +1 = 18 cards per SHEET it would be FREE!!!

Juzek wrote:
I could include an 18th card for free that players could cut out their own objectives (don't like this idea because it feels unfinished) but it would reduce the cost for one copy to $4.75

Exactly what I was thinking. Nothing wrong with cutting 6 shards on one extra Poker Card! IMHO.

Jay103
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(1) cutting up a card is a

(1) Cutting up a card is a bad thing. It just is.

(2) I agree you're getting ripped off on the shards, so maybe either (a) don't make them so tiny or (b) come up with more secret objectives, or (c) put them on cards (but if a sheet of cards is 18 cards, that wouldn't help much). But you could have two separate decks of 18 (with different backs) for LESS price than you have right now... If you can come up with more objectives.

(3) To sell this, you really want to increase the amount of "stuff" in some way anyway, because (no offense), but if you did sell at $19.95 and the customer got home and there were 17 playing cards and 4 little pieces of cardboard, plus a rulesheet, they might be upset.

(4) in a museum context, you could probably sell for a weirder price, like $14, without causing yourself any problems.

questccg
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Hmm... Not sure about that!?

About point #4 (museum context) ... Have you been to a museum GIFT SHOP? It's always EXPENSIVE... Nothing is free in those places. I still think he should stick with the $19.95 price. How many GAMES are going to be SOLD in a museum?! Probably none. If he gets his IN ... normal to have a higher price point.

About point #3 (stuff) ... A game is a game. Just because there are less components or the game is very clever doesn't mean that people are not buying a completed game. It's not about content, it's about FUN and cleverness in this case.

Lastly about point #1 (cutting) ... I personally would not have any problem doing this so long that the card has "cut-lines". But I get it, in the end you land up with 6 square shards. I don't see any trauma with this IMHO. But that's my take on it. But with dashed lines and cutting instructions, I think this is a valid option.

Another point this is an ARTSY venue. They look for things that belong with the rest of their "museum" products. If they saw this game and decided that they want to sell it. $20 price point from a "GIFT SHOP" is like $5 in a normal game store. Even prints are expensive... If you go to a museum Gift Shop everything is OVERPRICED IMHO. So business as usual in my book at $19.95.

Jay103
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Well, I was the one who said

Well, I was the one who said $20 :). But I think a game that's literally 17 cards and 4 small cardboard squares might have a problem with a 2x markup OVER the TGC price.. even in a museum gift shop. Nobody would consider the shipping issue, so it looks like, well, a 2x markup.

Two problems with cutting. One, they're secret items, so if you miscut at all, you just blew the secrecy. And two, it just feels cheap to me, outside of something in the Cheapass Games sort of range. I guess this all is sold in a single tuck box, so maybe it's okay, but at the same time the only actual issue is that TGC (specifically) charges a lot for a small component count like this. If this were, say, made by a factory 1000 units at a time, you'd be paying like $0.15 for those four chits, not $2.00.

questccg
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Ok you won me over!

Yeah ... Use the square punch-out... But instead of 4 shards, make 6 the size of a standard card. I've bought these before. 6 to one card. Like @Jason says: "It will look much more professional than having to cut a Poker Card."

As far as pricing goes, all he needs to do is UP the price on TGC to $14.99. With shipping it's over the MSRP for his "Gift Shop"! Maybe even less expensive when you factor in shipping... Plus you have to WAIT too and create an account on TGC...

So maybe it seems a bit pricey-er ... $14.99 + Shipping vs. $19.95 only.

Is this more reasonable???

evansmind244
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Do you want to make money?

Juzek, I have a few questions for you and the future of your game.

-Are you wanting to self publish this game and make money?
-Are you motivated to get your game into more Gift shops, game shops etc?
-Is this a business you would like to grow?
-Do you have money to invest in this game? Do you have a business plan?

I really like your game. Wonderful idea!!

Jay103
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Yeah, unless you've been

Yeah, unless you've been selling a bunch on TGC, I think I agree with QuestCCG that you should up the price there so it doesn't look like you're overcharging in person.

I think if you're demoing live, you have a good shot at a sale at any price under $20, as a sort of impulse buy. I have a theory that, in person, people will use $20 and $40 as cut-off numbers, since "less than a single $20 bill" is a good metric.

Juzek
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Response to your questions

Quote:
-Are you wanting to self publish this game and make money?

If those two things can happen at the same time, sure! Although I am fairly intimidated by the idea of owning my own business, so I think it would be easy for me to give up some profits to a publisher.

Quote:
-Are you motivated to get your game into more Gift shops, game shops etc?

Yes, there are a couple of game stores I frequent that I am looking into selling at.

Quote:
-Is this a business you would like to grow?

yes, I think I am going to register an LLC either this year or next.

Quote:
-Do you have money to invest in this game? Do you have a business plan?

I have some money, but not a ton right now. and I do not have a business plan.

Quote:
I really like your game. Wonderful idea!!

Thanks! It just happens to be the first one I put a lot of time into. I do have a bunch of other ideas, and I need to pick some to focus on.

evansmind244
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Publisher

Juzek, I've sent you a PM.

-I asked these questions to learn more about your motivation with your designs. I see you also do computer games.
-Can you send me a link to the rules for Window Pains?
-Did you enter a contest with Akron art museum? What was the nature of the contest, how did you come across it etc? How was your game selected?
-As long as you are motivated to grow a business, develop a following for your games etc... I'd say you should manufacture 500 or 1000 units from China. Based on my experience with The Game Crafter vs China your game would likely cost about $1.32 per unit to manufacture in China. I'm guessing but Shipping would be less than 1k for sure. So landed cost would be in the realm of $2,320 or $2.32 per unit. Which puts your game at $11.60 retail.
-If you already have a retailer wanting your game, that's a good sign that you can find more. Storage at Quarter Master logistics is only $15 per month per pallet. No idea if you would be over a pallet for 1000 units but I doubt it.
-Anyway point is that for under 3k you have a real business plan, and the rest is in your motivation to sell Window Pains.
-Is the artist your wife? Do you have any other costs?
-I would definitely be interested in talking a lot more about some kind of partnership if you feel that would be your way forward. I could help with finance, manufacturing, web design, marketing etc...

Jay103
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The game would fit in a

The game would fit in a single deck box, so 1000 units is probably one or two cartons that you'd airmail, rather than anything that would be palletized.

(would be a good candidate for PrintNinja, I suspect, and the secret objectives could be regular cards with a different back, all on the same sheet.. could probably just get two decks per sheet.).

Jay103
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The game would fit in a

The game would fit in a single deck box, so 1000 units is probably one or two cartons that you'd airmail, rather than anything that would be palletized.

(would be a good candidate for PrintNinja, I suspect, and the secret objectives could be regular cards with a different back, all on the same sheet.. could probably just get two decks per sheet.. i just ran it quickly and got $2000 + shipping for 1000 copies, or $1500 for 500, which may be more than you want :) )

questccg
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How the heck did we go from...

20 games ordered from TGC to 1,000+ game from China???

Forget China. Just order a minimum amount of games from TGC (like 20 or so) and see if the games sell through. There's no need to invest thousands of dollars when you can take a risk of maybe $200.

You guys are being unrealistic when it is coming to SELL this small game.

Let's be realistic and FOCUS on SALES... Not going to China and Warehousing... I'm sure @Juzek just wants to make a few sales and make a little profit, not invest thousands of dollars when he can basically stay in the Black without any effort.

Geez wiz guys!

evansmind244
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Go Big or Go Home

I'm talking China because looking at @Juzek's website I see a potential partner. Of course I need to learn more about Juzek, and his future intentions etc.....but I'm sold on Window Pain's being an amazing addition to Bullfrog Games LLC, and a great additional game to sell beside Holiday Fever. Why not get in to Publishing? I've got my game to where it's at, why not help others do the same? Of course Juzek would need to have the desire to move in that direction....but I'm definitely not a TGC and keep it small and in the black type of guy!
Either you believe in yourself, and you want to make perennial game and sell it to the world, or you want to Kick Start your idea's and suck off that Tit forever. Kick Starter is a scam, and so is TGC for anything other than Prototypes. 1000 games? I can sell a 1000 games walking around my neighborhood and knocking on doors!!!
Juzek, you have 1 gift shop at an art museum wanting to sell your game, why not 50 gift shops? Why not 100? If you want someone to publish your game that is motivated, and has the capital to do it then let me know. At this moment I don't have a huge platform, and I've never published anyone's game....but if I set my mind to something you can rest assured it will get done, and get done right.
WHEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

questccg
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Crawl before you walk, walk before you run.

evansmind244 wrote:
I'm talking China because looking at @Juzek's website I see a potential partner. Of course I need to learn more about Juzek, and his future intentions etc...

Everyone I KNOW has ordered more than 500+ games is STUCK with them. @Jay103 has two (2) games ("core" + expansion) with over 500 games left over. Going to China is a bad move IMHO. Seeing if he can get some small traction and do repeat business is the better move for "everyone".

Quote:
...but I'm sold on Window Pain's being an amazing addition to Bullfrog Games LLC, and a great additional game to sell beside Holiday Fever. Why not get in to Publishing? I've got my game to where it's at, why not help others do the same?

It may be your desire to want to produce more, but the game hasn't yet proven itself to be a GOOD seller just yet. As with any venture, you would want to know the financials before co-venturing into any sort of formal business arrangement.

Has "Window Pains" (WP) sold on The Game Crafter (TGC) or not?! Those are the type of question you should be asking as a potential "publishing partner". And if he has sold some copies of WP, how many in a span of time??? Does the game have any reviews? Like Father Geek, Across the Board Games, Geekdad, etc.

Quote:
Of course Juzek would need to have the desire to move in that direction....but I'm definitely not a TGC and keep it small and in the black type of guy!

That's your ambition. Let @Juzek determine what is best for himself. I personally would NEVER risk making a production of over 500+ games. Too costly and I've been there before with "Quest AC". I had 10,000 booster made, 100,000 cards, and couldn't find any distributor who wanted to carry my product. I had a website and got SOME sale from it... But largely the entire project was a "write-off".

Quote:
1000 games? I can sell a 1000 games walking around my neighborhood and knocking on doors!!!

You still haven't proven that either yet. You might be rushing things a bit...

Quote:
Juzek, you have 1 gift shop at an art museum wanting to sell your game, why not 50 gift shops? Why not 100? If you want someone to publish your game that is motivated, and has the capital to do it then let me know...

I agree ... but let him start with his FIRST Gift Shop. See some sales and then he can TRY to branch out and reach other Museums. Remember there is a KEY factor here: in his local area he can DEMO the game. In other locations that will not be possible (at least not by himself).

But I think it's up to @Juzek to see what he can get as "traction". If he can sell through 20+ games in one location, he can move along to selling in others (maybe). But still all of this is hypothetical and conditional based on how he performs in this ONE (1) location.

Nothing proves a product like some basic sales. Tradewars have over 30+ sales on TGC. While not HIGH, it's still a reasonable amount for TGC. With all the GAMES and competition... Having SOME TGC sales speaks about the game itself. Yes the next logical step is to find a good VENUE for the game (and IMHO a Gift Shop is a great opportunity).

However I believe in gradual growth... Starting with something and moving forwards to see what opportunities lies as one person goes from one area of selling to another.

I don't think you offering to Publish his game is bad. It's just that he may not be at that point just yet.

Wishing the best to you both... Cheers!

Note #1: I think this is more of a Step-By-Step kind of opportunity.

First step: Get into the museum, order some TGC games and try to sell.

Second step: Make a YouTube Video about "How to play Window Pains".

Third step: See if you can sell at a 2nd Museum using the Video.

Fourth step: Rinse, repeat for a few Museums...

Fifth step: Either find a publishing partner or try another venue.

So while I agree Publishing is GOOD... I think there are steps that @Juzek may want to take on his own... To set-up the market a little and spread word about his game.

Note #2: About the VIDEO. Maybe you could ask another museum to setup a monitor or television to PLAY a continuous loop from a USB key or something similar which EXPLAINS "How to play WP". If you did this at other locations outside your local state, this MIGHT be a good way to DEMO/Present your game at other locations.

I'm definitely sure I've seen this BEFORE. It's nothing new to Museums. But it's got to do with STRONG "Branding" and saying that one (1) location is selling copies at a regular rate of purchase.

Something along those lines...

Note #3: With a good track of some sales at one Gift Shop ... OPENS up the chance to get a museum to put a screen and play a video (with audio too)... They ALREADY have this in museum in my neck of the woods. So I'm sure OTHERS have it too. The idea is you have to make a GOOD/GREAT video "explaining" how to play in less than 5 minutes. 2 minutes might be BEST.

The trouble is convincing another Museum to do the same. With some good publicity (from another museum) ... That should be VERY POSSIBLE.

Jay103
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evansmind244 wrote:

evansmind244 wrote:

Either you believe in yourself, and you want to make perennial game and sell it to the world, or you want to Kick Start your idea's and suck off that Tit forever. Kick Starter is a scam, and so is TGC for anything other than Prototypes. 1000 games? I can sell a 1000 games walking around my neighborhood and knocking on doors!!!

I couldn't have made my game without kickstarter.. too much outlay to go to China without that seed money.

Also, if you can sell games that well door-to-door, I'd love to hire you.. $10 commission per game sold.

questccg
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You kinda learn as you go!

Jay103 wrote:
evansmind244 wrote:
Either you believe in yourself, and you want to make perennial game and sell it to the world, or you want to Kick Start your idea's and suck off that Tit forever. Kick Starter is a scam, and so is TGC for anything other than Prototypes. 1000 games? I can sell a 1000 games walking around my neighborhood and knocking on doors!!!

I couldn't have made my game without kickstarter... too much outlay to go to China without that seed money.

Maybe you can afford it ONCE and then taking a loss, you realize that the grass isn't greener and then you have to think differently on your 2nd attempt... At least that is how I FEEL!

Jay103 wrote:
Also, if you can sell games that well door-to-door, I'd love to hire you.. $10 commission per game sold.

You're being a bit cheap... I would offer him $15 to $20 like a normal retailer. If your MSRP is $45 USD, $15 is a third (33.3%) or if you MSRP is $40 USD, $20 is half (50%). Somewhere in that range.

That's just my impression that $10 USD is very low commission rate. While nobody takes any RISK, it's time and effort. I'm sure @Evan doesn't have the time to do this considering he is often on a boat... His time is probably at a premium price ... Plus he has yet to prove that he CAN sell that well. And so I take everything with a "grain of salt"...

questccg
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Just remember Tesla

evansmind244 wrote:
...Kick Starter is a scam, and so is TGC for anything other than Prototypes. 1000 games? I can sell a 1000 games walking around my neighborhood and knocking on doors!!!

Firstly Kickstarter is not a SCAM. It's a way to fund projects that otherwise would not have enough money to complete them. Take for example, the FIRST Tesla. Each person deposited $1000 USD. There were 350,000 people who made the deposit! That's $350,000,000 USD!!!

That's what allowed Tesla to create their FIRST "All Electric" car. Think about that! Scam?! No, it's a venue to create products that could otherwise not be made... And Card and Board Games are in this category.

Secondly The Game Crafter (TGC) is a great service which is especially good for prototypes and reviewer copies. Without TGC you would have a harder time getting word out about your game. But I still firmly believe that as a platform, TGC is a good way of keeping your project in-check. At 1,000+ units, TGC pricing is very competitive too. Okay so it may not be as affordable as China, it is also simpler to manage...

No freight, no warehousing, no logistics to worry about, or extra fees that come with using all those services. Straight-up they provide a good service to make games within their framework (not custom). Things like boxes, vac-trays are all custom items... Which in the case of TGC are either for a specific format or unavailable.

So don't knock down this GREAT service. Your board on your website was created by TGC. Be thankful that they were around to make it for you!

Again another "service" had they not been around, would make the game industry much harder to become successful (because of all the prototyping many designers use when it comes to TGC).

Therefore there are REASONS why Kickstarter and The Game Crafter exist. Neither are SCAMS, just alternative way to "get things done". And sometimes like in the case of Tesla... A way to bring something to market that could have otherwise been "nearly" impossible!

Remember the Tesla example. It's the most successful campaign on KS ever.

Note #1: I can find some references on Google about Tesla and crowdfunding... But I can no longer find the original article about how Tesla got 350,000 people to invest $1,000 USD. Anyway I may be wrong, maybe it was purely a pre-order play... I pretty certain a few months ago I read a article all about how they Kickstarted the funding... But now can't find anything relating to this...

Oh well, if I'm wrong... My apologies.

Jay103
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questccg wrote:evansmind244

questccg wrote:
evansmind244 wrote:
...Kick Starter is a scam, and so is TGC for anything other than Prototypes. 1000 games? I can sell a 1000 games walking around my neighborhood and knocking on doors!!!

Firstly Kickstarter is not a SCAM. It's a way to fund projects that otherwise would not have enough money to complete them. Take for example, the FIRST Tesla. Each person deposited $1000 USD. There were 350,000 people who made the deposit! That's $350,000,000 USD!!!


That was the model 3, not the first one :) But still a good point.

And it wasn't on KS. they just offered it, and got something like 200k people in the first day or two. I signed up on day 3 :) (I've since cancelled the order, though)

questccg
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Are you certain that their FIRST car was not "crowdfunded"?

I seem to remember reading an article about 6 to 8 months ago about Tesla cars and they were saying that the batteries were designed and engineered for the car thanks to the investment of so many "backers". That had they not gotten the $200,000,000.00+ in R&D money, the Tesla cars would have never been so road-worthy because of the monies spent on designing the batteries for the car.

And that article gave me the impression that it was on "Kickstarter"?!

I don't know anymore... I read the article and remember some details but cannot find the website talking about this.

Well if it's the Tesla Model 3 ... Maybe that's the one. IDK. That car looks like a pretty decent sedan (although a bit pricer at $55,000 CAD). Like I said, I think I just Googled "Tesla Kickstarter" and found the article... Can't find it anymore.

Sorry... I might have confounded Model 3 with the earlier model... IDK.

Anyhow you get the idea: not SCAM-ing, just creativity, re-invention... IF you prefer! (LOL)

Jay103
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questccg wrote:I seem to

questccg wrote:
I seem to remember reading an article about 6 to 8 months ago about Tesla cars and they were saying that the batteries were designed and engineered for the car thanks to the investment of so many "backers". That had they not gotten the $200,000,000.00+ in R&D money, the Tesla cars would have never been so road-worthy because of the monies spent on designing the batteries for the car.

And that article gave me the impression that it was on "Kickstarter"?!

I don't know anymore... I read the article and remember some details but cannot find the website talking about this.

Well if it's the Tesla Model 3 ... Maybe that's the one. IDK. That car looks like a pretty decent sedan (although a bit pricer at $55,000 CAD). Like I said, I think I just Googled "Tesla Kickstarter" and found the article... Can't find it anymore.

Sorry... I might have confounded Model 3 with the earlier model... IDK.

Anyhow you get the idea: not SCAM-ing, just creativity, re-invention... IF you prefer! (LOL)


Was the model 3.. as I said, I was one of the 350,000..

Wasn't kickstarter. They just announced it and got $350m in interest-free loans.

evansmind244
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Ok Ok OK

I got a bit carried away, and of course you can't get away with any BS on here with Jay and Quest chiming in!!

-Tesla did what seemed to be a genius move creating the funding for the Model 3...but they didn't exactly follow through as promised. They advertised a 35K Tesla if you donated $1000 and it was years before anyone got their car, and the 35k price tag was NOT POSSIBLE!!! In fact the 35k price tag probably has something to do with why TESLA share prices fell in 1/2 this year. DEMAND FELL SHARPLY once the 350k customers (similar to KS backers)got what they wanted. The rest of the possible customers get a 55k Model 3 and have to wait several more years to get it. This is the out come of the KS business model, and it WONT WORK in the long run.
-My perspective on TESLA and KS is that although some campaigns are successful, well managed, and come through on the promised product....MOST are not successful, and as a business model can't be sustained with the flood of NOT GOOD products (board games included) and the NOT Sustainable customers that come to the market through KS are increasing because KS its self the Business. People who consistently run successful KS's do so by creating a following, and only release products when enough of the following agree to buy their product. They eventually move on to a sustainable business model or continue to suck off the Tit of KS and remain relativily small and dependent on KS. This is a sort of Chicken before the Egg...SMOKE and MIRRORS. There is no long term viability of a business run on KS. All the time, fee's, and shaky following you develop on KS is IMHO just smoke and mirrors.
-What TESLA did was mistake..........and its obvious NOW years after Tesla robbed Peter to pay Paul. Why did you cancel your order Jay?
-TGC is not a scam, but also not a viable business option. I LOVE TGC and they did help me, and they do run an amazing business but again its not possible to run a business, and on top of that it's another Tit to suck. You don't have to have SKIN in the GAME with TGC so you get to check the waters and see if people like your game....and IMHO you'll just keep checking the waters and never go anywhere with your idea. Got to run. More Later.

Jay103
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Well, they have the 35k model

Well, they have the 35k model now I think. Maybe. But you're right.. the first.. 100k units or more were all the more expensive loadout, around $55k. So the wait was much longer than they said (and of course they were already running late). AND because of that, people who were waiting for the $35k version (like me) lost out on the federal tax credit for buying a new electric car, which was I believe $7500. Which is why I cancelled the order.

Also I hated the dashboard.

TGC is a great way to (a) make professional looking prototypes, and (b) have a game for sale with no cash outlay of your own for manufacturing.

evansmind244
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Also

We can't forget that After Tesla's genius 350 million stunt at funding the model 3...they HAD to take on something like 3 Billion of JUNK DEBT from Goldman to keep the operation going. Which cost them a LOT of trust in their investors. Which is when I decided to sell my stock. I was invested in TESLA for a few years and did very well, but I don't follow them as closely now that I don't have any TESLA investments. I have huge hopes for Tesla in the future...but they are now dealing with some serious competition. Imagine if Elon Musk were to step down??? They are always on the very edge of failure.
Again this idea of KS is a lot different than seed money. With KS you are asking investors, who you don't know, and many who you do know (friends and family) to invest in your game before you've ever had a sale, and before you have a market for your game. They are trusting your play-testing and those play-testers ability to know what Fun is. They like your Art, or You, because you've been around on KS and had a few successful games etc...... but YOU the designer has NO SKIN IN THE GAME...especially if you are KSing through a Publisher.....now you're talking Seriously NO SKIN IN THE GAME. In exactly the same way your investors (backers) have no loyalty to your business model and future success they are invested specifically in a very shallow capacity (they want your game) which may never see the light of day.
The Publisher or Individual designer has an OUT always. They don't have to make it work, they just have to find enough shallow investors to gain enough money to make their idea a reality,but if they don't..............
I don't subscribe to the longevity or philosophy of the KS model. If right now I decided to KS or more appropriately tried to find SEED money, I could interest REAL investors, people with Platforms to sell board games, and because I have product I can sell that product to those investors. I will give you $10 for every game you sell for me...here's a promo code to market from your website. Each game ordered through your code is $10 in your pocket. I could also sell them a percentage of the business. If you can get me into Walmart I will sell you 30% of......
I can entice those investors by sending them a real copy of the game (this is where TGC is genius), I can also tell possible investors that I've had the game on pre-order for a week and already have 44 orders. Which is already 8.3% of total sales needed to be in the Green for the entire project and all of its cost. Those investors would know, that I have put my own Capital on the line for this dream, and so I have the most skin in the game to make sure my dream comes true.
If or rather when I sell all 1000 copies...even if I decide to give many away or sell them at a discount to the point that I need investors for the 2nd print run I will hopefully have created FAN's who talk about my game, who post about it on social media, who love my game. With moving a 1000 units and the value of a platform with a business model which has me as the President with the most skin in the game, I can get a traditional business loan from a bank to fund a larger print run #2. Now I don't need to sell my game to investors, I can leverage myself and my business model for a loan to help me succeed!! Why do even the greatest business men/women fail with some of their businesses? Because they had to let other people run their business and didn't have enough time to make that particular business work. Why do so many board games fail, because of publishers and KS.

I'm not saying that KS hasn't helped people realize their dream, and in some cases succeed with a traditional business model (which they would eventually need to adopt)...What I am trying to say is that KS becomes your business, it distracts you from running a successful business because your focus is on KS not building the foundation of a good business. It also keeps you in a perpetual mode of safety. If you're a tight rope walker who has never walked a rope without a net to catch you....are you really a tight rope walker? Pull the trigger, invest in yourself and your idea with your own capital (and if you don't have it find a way to get it without selling your soul to KS) and reap the rewards of walking a rope without a NET to catch your fall.

Jay103
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I think you're under-selling

I think you're under-selling Kickstarter.

KS is not just a store where you pre-pay. It's used for creative works specifically. Sure, here our creative works are board games, but that's the KS philosophy. You can't sell something you aren't creating yourself.

As a result, backers buy stuff there they wouldn't necessarily buy in a store. It's like getting an artisanal board game. Some backers back thousands of things.. certainly they wouldn't buy those in stores, and sometimes it's purely artistic and they see no reward.

Heck, my first game's KS had 19 pledges for no reward, for about $60 total. 18 excluding QuestCCG :). I didn't know any of those people. They just like to support people's creative ideas.

It's not seed money.. it's a contingent pre-order. That's a good idea. I have no idea how I'd find actual seed money somewhere even if I were making a profit (not including friends and family).

As for the business strategy of giving away 1000 units to create interest.. I don't really see that working. If I were an investor and you told me you discounted them to get a customer base and had no net profit, I'd want to know why the next 1000 would be different. Surely if 1000 could create enough buzz to generate new sales, 500 would've created buzz to sell most of the second 500... Creating a base is a good idea if (a) you can capture their contact info, and (b) you have a second thing to sell.

Juzek
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Well, good news everyone, I

Well, good news everyone, I am not deciding to sign up with a publisher, or kick-start anything at the moment. My current debate is more like, "should I print 20 or 30 games off TGC for the 2 or 3 local shops that may sell it on a consignment basis."

One of the shops got back to me that they take a 40% cut, which leaves my pricing set like:

Printing $6.62,
60% cut of $12.00 price = $7.00

That looks good enough for now.

Thank you for all the input everyone gave.

@evan I am flattered for your offer to publish for me, but I'm not ready to take that plunge yet.

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