Not positive I can still share this in the same way, but my Kickstarter is "almost live". In around 2 weeks, I think.
It looks like this preview thing still works on the site.. if anyone cares or wants to tell me how awful the page is, feel free:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/727578181/heroes-and-treasure-arena...
I haven't done the video yet, but it'll be in the same style as my previous two... which means I sit my youngest daughter down and let her talk. Probably needs a little more graphical content as well.
Comments
Pricing and shipping
This was a tough one to figure out costs and shipping. I've tried to keep the game suuuuper cheap to manufacture and send by freight, and I can sell it for $19, basically (okay, that's not keeping to the "5x" rule, but it's not too far off.. maybe 4x). But I can't include shipping at that price, of course.
Europe and Australia shipping is crazy-expensive as always.. costs more to ship 1 than to buy 1.
Happy to discuss pricing theory, as always :)
Premium Rewards
I haven't come up with a great "whale"-level premium reward, unfortunately. I don't think there will be room on the tiny (4x6" or so) box cover for me to include backers' images like I did for my earlier (11x12" box) games.
How about a "Premium, Elite and Special Supporter" Rewards
What this does is that on your WEBSITE for H&T:A, you will put up PHOTOS of the "Premium Supporters" ... Or do like a MOSAIC of thumbnails and everyone can HOVER over each one of them and then the picture will ZOOM-UP and display a larger photo (100 x 100)... You can have 100 or so...
And then have "Elite Supporters" like 25 or so... And those can be for a larger IMAGE (150 x 150).
And then "Special Supporters" like may 10... Those have an IMAGE (150 x 150) plus a "quote" concerning their thoughts on H&T games... These could be like "feedback" from Amazon (maybe have a STAR rating, IDK...)
You can price them AS YOU LIKE. I'd just figure I'd share with you some thoughts about HOW to get "better" backers ... Or encourage them to drop a few more bucks.
Cheers!
Just some other ideas...
PREMIUM backers pay $10 USD more and are allowed to send you a 100 x 100 image you can put into a MOSAIC of up to 100 backers.
(So that means about +$1,000 USD in funding. Not too much... But it can help...)
Next ELITE backers pay $20 USD more and are allowed to send you a 150 x 150 image and there would be 25 backers at this level.
(So that means about +$500 USD more in funding... Again not robbery ... Pretty reasonable).
And last your SPECIAL backers pay $25 USD more and are allowed to send you a 150 x 150 image and provide FEEDBACK concerning the H&T:A game (their thoughts in 250 characters). Here you could have 10 backers at this level.
(So that means about +$250 USD more in funding. Again something reasonable).
This means about $1,750 USD in additional funding ... And it will only require you to make some website additions. IDK is it worth the extra effort??? It's not like you would be robbing people. Just some extra visibility to the backers looking for some "praise" in backing your game.
Again just ideas, feel free to ignore if they don't work for you or you don't feel like they are sufficiently interesting.
Cheers!
Okay, time for brutally honest thoughts...
Okay, time for brutally honest thoughts -
1. Title - I assumed initially this was the second expansion for Heroes and Treasure. What about ...
Heroes & Treasure: The Card Game
?
2. The first paragraph is rather negative, and you knock doing math, but the players in your game will still need to do math to play it, right? Or are you including an abacus?
3. "combat card games" - you mean Collectable Card Games no? Also technically, this isn't a CCG as they usually include randomized components. This is more like an LCG (Fantasy Flight).
4. How many players can play? Heroes and Treasure was playable by my wife, daughter and myself. Can I do the same? Will someone be left out?
5. "Honestly" - don't say that - it suggests that other stuff you wrote wasn't completely honest ...
6. The Kickstarter page appears, for better or worse, to be focused on new players and not those who have heard about Heroes & Treasure before. I suggest this is an error - I would expect the majority of people who will find this site are your existing users/owners - in which case you can really build on the simplicity and ease of use of your previous game - which is essentially your BRAND. You make games that Adults and Children can play together that are satisfying for both to play. As you've focused the text on new players, your text is primarily - "it's like simple MTG ... here are MTG rules I've simplified ... ". It sounds a little apologetic to me, and I think devalues the previous work you've done.
7. Very unlikely to get "stuck" - eek, so you can get stuck, and, it is possible, but it's unlikely? It's very? How big is very? I wasn't aware I could get stuck and now I am aware that it is possible to get stuck .... eeek.
8. The big primary colours are nice. Have you done Colour-blind tests to check how it looks for colourblind adults and children?
9. "but I don't need to worry about" - you mean "but you don't need to worry about" ....
10. "someone who can digest the rule book" ... eek. There's a rule book! So, it's not that simplified?!
11. This is more of a personal quibble - the rules text. It reads like Magic the Gathering. But that's not that nice for children right? MTG takes precise text to the next level, but do you need to?
Example for what I mean: Crystal
"If not already holding a mana crystal, generates a new mana crystal at the start of your turn"
====> instead how about ====>
"At the start of your turn you get a new mana crystal if you don't already have one in your hand"
Example 2: Fireball
"Deal 1 image to each of opponents creatures"
====> instead how about ===>
"All of the other player's creatures take 1 damage each"
Again, I'm just focused on this working well for children.
Right, that'll probably do for now. :) As always, I'm brutal when I'm being honest, but I'd prefer honest feedback in my own work. No offence is meant.
ceethreepio wrote:Okay, time
1. Title - I assumed initially this was the second expansion for Heroes and Treasure. What about ...
Heroes & Treasure: The Card Game
I'll make the Card Game part clearer somehow..
2. The first paragraph is rather negative, and you knock doing math, but the players in your game will still need to do math to play it, right? Or are you including an abacus?
Agreed about the negative.. however, the math is very limited here, and I talk about it lower down.
Well, mine is neither. Single deck, no expansion (planned)
Two. Good point.
ooh, I usually try to avoid that myself, for those reasons.
I'll have to think about what that point means for my text.
Well, of course.. it's a card game. You can have nothing to do on the first turn with a low probability. Though actually I just fixed that with a new rule, so I should remove that paragraph completely.
Going to take that as facetious, but I'll maybe tone down my attempts to be completely up front with what's "complex".
Example for what I mean: Crystal
"If not already holding a mana crystal, generates a new mana crystal at the start of your turn"
====> instead how about ====>
"At the start of your turn you get a new mana crystal if you don't already have one in your hand"
Example 2: Fireball
"Deal 1 image to each of opponents creatures"
====> instead how about ===>
"All of the other player's creatures take 1 damage each"
Again, I'm just focused on this working well for children.
I was on the fence about that. I CAN just put that in the rule book. Which is a thing.
The good news is that I'm very good at receiving constructive criticism (and I got exactly what I asked for :)
Thanks!
questccg wrote:PREMIUM
(So that means about +$1,000 USD in funding. Not too much... But it can help...)
Next ELITE backers pay $20 USD more and are allowed to send you a 150 x 150 image and there would be 25 backers at this level.
(So that means about +$500 USD more in funding... Again not robbery ... Pretty reasonable).
And last your SPECIAL backers pay $25 USD more and are allowed to send you a 150 x 150 image and provide FEEDBACK concerning the H&T:A game (their thoughts in 250 characters). Here you could have 10 backers at this level.
(So that means about +$250 USD more in funding. Again something reasonable).
This means about $1,750 USD in additional funding ... And it will only require you to make some website additions. IDK is it worth the extra effort??? It's not like you would be robbing people. Just some extra visibility to the backers looking for some "praise" in backing your game.
Again just ideas, feel free to ignore if they don't work for you or you don't feel like they are sufficiently interesting.
Cheers!
Thanks.
Two basic problems with the suggestion.. one is that I have no idea how to do such a thing on a website in general, or my (godaddy) website in particular.
The second is that that's basically a premium reward with no reward. Nobody really cares about having their picture up on my website.. That would only be a "friends and family giving me extra money" award, which is not what I want to have -- I feel like it puts me out of the "professional game developer" category and into the "vanity project" category on Kickstarter. No offense ;)
The thing I came up with but haven't priced yet is "Have a custom card made for you". I'd do it through TGC, so the cards might not be a perfect match, but should be close enough to use if you're not playing for money :). I'd have to have two versions, probably.. people who have their own art already (from one of my previous KS campaigns), and people who need the art commissioned. That could be in the $95-195 range, probably.
I did a bunch of text
I did a bunch of text updates. Thanks for the feedback!
I'm additionally going to change the Crystal cards so that being a crystal is something defined in the rule book.. it's fundamental and shouldn't require text. There aren't varieties of crystals that do different things.
I'll look at the other card wordings as well, possibly removing "opponent" in favor of "other player".. I'm not changing Fireball to be passive though ;)
I was thinking about making one stretch goal be to upgrade the crystals from blue to octarine, but I'm worried that might get me in trouble somewhere down the road.
You'd be surprised... Maybe I can send KS a feature request!
Seriously, people pay to have their names listed in rulebooks or on websites... Having a Mosaic would be so freaken cool ... That maybe your game would get backers just to be a PART of it! It's like the Canadian guy who trades a Paperclick and landed up getting a House somewhere out West (Alberta or Winnipeg - I think). I've seen the concept where everyone sends $1.00 and a million people are squeezed into one Mosaic and the guy made a CLEAR $1M...
You'd be amazed of all the stuff that seems dumb ... but is SO COOL ... That people just participate. Like $1M dude... Nobody thought anyone would send a picture for $1.00. And over a million people did just that!
They were just ideas... Things that could be cool that haven't been done before (I think... at least not that I have seen ...) But I have seen websites with NAMES only with different reward levels too. That's a bit "standard" or "de-facto" ... Sometime rulebooks get premium backers listed...
Just trying to get some ideas out-there! No worries if they aren't for your game or Kickstarter! Cheers.
The mosaic would look pretty
The mosaic would look pretty lame with 7 pictures in it :)
Are you thinking of the million pixel thing from like.. 20-25 years ago? Some companies bought up blocks for advertisements, etc.
Ok I get your point...
Like I said, it was just an idea... Some are better, some are worst! (LOL)
Yeah the million pixel thing was that far BACK??? Not maybe like 10 years ago, no?! Yeah I know some blocks were used for advertisement too... Just re-hashing to see what could be exciting for the backers...
There was this one dude that could make a PHOTO of just pictures and shade them so that when you zoomed-out, you'd see not just a Mosaic but an ACTUAL photo!!!
Can't remember where the heck I saw this... But it was freaken awesome. Somewhere on the webz ... I bet. Can't remember... Oh well... Maybe it'll come back to me.
Anyhow ... Sorry for the "bad" ideas... Was just trying to see if anything would stick or not! (No worries)
Note #1: The page says 2005. So that means 15 years ago... Wow time goes by fast. That almost seems like YESTERDAY!
Note #2: Another 2005 event was the Red Paper Clip:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_red_paperclip
jay103 wrote: I'm
I'm additionally going to change the Crystal cards so that being a crystal is something defined in the rule book.. it's fundamental and shouldn't require text. There aren't varieties of crystals that do different things.
It definitely needs to go in the Rule book, since that should explain every rule.
But, in my opinion, if the crystal cards exist, the text should stay on the card. Having it on the card reduces cognitive load for your players - "What does that card do? I don't need to remember - I can just look at the card".
It took MTG a while to remove "Tap to Add 1 {WhiteMana/} to your mana pool" from their Land cards. And they still have it on any non-basic land. With H&T:Arena, you're starting at MTG Alpha here. Remove it in 3 expansions time :)
If you are removing the crystal cards, and there's simply a step in start up saying, "go and get a crystal if you don't already have one", then fine :D
Definitely not removing the
Definitely not removing the crystal cards!
I do think it may make sense to remove the text though, since crystals are so fundamental. Leaving ON the part about discarding them if you want.
I saw your reply about the art...
The only real issue that I have is having the SPELLS look "consistent" in their artistic form. Specifically I think that the HEAL spell's outline or contour is THICK. It looks a good 1 pixel thicker than the MAGIC BOLT spell. And then there is the FIREBALL spell which has "no outline". I get it's fire, but it could still have an outline or contour much like the "Magic Bolt" (a very thin outline).
To me this is a question of preserving the STYLE of all the spell cards.
But it's just my personal opinion... I prefer seeing consistent art with the same style. These three samples look different from one and another.
I know this is bugging you
I know this is bugging you :)
However, all those spell icons are the exact graphics used by Heroes & Treasure, so I like the consistency within the universe more than the consistency between cards.
And something like the "Earthquake" spell is likely to have a very different, non-iconic look to it.. I haven't commissioned that artwork yet. Waiting for the KS to succeed.
I D/L the image... But I can't improve on the JPG
No worries I understood. I D/L a copy of the JPG but it's too "low" quality to be able to show you the difference between the current version and one that might have been "corrected" a little bit.
But no worries. It's probably something I should have noticed with your two earlier games. I didn't, so that's my "bad".
I'm sorry if it bugs me. I think with Hi-Res art (300 dpi) it would be possible to "TRIM" the thickness of the HEAL spell's contour. But not on the low-res JPG. Like I said, I tried... Not enough pixels to work with.
So even if I showed you what it could look like... It's not going to look good at "low-resolution". Again it's just something that stood out for me.
Page updated to something
Page updated to something like the final version, if anyone feels like being critical :)
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/727578181/heroes-and-treasure-arena...
Just noticed one thing...
Why does it SAY Shipping $29 to Canada, etc. And in the Scroll is says $27?
Is that a mistake or something?! And isn't $29 to Canada EXPENSIVE? Like the shipping costs MORE than the game. If the game is $19 USD, you need to ADD another $29 USD for shipping... Wow!
A 1 lb package sent to Canada
A 1 lb package sent to Canada is about $20 by itself. I think this will be just over 1 lb with the packing materials, plus handling fees, plus VAT/customs. $29.
I'll fix the $27, thanks.
Yes, it's stupid, but I'm not really willing to take a literal loss on shipping. I was thinking MAYBE I could take a small loss by dropping Canada to like $24, but then it starts to make shipping prices pretty complicated.
I fixed that, added a $5
Dammit I think that was a mistake.. I *intended* to have it be $27, apparently.
Okay, everything fixed, and I put in a $5 discount for Canada where I'm definitely losing money, but so be it.
Thanks!
Well I must admit...
I'm intrigued by your game! But I usually donate to the project a cool $20 USD. But this time, I can get the game for that price... but only if I am willing to spend another $22 USD to ship the game.
Whose your warehouser? QML?? If so, it's high. Our game weights a lot and it gets the $14.00 USD anywhere in the USA. So if you are getting $9.00 USD anywhere in the USA, that's $5.00 less... Pretty good rate for the USA.
I'd look to see if you can get the shipping fees to Canada dropped to $14.00 USD.
If you TRY and negotiate ... but fail. I'll consider getting a copy. Of course this is all "Honor Rule" ... So you can tell me whatever you like... But maybe look into it. Yeah UK and EU ... That makes sense, it's across the freaken OCEAN! But Canada??? Maybe like $5 bucks more...?!
If I go to usps.gov and try
If I go to usps.gov and try to send something myself, it's a bit over $20. There's no way this is shipping for $14 to Canada, and I did not include subsidized shipping in the cost of the game.
The US price is actually like $10 and change I think (I don't know the final shipping weight, but I think just over a pound with all the packaging). So I'm subsidizing SLIGHTLY.
--
Between 9 oz and 32 oz from US to Canada: $20.75. (if I do it myself, paying for boxes and stuff)
QML will bulk ship up to Canada and then re-ship internally, but that doesn't really save a huge amount, and I can't guarantee what those savings would be.
The Game Crafter charges ...
$8.00 USD to ship from the USA to Canada in a small box which had 54 cards plus a die, black pouch bag and stickers... $8.00 USD. Granted it takes about 2 weeks to deliver the package. But who cares, I'd rather save some monies on the shipping and wait a few more days.
So MY guess is that you should be able to get $+5.00 USD so $13-14.00 USD to ship to Canada.
It's costing you ONLY $1.00 USD more than TGC and they do CRAZY volume. So that quote is BANG-ON. So I figure you should be able to get Canadian orders in with a $+5.00 USD increase over the US deliveries. So $14.00 USD to ship to Canada.
And remember WE PAY in CAD so you get 1.33x the cost... So $19 + 14 = $33 USD or $43.89 or $44 CAD. That's pretty expensive for JUST a card game. But I hear you... You're offering the best that they can give you!
When all is said and done, I'll drop $45 CAD ... like I said if you can get the price break.
Otherwise it's $19 + 22 = $41 USD x 1.33 = $54.53 CAD. So $55 CAD... I could buy a shit load of good games for $55.00 CAD... Heck maybe even Dominion...
Here's the Amazon.ca listing:
https://www.amazon.ca/Rio-Grande-Games-Dominion-Board/dp/B01LYLIS2U/
$55.97 CAD. A BUCK more and I can get "Dominion"... I'm just saying!
$45.00 CAD is more reasonable... I can get behind that amount. It's a modern card game ... and is unique (to the H&T Universe). So I can appreciate some of the art and feel good that I helped a fellow designer!
I don't get it...???
QML will bulk ship up to Canada and then re-ship internally, but that doesn't really save a huge amount, and I can't guarantee what those savings would be.
Why are you using USPS if you're shipping via QML??? I'm confused. You're working with a warehouser that ships internationally and you are quoting USPS gov rates?!
Why can't you send an e-mail with the specs (size and weight) and get quotes for different countries? To QML... not browsing USPS gov ... Their not giving you ANY BULK discount at all. It's piece-meal. One-at-a-time.
Granted IF you WERE shipping via USPS gov ... well then it would make sense. But you have a warehouse who ships with preferred rates and deals all around the world.
Get a real quote! Don't play around with USPS gov...!
Also ...
It costs me $20.15 CAD to send to Rodeo Drive in LA and package weighing 1 LBS + 6" x 8" x 0.25" stay-flat envelope ... With Tracking and $100 Insured in the event of a Loss! There are no custom fees.
So it's WEIRD that USPS gov is more expensive than the going Canadian rate.
Go figure!? Could be possible... I'm not disagreeing with you.
Just WOW...
Forgot you have a BOX???
Do you have a Tuck Box or a Small Pro Box?! That could account for the difference. I was just comparing the prices for my own project with Canada Post. And believe me, I don't have any FANCY warehouse, I will make and ship each order myself with bulk from ULINE.
I'll have to order cards in BULK (minimum 200) and then order enough for all the cards to be available to purchase. But I don't have BOXES... Just in three (3) decks with elastics to keep cards together during shipping.
So that's probably the difference. Plus you have Crystals too... All that needs a box... Sorry for the misquote!
Look I'm not busting your chops, I'm just saying you MIGHT be able to get a better deal when shipping to Canada. There is no VAT and no Customs for Card Games coming from China... I checked the Canada Post Customs Tool...
That means it's probably the SAME for you from the USA to Canada.
Anyhow I know for TradeWorlds we got $14.00 USD to the USA. We were CRAZY @SS STUPID and subsidized all but foreign addresses (outside EU, UK, Canada, USA, China, Australia). Don't do like we did... That ate up all of our monies... (Sad but true...)
I also will NOT be KS-ing "Monster Keep" (MK)
The reason is because TradeWorlds will not be fulfilled BEFORE "Christmas 2020" (that's what the timeline looks like today). It would upset everyone who backed the game if I did a 2nd Kickstarter before having the 1st one completed.
So I'm opting for DIRECT SALES via a webstore... I'll be sure to spread the word when the site is about to go LIVE... And I'll solicit the TradeWorlds Backers... But it will NOT be a KS. I'm tired of waiting for the game to be made and fulfilled. Like I said Target December 2020... I may want my MK site to be up and running around September 2020. So a couple of months AHEAD.
By the time this all happens, maybe there will be changes. IDK. These are EARLY projections and timelines. Nothing is set in stone at this point. Just some rough "estimates"... And having an itch for something different to be launched... via a webstore not crowdfunding. Well plenty of things can change between NOW and April 2020...
Just checked with Canada Post online
And my game (Monster Keep) will cost $13.93 USD to ship from Canada to the USA. So about $14.00 USD and add $1.00 for the stay-flat envelope, so $15.00 USD. That to me seems reasonable. If you are getting $10.00 USD from within the USA... a $+5.00 USD increase from Canada is pretty reasonable.
But I don't have a box... So that's why it's relatively inexpensive.
Hmm... I can picture this working because the website will sell in USD and my production will all be in USD too. So it could work nicely!
Ho-hum ... for now we need to wait and design a NEW prototype.
Also ...
With a BOX like your game, shipping from Canada to the USA is $20.15 CAD (or $15.24 USD). Add the envelope and it's like $16.00 USD.
So it's relatively affordable for me to send to you at $16.00 USD, how come you can't send to ME from the USA for about the same rate???
Definitely look into it with QML. I'm sure it's below $20.00 USD for shipping to Canada. $8.00 USD for "The Game Crafter"... Should be something in-between.
Regards.
It's really not :)
It's really not :)
Wow ... I'm surprised!
I think this is a FIRST: sending packages from Canada to the USA is CHEAPER than sending from the USA to Canada!
Wow...!!! That is like unprecedented. I really can't believe it!
So to conclude sending TO the USA from Canada (with a box) is about $16.00 USD.
Sending to Canada from the USA (with a box) is about $22.00 USD...
Am I right? Did I understand correctly?! Is this in fact the truth... OMG finally we can do business in Canada with our neighbors...! It was always the opposite way around: more expensive in Canada to send to the USA.
Total surprise!
Launching this tomorrow,
Launching this tomorrow, fingers crossed.
QuestCCG, I added new "social" stretch goals that popped into my head last night.. I think you'd appreciate them.
Some additional ideas
Best wishes and complete and total success!
Hmm... Yes while I agree that a "coloring book" for kids is a good idea, I would recommend instead of BOTH earning this... I have a suggestion:
This way if you get 100 drawings, you mail-out the PDF to 100 Backers!
Secondly:
This way it encourages EVERYONE to participate... And it costs you NOTHING but have your artist sign some art and e-mail it to the backers.
BTW feel free to ignore... But I thought this might be a BETTER way to go... Cheers (and good luck again!)
Paying for ratings (sort of)
Paying for ratings (sort of) seems like crossing a line to me. The stretch goal is bad enough :)
Launched.
Launched.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/727578181/heroes-and-treasure-arena
Fingers crossed.. I need a lot of backers.
I backed it...
I still need to figure out if I want a copy of the game for $22 extra... I have some time to make a decision. For now, I just wanted to add my support to your project and hope it gets funded.
You are correct in that you need a lot of backers. My guestimate was at about 425 to 450 Backers! Wow... That's a lot.
Just as a reference, "Monster Keep" will require 100 Pre-Orders and "Crystal Heroes" will require 200 Backers. I'm keeping my projects super LITE ... I don't want to have to engage in LARGE project. Smaller ones are okay too...
Best of success with your campaign! Cheers.
It's only about 300 backers,
It's only about 300 backers, maybe 275, depending on Europe/Canada and sales of the bundles. Remember I'm doing shipping included in the KS amount.
You can probably guess I have spreadsheets with this stuff in them :). I stripped the game down to be pretty cost-efficient, but if I have 300 backers, that's $3000 in shipping fees, just for US people.. probably $3500-4000 total. Add $1000 for freight from China and customs fees, and that's $5000 just on transport. $4000 (approx) for the manufacturer, and boom, $9000 target.
Ah I see...
So 300 x $20 = $6000 + 300 x $10 = $9000 USD your GOAL. Plus or minus a bit ... But I get the general direction. Seems realistic TBH. Hoping this one works out and you get sufficient Backers!
BTW is there a BGG page for this product??? It's in the H&T Universe ... but seems like it should have a page of it's own, no? I searched BGG and found no mention of the "Arena" game. Might be good to put up a page, no?
I put one up but it's
I put one up but it's awaiting manual approval. I should've done it two weeks ago.
(oh, and I'm using the KS as a general product advertisement platform, so I may sell a few copies of my first game that way.. already have a bundle pack ordered in the KS, and one pack ordered directly from my web page)
Check on BGG...
If they don't approve the page it's because something is "wrong"... They might want a LONGER "description" or something with the images, etc.
Usually it takes like 2 to 3 weeks to get approval. I would recommend taking a look in your BGG Inbox and see if there are any Admin-related messages.
If know this... Because it happened to me. I can't remember what the circumstances were (which game and when) ... But basically they wanted more "descriptive" text to flesh out what the game was all about...
Again not certain which game and when... But I know those were the reasons it was taking so long and I finally found the e-mail in my Inbox asking for more details...
So just check on it!
Note #1: I noticed your game (Arena) is in the Queue... But be sure to check your BGG mail. Like I said, sometimes the Admins want corrections or additional information. And now that the e-mail link is just an ICON, you can't tell if you HAVE an important e-mail unless you check it MANUALLY!