Skip to Content

where to place attack and play cost information on a card?

24 replies [Last post]
jedite1000
jedite1000's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/18/2017
lil flame.png
template2.png

So i have been working on a card template, and i have my main icons attack, hp and intellect. Right now im having trouble on where to place my other icons or information such as the attack cost and the play cost

basically the brain icon is intellect and depending on how many cards are on your field, the total intellect of your cards becomes action points so you can spend intellect to either attack or play other cards. the action points refresh every turn

but my question again is how can i add that information on the card, i dont want the card to be bloated with different icons and i dont really want too many text either, so the placement of the cost information is crucial

Jay103
Jay103's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/23/2018
Key information in the top

Key information in the top left corner, if people are holding cards in their hand. If the game is mostly about layout, then I'd say clear, bold print in either the top quarter, bottom quarter, or both.

Just take any deck of cards and hold a fan of 7 (or however many) in your hand, and you'll see that the top left corner is pretty much the only thing you can see easily. In particular, what a card costs is "key". Its general type (attack, defense, whatever) is probably also key, though maybe can be relayed through background color, border color, or similar, if not by an icon.

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Jay103 is correct...

Jay103 wrote:
Key information in the top left corner, if people are holding cards in their hand.

This could be COST, POWER, FACTION, STATS, etc. The idea is that the Top-Left corner contains the "most" or "significant" information. Especially when held "in-hand".

Jay103 wrote:
If the game is mostly about layout, then I'd say clear, bold print in either the top quarter, bottom quarter, or both.

The next most important area is the top of the card, middle of the card and the bottom of the card. Each space reserved for different information that can be read when the card is played. Top or middle for a CARD NAME or reference and bottom for some kind of ABILITY.

Other STATS can be in the LEFT or RIGHT-HAND side of the card. Usually on the LEFT-HAND side ... but you may have extra stats that can appear on the RIGHT-HAND side too...

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Something to consider

Here are sample "template" cards from "Monster Keep" (MK):

So the first thing you notice AT the VERY TOP LEFT corner, I have the "Attack-Type". So as Jay103 was saying, TOP LEFT is usually your most important information.

In my case this determines which Monster can attack which OTHER Monster according to a simple RPS-3: Melee -> Ranged -> Flying -> Melee.

Therefore, in my own way, the RPS-3 rules determine who can attack who... So even before there are any STATS, you need to figure out WHO will be attacking. Simple enough, no?!

Next I am opting for sliders and the Power & Style stats are on the SIDES of the card (Left = Power, Right = Style).

And then in the bottom area are "Abilities" and on the bottom-most are, I have the CARD NUMBER and a CARD CODE.


Now to compare with your card. I think the TOP-LEFT corner has a TYPE or FACTION association. Is this because the cards are categorized into different "classes" (like Pokemon for example)?!

And then you choose BOTTOM-LEFT for stats. Hmm... This is a bit "questionable". WHY? Because when you "Fan your hand" you won't see this information. My suggestion: Move it to the LEFT-MIDDLE and you will see them BETTER... So you look at CLASS (type or faction) and then check the middle or the stats.

If you want it MORE OBVIOUS, well then I would place the STATS just BELOW the CLASS (type or faction) and they'll probably be MORE visible to aid in choosing to play the RIGHT cards on your turn.

Cheers.

jedite1000
jedite1000's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/18/2017
yeah, the fire on the top

yeah, the fire on the top represents the trait of the card, so the trait is fire, in my game it is called pyromaniac. whenever you have a set number of cards with the same traits on the field they gain a bonus buff, if fires case, if one of the pyro cards successfully attacks a card and it loses hp then any card adjacent to the targeted card will lose 1 hp

some cards will have dual traits so one of my cards not invented yet will have a fire and death trait, that card will able to have the fire trait aswell as the death trait, that will add a lot of deck builds but also will need a lot of balancing

as before i was stuck with the cost of the cards so right now i have the play cost on top right and the attack cost bottom right

thats all i can come up with for now, until a better layout can be resolved

Jay103
Jay103's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/23/2018
jedite1000 wrote: as before i

jedite1000 wrote:

as before i was stuck with the cost of the cards so right now i have the play cost on top right and the attack cost bottom right

thats all i can come up with for now, until a better layout can be resolved


No room for costs on top left? Bottom right is the absolute hardest spot to see on a card in your hand.

Anything you might conceivably want to use to SORT the cards in your hand should probably be on the top left. In a regular deck of cards you have number and suit and you can see both very easily at all times.

Is there another way to get across the type? Is there a reason you only want one thing in each corner? You could easily put "3 / 2" in a red circle in the top left and boom, you have all three pieces of information there. You can duplicate the 3 and 2 elsewhere (maybe in the middle of the card) if you think people need a reminder of which is play cost and which is attack.

Bottom right is a terrible, terrible choice. Everyone will hate you and tear the cards up in frustration and then burn the pieces.

Jay103
Jay103's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/23/2018
Also, I highly recommended

Also, I highly recommended something like NANDeck. My card game KS didn't pan out, but I used it pretty easily to make production-quality cards. Certainly prototype-quality cards, at least. My graphic design skills are perhaps not production-quality themselves.

A friend of mine spent quite a lot of time in the M:tG card editor on a design.. His particular game tends to let you see the top line of the card better than average, so information on the top right makes some sense.

https://www.arcanegladiator.com/

You'll note that "type" is portrayed by the entire card border, including for multi-types.

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Not the End-of-the-world...

Jay103 wrote:
...Bottom right is a terrible, terrible choice. Everyone will hate you and tear the cards up in frustration and then burn the pieces.

While I can appreciate the willingness to HELP, that is NOT TRUE! Why??? Because Magic: the Gathering (Magic) has their stats on the BOTTOM RIGHT and nobody is "Crying Foul"! Power and Toughness can be found in the bottom right hand corner of the cards!

So it's not so DRAMATIC or end-of-the-world when placing stats in that corner... True it is the least used spot... But seriously nobody will burn their cards just because a stat is placed in that position (and I state as proof Magic)!

Jay103
Jay103's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/23/2018
True, except:1) MtG cards

True, except:

1) MtG cards have a ton of stuff on them. If you only have a few things, and all those things can fit in the top corner, scattering the information to three different corners makes no sense.

2) Attack and defense for MtG cards is most relevant after the cards are played. Somewhat beforehand, yes, but definitely afterward, when the card is down on the table and fully visible. In this game's situation, it's the card cost that's in the bottom right. I don't know the game, so maybe that's a cost only applicable from a layout, which would make it less of a problem, but still you can get all 3 things easily into a single corner.

3) I think MtG actually has a poor card design. I think when they started out it was a small thing (and in the early 90's, before there was much theoretical analysis of such things) and they didn't put that much thought into the ergonomics of the layout. Then they were stuck with it later. No reason to repeat that mistake.

Now I'm going to go burn one of my MtG cards just to prove the point..

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Funny, eh?

Jay103 wrote:
...Now I'm going to go burn one of my MtG cards just to prove the point...

It better be $0.50 Rare! (LOL) I watched Tolarian College Reviews yesterday and now for about $16.00+ USD you can buy ONE (1) Double Masters Booster. That's right: ONE Booster for $16.00+ USD! Now that is freaken expensive... WHY?! Well it's still like $0.05 a card (to make, it's only cardstock). And his point was exactly that: it's only 15 cards made of paper. Same cost to make when they are sold at $4.99 or $16.00+ per booster.

Anyways the whole point he wanted to make is: even if there are TWO (2) Rares per Booster Pack (and it's true, the format states 2 Rare cards per booster) ... most of them are going to be $0.50 Rares...!

So that's where this is coming from: better be a $0.50 Rare ... Cause we all know commons are worth pennies on a dollar. Cheers!

Jay103
Jay103's picture
Offline
Joined: 01/23/2018
I do have a Jester's Cap

I do have a Jester's Cap signed by Richard Garfield. Worth less than a normal Cap because it's "defaced", of course.

Smallish Intel event in 1995 I was part of had a MtG booster/draft tournament as part of it, and he came. That was the rare I got in a booster, so I had him sign it.

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
For reference!

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Fetch Lands = $299.99 USD

Jay103 wrote:
I do have a Jester's Cap signed by Richard Garfield. Worth less than a normal Cap because it's "defaced", of course.

Smallish Intel event in 1995 I was part of had a MtG booster/draft tournament as part of it, and he came. That was the rare I got in a booster, so I had him sign it.

https://millenniumgames.com/pre-order-secret-lair-ultimate-edition-for-o...

Remember FIVE (5) Fncking cards = $299.99 USD! That's $0.25 plus a box. These guys are turning into THIEVES. Seriously. Can you imagine that?!?!

No don't burn the "Jester's Cap" ... We all like Mr. Garfield... It's his successors that I truly question...?! (Mark Rosewater, I believe)!

Keep it... Find some $0.50-ish Rare... We all know they are in abundance. It's not like they are less common than $0.05 Common cards! Considering the amount of print-runs they make. I'm sure they make economies of scale too! (Hah)

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Something like this could be COOL!

  

As an example of what I was trying to say. I think @Jay103 has the SAME idea from his posts ... I think he too was suggesting to add more information to the TOP-LEFT Corner... Somewhere lower for the stats...

Just as a reference. The card on the RIGHT is a Gwent card... Again showing you a "similar" layout. These are just some examples. You can design your game according to the style that suits you. I'm just sharing some examples with you!

Note #1: I've just played around with the card... Nothing fantastic... My Graphic Design skills need "a lot of work"! But this is just an example of what can be "improved upon". Cheers!

jedite1000
jedite1000's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/18/2017
Yeah the cards wont have any

Yeah the cards wont have any special abilities, their abilities are in the form of how many cards with certain traits are on the field at same time

still pondering if i even need a play cost or attack cost, if i do remove them what will intelect be used for then?

or what do you think of a chrono guadge cost system and have the intelect the cost required to play the card. ill scrap the attack cost system

edit: ok this chrono guage is a pretty good system ive been testing it and it works well but i ran into a problem, being able to play cards until the guage reaches past 0 to the opponent's side, you can end up with lots of cards which means the opposing player will never really damage your life points. so dunno how to go around that, i feel attacking life even with cards on the field is kind of pointless since people will always go for your life

i need a new system for the players life points that is easy to inflict damage to but also easy to defend from it

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
You misunderstood

jedite1000 wrote:
Yeah the cards wont have any special abilities, their abilities are in the form of how many cards with certain traits are on the field at same time...

See those "certain traits" about how the cards perform when combined... That's the "Special Ability" you need to "describe" on the cards. You cannot simply assume that because Pyromaniacs have an "ability" that players are expected to "memorize" (or commit to memory) that "ability".

So in fact, I would argue that INDEED your cards DO HAVE an "ability", one that is related to the cards on the field itself.

You never want to NOT present a certain aspect of the game on the cards especially if it is such an important one...

Quote:
If Lil Flame successfully attacks an opponent, that opponent loses HP. In addition any other ADJACENT opponent to the target will also lose HP.

Sounds to me like a "Special Ability"... Again never commit to memorization, always specify "abilities" on the cards themselves...

My idea would be, in the TOP-LEFT corner is a Power + Faction. The Power is used for Combos, like if two (2) Lil Flame are next to each other and one attack, the opponent's ADJACENT cards would lose 2 HP each (1 + 1 = 2) or something like that...

Again just ideas to work with, expand on, etc. Feel free to use what you like and discard what you don't like.

Note #1: Going with the Pyromaniacs, if let's say a "Fire Lord" was next to Lil Flame and has a "3 Pyro", that means when Lil Flame attacks, ADJACENT cards lose 4 HP (1 + 3 = 4). Something COOL like that...

Note #2: I took the "brain"/intellect out and replaced it with a "coin" which can ONE of two possibilities:

1> The amount required to be payed when putting this card in play.

2> The amount acquired each time this card defeats an opponent.

So it's either a COST or a REWARD. Whatever works best...

jedite1000
jedite1000's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/18/2017
I guess having a coin reward

I guess having a coin reward could take out needing to attack players life points, just kill those cards to aquire gold and when you have a certain ammount you win.

as for the pyromaniac effect, the effect is with all pyro type cards, its so if u have 3 pyro active then each card will do the same pyro effect

I was planning to do a cheat card that you can check to see what the abilities will do when u stack certain cards together, little more inconvenient but this way i don't have to repeat the same text on all the fire cards

Though what do you think of the Chrono gauge system?

Edit: Hmm i just had an idea i dont think ive seen in a game before
Why dont we make the gold more valuable

So ill scrap the chrono gauge system and have the gold required to play cards

at the start of the game players get like 3 free gold coins, that is enough to play 3 1 cost cards or a 2 and a 1 cost or a 3 cost at the start of the game

So all the icons will stay where they are top left trait, atk hp and coin on the left side and a gold coin on top left for the card cost

So when you kill a card the value of the card is represented with a gold coin next to the hp and atk icon, so when you kill a card you add gold tokens to your bank.. ill call it bank for now. so you are free to spend gold to play more cards or you can save the gold to win the game, what i mean is once you say require 10 gold then you can hard bank them and turn it into a trophy card or something, and when you acquire 3 of these cards you win the game. There is a strategy for that, do you spend all of your gold to play lots of cards and hopefully control the board or will you slowly save up enough gold to win the game.

I guess another win condition is if a player runs out of cards in their deck, they lose.

There will be traits that will mill your opponent's deck so you can try and win that way too

larienna
larienna's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/28/2008
Here is an example for a deck

Here is an example for a deck building game that I like: Rune Age

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/972509/rune-age

Since the purchase cost is not used when the card is in your deck, it has been put at the bottom right of the card. Else, during the game the player will use the top left value which is attack strength in this case.

jedite1000
jedite1000's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/18/2017
So i should put the cost on

So i should put the cost on the bottom right?

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Something to consider

jedite1000 wrote:
So i should put the cost on the bottom right?

I think your original idea of putting the COST in the TOP-LEFT corner was more appropriate. And then maybe putting your "Class" or "Faction" in the TOP-RIGHT corner. So this way you can see the cost initially when fanning your hand and then when you have chosen a card you might want to play, you can have a closer look at the "Class"/"Faction"...

In this scenario, you are "focusing" on the TOP-MOST portion of the card to display the stats or information you require rather easily.

jedite1000
jedite1000's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/18/2017
ran into a few problems, i

ran into a few problems, i like how you get gold every time u kill an opponent but over the course of the game if a player is dominating that player will have lots of strong monsters and if he keeps killing my monsters then i wont able to keep up and my field will always be empty, i even have once per turn a player gains 1 free coin, and also if you have no coins you get free 3 coins on your next turn that way if you have no coins then you can always play monsters

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Also ...

jedite1000 wrote:
...if a player is dominating that player will have lots of strong monsters and if he keeps killing my monsters then i wont able to keep up and my field will always be empty...

There is the notion of "winning the game"?! If one player dominates another that's how the game is meant to unfold. Are you aiming for "stalemates"??? I think you should playtest this A LOT to determine how often does this really happen. If it happens in less than 1/3rd (33.3% or less) then it's not a problem. It's a Game Strategy: flood the opponent with a few STRONG monsters instead of having a bunch of weak ones.

Just something that MAY be of "value" to you:

Quote:
If a player attacks one monster and the opponent has less monsters than the attacker, all other monsters deal "direct damage" to the player.

Why is this important??? It moves the game along and can lead to a quicker victory. Again "Why does this matter?" Because it's a game, you win SOME and you lose SOME. You don't want the games to last FOREVER otherwise BOTH players will grow tired of playing somewhere after the 60 minute mark.

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
The worst thing that can happen...

Is that a GOOD game lasts TOO LONG and players lose interest in playing the game. This is a problem because the odds of getting that game back to their table for a "replay" ... is questionable?! TradeWorlds can take about 2 hours if played with "newbies" that have no experience with Deck Builders.

But if played with players familiar with Deck Building, it can take about 90 minutes... Still a bit on the LONGER side... But there is a LOT of "Action" and "Take-That" Space Battles to offset the duration of a game.

Meaning that players are in the thick of things for a good majority of the game. Even a "leader" can be caught up to with some smart playing (or just because of sub-optimal hands)... You don't always get the cards you need and vice-versa sometimes you have too many good cards.

So be sure to make a GOOD game ... But I would limit myself to a 60 minute game (for sure). Anything above needs to be REALLY, REALLY GOOD if people are expected to WANT to play again.

jedite1000
jedite1000's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/18/2017
yeah though i want people to

yeah though i want people to feel like they can catch up, if its one sided for long the opponent will just give up because there is no point and no way to catch up

jedite1000
jedite1000's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/18/2017
I have come up with a good

I have come up with a good solution, ok so instead of coins the cards have xp and levels

so at the start you basically only alowed to play level 1 cards, and each level 1 cards have a value of 2xp, once that card is defeated, the 2 xp is added to both players xp, and once your xp gets to a certain threshhold, you level up to level 2 and you xp you colleceted goes back to 0, so to level up again you will need to acumilate xp again but this time it requires more xp to level up again

so lets say at level 1, you need a total lets say 6xp, once you get that both players level up to level 2. the xp you get from killing each others cards are shared, so no matter what both players will level at the same time

the level cap is level 4, and during your turn you are able to play any cards that have a total of 4 level, so if you want to play a level 4 card you can or you can decide to play 4 level 1 cards instead, it is up to you

so while i think it is a good system for my game, the cards die way to fast so i have decided to add an action point system to slow down the killing a little bit. Each turn you have a total of 4 action points you can spend so playing a card cost 1 action point, attacking cost 1 and moving you cards around your side of the grid cost 1, the only thing you can only do once per monster is attack, so if you havnt used an ap this round you cant attack 4 times with 1 card

I kind of like this system, i just need to come up with a main win condition. decking out is obvious but i dont want that to be the main win condition,

Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut