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How to approach RETAIL sales???

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questccg
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Everyone knows that Wholesale to Retail is 50% markup, Publisher to Distributor 60% markup and Cost to Retail a 5x multiplier. Now maybe that does work with the game you are designing, my question is: "What if this is BROKEN and just doesn't work???"

First of all my COST is $5.29 for a set of 15 Game Tiles and a Booster Box (can hold up to 18 cards). While this seems AMAZING because I can offer TRULY "100% random" packs with a sort "of rare chasing" or more "lucky pick"... This means that the "Booster" game is possible.

But just remember how much it is COSTING me! I can't sell it for over $20 ... And even $20 is rather HIGH. Other than the extreme cost ... There is nothing else preventing this product to go to RETAIL...

IF and ONLY IF a gamer would pay like $14.99 for 15 cards! If I apply the math (margins), we get $14.99 MSRP, $7.50 Wholesale, $4.50 60% Distribution ... !!! And my COST is $5.29...

That means that this game CANNOT go to retail (Store). Ughh, I know I can make some monies via a Kickstarter... But I want to be able to continue sales AFTERWARDS ... And right now... None of that seems to be working.

Anyone have some insightful advice???!!!

evansmind244
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Manufacture

Quest, you are going to have to get that manufactured in China eventually to get your cost down. Assuming $5.29 is quoted through TGC. Manufacturing in China would likely be close to $1.70 - $2.70 Landed.

The only other option would be that you accept a break even business model on your Booster box sets and try to make money on the main game, with the future idea of running large print runs in China so you can profit on the game and Booster packs.

Remember we need to start selling our games ASAP, build your contacts/fans, and as our platforms grow we can create profitability with our fans. There is power in giving our games away at cost for a year or two wile we get ourselves established in retail establishments.

Also keep in mind you can bring your games directly to the Retail FLGS in your area and sell them the game at a fair price. I walked into a FLGS and sold my game to them in store for 50% of retail. They put it on their main display right then. The employee called the owner and He sent me payment on PayPal. They prefer to buy through distribution, but there is also a lot of nostalgia about buying from a Local game designer.

The Great Nothing
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Hi Evansmind244, Wow that is

Hi Evansmind244,

Wow that is so much cheaper! Do you have any links for Chinese manufacturers that might work with making lower quantities? The only one I found so far is Panda which are a minimum of 2,000 per order. Super cheap though!

Thanks

Matt

Jay103
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I work with Ningbo Lijia,

I work with Ningbo Lijia, with a 1000-unit minimum.. but if it's a deck of 15 cards, that might be too small for them to want to bother with (maybe).

(also I don't know if they do randomized booster packs.. surely not in a 1000-unit order, but who knows)

evansmind244
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Jay

BTW I got a quote from them for Holiday Fever and they beat my current Manufacture (Gameland) but game land offered me a discount to beat them!! Hahahaha

Jay103
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Glad to help :) I did a

Glad to help :)

I did a 1000-unit reorder with them this summer.. trying to sell them now. Could've sold the whole thing if I'd had it in May, but harder now.. marketing cost per unit sold is much higher, unfortunately.

But still, Black Friday weekend (and the first part of this week) wasn't bad. I sold about 90 things (mostly two-game bundle packs) in the past week. But that's a lot less than 1000.

(actually I also had 41 units badly damaged in shipping, when some bozo jammed his forklift blades directly into the shipping cartons, but that worked out okay because they were insured)

evansmind244
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Damaged Games

Yeah, I think I had about 40 games damaged during shipping. I got a company helping me with Amazon and we are doing awesome about 3 games average per day with a $50 PPC budget. I think we are around 130 sold so far. Black Friday we did 13 copies!!! Now I just need to focus on a Year round game and add to my product list.

questccg
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Was supposed to be the other way around!

evansmind244 wrote:
Quest, you are going to have to get that manufactured in China eventually to get your cost down. Assuming $5.29 is quoted through TGC. Manufacturing in China would likely be close to $1.70 - $2.70 Landed.

I don't disagree. But the whole IDEA behind the Booster Packs was to make some extra monies and yes it's from TGC... I wanted to start small with my Chinese contacts and move forwards from there. So yeah, I wanted this next game to be mostly made in the USA followed by the custom D6s made in China (and there are many reasons for this not just one...)

evansmind244 wrote:
The only other option would be that you accept a break even business model on your Booster box sets and try to make money on the main game, with the future idea of running large print runs in China so you can profit on the game and Booster packs.

Actually the Booster Packs is what was supposed to be the "extra revenue" generator. The "core" set only features a rulebook, dry ink pen, 3 custom dice and a medium bag with crystals. At TGC that costs me $10.50 USD. I mean is anyone going to be willing to pay MORE than $10 USD for a bag with gems?!?! TBH I'm a bit disappointed ATM. It puts the entire project at jeopardy. IDK anymore.

evansmind244 wrote:
Remember we need to start selling our games ASAP, build your contacts/fans, and as our platforms grow we can create profitability with our fans. There is power in giving our games away at cost for a year or two wile we get ourselves established in retail establishments.

Can't do squat until TradeWorlds is fulfilled and shipped. But we are nearing the Production/Sample stage with that game. We're looking to make a final decision on the manufacturer in the next 2 weeks (before Christmas).

evansmind244 wrote:
Also keep in mind you can bring your games directly to the Retail FLGS in your area and sell them the game at a fair price. I walked into a FLGS and sold my game to them in store for 50% of retail. They put it on their main display right then. The employee called the owner and He sent me payment on PayPal. They prefer to buy through distribution, but there is also a lot of nostalgia about buying from a Local game designer.

The problem in my area is that many of the French Owners want to buy from French Designers. English in Quebec have little to no representation in this industry. Most of the retailers are in small towns outside of Montreal and there are around 200+ stores scattered around the province. The BEST bet in my area is to SELL to either of the TWO (2) Distributors... Because then there is no more French issue... You are buying through your preferred sales channel.

And they all buy from those two (2) distributors which also have a presence in Ontario and I believe B.C. (not 100% sure TBH).

evansmind244
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Quest

I'm not sure exactly when I will be manufacturing but I will have to order another 1-4000 units in 2021. Perhaps we can collaborate on that order. I'd be happy to send your product specs to the manufacture and ask them to do it side by side and see what the cost would be. Could save us both money. As for TW how much would it cost to get the game back from the Publisher? There has to be an offer that would get the game back in your control so the Manufacturing can get done, and games shipped?

questccg
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TradeWorlds ATM is under control and will be fulfilled...

But really all I am trying to do TODAY is to figure what are my options. And TBH, I'm not seeing any REAL future in the retail or distribution sectors.

And this is a fault with TGC... The pricing is too HIGH to get into distribution and as far as RETAIL goes... Like I said, they mostly prefer to buy from distributors.

I just don't see much BEYOND the KS ... And that to me SIGNALS a "big problem"...! Sure my company might make $5k USD which is all real nice... Not having a RETAIL or future market strategy really pains me. It basically says that my ONLY Avenue is Kickstarter and afterwards no possibility of growing the brand ... Because with TGC pricing, there is no way to support middlemen only Designer/TGC Manufacturer.

I've still got time to figure things out. I'm going to do some NEW playtesting over the weekend with "Crystal Heroes" and considering that I haven't playtested the game for a while, I want to TEST the latest crystal/pouch quantities... I've opting to RID myself of the 1 Player set and sell two (2) options: a 2 Player Duel and a 4 Multi-Player Game.

I also need to review my KS projections... With *NEW* pricing and format.

It's one thing to RID yourself of a Reward Tier... Another thing is to retrofit your plans (in terms of customer offer) such that the venture is a success using the newer pricing and format.

I need some more time to process and re-think what to do AFTERWARDS. Right now with the new pricing and format, I need to re-evaluate the KS and see the success levels (minimums). After that is done... Well then I can see how to move forwards again.

Don't worry... I just need some time to re-think things a bit.

I Will Never Gr...
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TGC is not the route ..

questccg wrote:
But really all I am trying to do TODAY is to figure what are my options. And TBH, I'm not seeing any REAL future in the retail or distribution sectors.

And this is a fault with TGC... The pricing is too HIGH to get into distribution and as far as RETAIL goes... Like I said, they mostly prefer to buy from distributors.

The reality is that TGC is not meant for manufacturing or for any game going to retail. That's Print on Demand for you. High cost of manufacture, low quantity (as low as 1).

The *only* way to get in to retail is to go through traditional manufacturing at higher quantities (500+).

Also, 5x multiplier is an outdated number. Most publishers are doing 7-10x these days. 5x will break even and pay for a second print run where you start to profit. Most games don't get a 2nd print run, thus the adoption of the 7-10x multiplier.

Your options are;
- Traditional manufacturing (either by footing the bill yourself or going through crowdfunding) or,
- Signing with a publisher and letting them handle it.

The Great Nothing wrote:
Hi Evansmind244,

Wow that is so much cheaper! Do you have any links for Chinese manufacturers that might work with making lower quantities? The only one I found so far is Panda which are a minimum of 2,000 per order. Super cheap though!

Panda are the most expensive of the bunch, and with good cause (they are high quality and seriously overbooked with the big publishers and mid size alike).

I would recommend looking at Gameland (they offer 500 minimum), and Whatz (1000 min for first time orders). I've used them both and they're excellent.

questccg
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Baby steps!

Look I know that going to China is a big difference. The real ISSUE is that I don't want to do everything in ONE (1) single pass. The idea was to use "The Game Crafter" to have my game MADE IN THE USA and have custom d6s to be made in China and inserted during manufacturing. It's as simple as that.

TGC is a great service ... But there are facets which are still a bit, how to say it... "questionable". Things like getting *NICE* in normal colors (Rounded 16mm d6s) is still not available, you only have the cheap-@ss ones (squared ones) which look so unprofessional it's not funny.

The custom d6 option costs $5.00 for screen-printing per die.

So the goal is to do EVERYTHING TGC does AMAZINGLY and add $0.25 for the custom Engraved d6s (Made in China)...

I'm not finished YET... I still have some ideas to focus on the KS ... And from there see what can be done afterwards. But it's Baby steps! First we KS, then we make the game via TGC and then figure out what happens AFTERWARDS!

Thank you for all your insight... I will consider a better multiplier (7x to 10x multiplier) too. Again one thing at a time. Cheers!

questccg
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Don't underestimate TGC services!

I Will Never Grow Up Gaming wrote:
The reality is that TGC is not meant for manufacturing or for any game going to retail. That's Print on Demand for you. High cost of manufacture, low quantity (as low as 1)...

But yet the have AMAZING Randomization Options to design a fully personalized and customized product for each person buy a game from them.

I Will Never Grow Up Gaming wrote:
The *only* way to get in to retail is to go through traditional manufacturing at higher quantities (500+).

Definitely the NEXT Level... But FIRST I need to see how the game will be perceived: will players like it and early adopters invest in it?

I Will Never Grow Up Gaming wrote:
Also, 5x multiplier is an outdated number. Most publishers are doing 7-10x these days. 5x will break even and pay for a second print run where you start to profit. Most games don't get a 2nd print run, thus the adoption of the 7-10x multiplier.

Having enough money for a 2nd print run is important. But also having more money for future projects is EQUALLY important too!

I will think about everything said... Right now I am focused on making the Kickstarter a success ... What happens afterwards, IDK. For the moment this is a bit uneasy. But what can I say!

Jay103
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evansmind244 wrote:Yeah, I

evansmind244 wrote:
Yeah, I think I had about 40 games damaged during shipping. I got a company helping me with Amazon and we are doing awesome about 3 games average per day with a $50 PPC budget. I think we are around 130 sold so far. Black Friday we did 13 copies!!! Now I just need to focus on a Year round game and add to my product list.

How are your retail sales doing this month?

evansmind244
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Jay

I'm not in any Retail stores this year. On Amazon, we've sped up for December with an average of 3-6 games a day. I just submitted 15 orders over the weekend, but with QuarterMaster Today 7DEC is our "Deliver by Christmas" day for FedEx Smart post. I'll have to go to FedEx ground for $18 per box in shipping to get it to customers who order from here on out.
With the fact that I've moved something close to 150 games in a month-ish, I'm definitely going to hit up Walmart Really Really Really Really hard for 2021.
Unfortunately Walmart just stopped communicating with me after the COVID break out.
How are your sales going? Have you gotten into FLGS or retailers?

Jay103
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evansmind244 wrote:I'm not in

evansmind244 wrote:
I'm not in any Retail stores this year. On Amazon, we've sped up for December with an average of 3-6 games a day. I just submitted 15 orders over the weekend, but with QuarterMaster Today 7DEC is our "Deliver by Christmas" day for FedEx Smart post. I'll have to go to FedEx ground for $18 per box in shipping to get it to customers who order from here on out.
With the fact that I've moved something close to 150 games in a month-ish, I'm definitely going to hit up Walmart Really Really Really Really hard for 2021.
Unfortunately Walmart just stopped communicating with me after the COVID break out.
How are your sales going? Have you gotten into FLGS or retailers?

I've moved about 50 units through Indie Press Revolution, most of which I believe went to retailers but I forget the exact numbers.

Running a facebook ad with a big coupon code for my bundle pack, I've been selling pretty well.. 5-20 units per day, but with noticeable marketing costs on that of course. I didn't work out the exact number but probably $20 in marketing to get $54 in revenue, $15 of which goes to shipping. But right now I'm just looking to move some units so that's fine.. I'll take the profit I can get right now.

Oh and yeah, exact same QML issue for me :). However, if you're sending to anyone in the southeast, you can probably get away with the cheaper shipping for a little longer.

evansmind244
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Jay

That's some good numbers Jay. I really don't like Amazon, because they take down my reviews for no reason with no notification, and I can't get my customers emails to send them a Thank You email. Also they hold a bunch of my profit for what ever reason.
Using the FB adds to direct customers to my website would be better, but last year we didn't have too much success with FB Adds. Of course I didn't do a huge budget either.
I too am just trying to get games out there (no worries over marketing budget), and hopefully word to mouth will begin to increase over the years. Each year I plan to send all my customers Christmas Cards, and something special for Christmas in July. A cool magnet or stickers that their kids can open and enjoy.
They say there is something like 250 people each of us know who are close enough to get a gift at some point in their lives. So over the life of a customer that could be amazing return sales if I provide them with an epic game, and keep them as close as possible.
So far so good on the reviews, and I'm getting more an more reviews.
How are your reviews going? I feel like since I haven't been slaughtered in my reviews I have no reason not to order more games, and continue to increase my marketing budget.

questccg
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TBH

It sounds a bit disheartening... I've heard that Amazon charges crazy prices for floorspace during the Christmas prelude (October-December)... And that overall Amazon is "hard" to make money because of all the fees and associated costs that go into having inventory to sell on Amazon.

But just to help the two of you out... Before FBA, sellers used to DROPSHIP their items once they received news of a sale. Now I can't remember with whom I had this conversation with... But someone told me they do STILL offer the "dropship" method, however FBA is preferred because Amazon makes more money using FBA and offers customers incentives like 2 Day Delivery to Prime Members, etc.

However the "dropship" method allows you to warehouse your stock wherever you like and when you get a sale, you ship it to the location. Since you guys are use QML, my guess is that you are already "dropshipping" your games. Correct?!

Sorry I could not help more... That's the only information that I have: stay away from FBA because of the even higher fees during the Holiday Season and use the "dropship" method to still allow you game to be sold from Amazon.

In any event... Having your product for SALE on Amazon is GOOD... Because everyone goes to Amazon to SEARCH FIRST and then given that price look around and see IF they can BUY DIRECT too. That's the other nugget I got about Amazon: your consumer doesn't need to BUY it on Amazon. All he/she needs to do is FIND IT. As such your Amazon PRICE should be HIGHER than say a DIRECT Website sale (from your own website). That's something else that I was told about "dropshipping": the best way is to sell via your website and dropship from a US warehouse.

So, your Amazon PRICE should be "higher" than the price on your website. There are some good principle to consumerism in this. 1> You make sure your product is VISIBLE on Amazon, 2> This means that the consumer will be encouraged to do a price comparison on several sources 3> Offer a good deal from your own website (bypassing the Amazon fees and such) 4> You make the consumer feel "smart" in that he found a DEAL!

Anyhow maybe this can help the two of you... Cheers!

questccg
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Something also to consider

It seems like the BOTH of you have decided to go the "Direct Sales" route. Is this the "best" solution? It must be good since the both of you are going in that direction.

Amazon + your own website = 100% MSRP. You take the whole PIE and don't need to share with anyone. Well yes there are "listing" prices for Amazon even if you don't make any sales. But PPC budgets are for the most part useless if you figure that Amazon is only for "Window Shoppers" and that your own website is where you make all the final "transactions".

I will explore further the 100% retail strategy ... Because it means that my own game "Crystal Heroes" can retail directly too... Maybe. I'm not sure. Granted that the COST I'm getting for production is about 50% or 60% of retail... @IWNGUG was right when he said that the 5x markup was no longer the best reference . Or more precisely just enough to barely make ends meet.

It's hard to invest in one production run and then have all kinds of other games that need financing too... Granted that may be @Jay103 not evans issue since Jay103 has multiple SKUs: "core" + expansion.

But this is good "advice" to see what everyone else is trying to do... And how they are succeeding or what challenges they may be having. Maybe some of my research might be a bit useful (or maybe not!) Cheers...

evansmind244
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Quest

This is what it looks like for Amazon Drop Shipping Holiday Fever

Condition: New
Quantity: 1
Price: $39.95
Tax: $3.10
Shipping: $0.00
Amazon fees: -$5.99
Marketplace Facilitator Tax: -$3.10
Your earnings: $33.96

So I pay $12.50 to Ship the game Fedex Smart Post and it will be $18.50 to speed that up for the next week to ensure the game will arrive by Christmas.

Lets pretend my Landed Cost is $10. That Gives me $11.46 Profit per game @ $12.5 shipping. My max budget is $50 a day for PPC. That doesn't mean they spend $50 a day, but if they did I would be around $2,250 for PPC Marketing. Which will cut out all my profit after I pay for shipping.
Of course to me this is the price I must pay to eventually get my game into Walmart, Target, Barnes and Noble or even license it to someone like Hasbro.
I feel that if I can show them that I move 150 games in a month on Amazon with $50/day marketing budget, they will be more likely to want to stock my game. The beauty of Walmart is that I can be a Local vendor in up to 60 stores. Which means I can supply all games direct to Walmart, and cut out the Distribution completely. Once it grows beyond 60 stores, you go to global supplier and must use Walmarts in house distribution. At that point I can publish my own 2nd game or find one of YOU ALL's games and immediately list it on my seller sheet in Walmart. A year of Test Run on Amazon may not be a bad idea for any potential game I would want placed in Walmart.
Personally I will get off of Amazon as soon as I possibly can. I don't like anything about working with Amazon. Bah Humbug to Amazon.

Jay103
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evansmind244 wrote: So far

evansmind244 wrote:
So far so good on the reviews, and I'm getting more an more reviews.
How are your reviews going? I feel like since I haven't been slaughtered in my reviews I have no reason not to order more games, and continue to increase my marketing budget.

I'm only selling on my own site, not Amazon, so no reviews, but people do post on my facebook ads about how they have the game and love it, or whatever :). Very little negative feedback from anyone who has the game.

Quote:
Lets pretend my Landed Cost is $10. That Gives me $11.46 Profit per game @ $12.5 shipping. My max budget is $50 a day for PPC. That doesn't mean they spend $50 a day, but if they did I would be around $2,250 for PPC Marketing. Which will cut out all my profit after I pay for shipping.

Or, more directly, you need to be selling 5 games a day to make any profit, and 3 games a day to not be losing money outright.

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questccg wrote:It seems like

questccg wrote:
It seems like the BOTH of you have decided to go the "Direct Sales" route. Is this the "best" solution? It must be good since the both of you are going in that direction.

Well, you keep all the money (with the "dropship" version in the middle, in terms of profit), but you also can't use Amazon's free shipping if you're not doing FBA. Since shipping is about $14 for me (and I eat that cost), that absorbs a lot of fees by Amazon if I choose to go FBA.

Maybe I'll do that next year. I don't really like the high warehouse fees.

let-off studios
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Exposure vs. Sales

Based on what I've picked up so far, it seems there are two main ways to use Amazon to one's advantage:

  • Overprice your product on Amazon so a savvy shopper goes to your own website or other online store, and buys it there. UPSIDE: you avoid paying fees to Amazon.
  • Sell your product on Amazon, using all possible/affordable Amazon features, so that larger vendors (in this case, WalMart) will see that your product has high-volume sales potential.

Has anyone settled on what's the best route to take? Has anyone seen and can report on one pathway that's led to the most profitable/least-of-a-hassle outcome?

I'm legitimately curious about all this. It's been a fascinating discussion here.

questccg
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To add to that...

I think it depends WHERE you actually want to SELL! Like in @Jay103 case, a RPG game might NOT sell well at Walmart. Online sales give him 100% MSRP and allow him to warehouse the games where ever he chooses. Whereas @Evans game which is more mainstream, may do well in Walmart especially NEXT to a Monopoly game. I'm not stating this as FACTS ... Just observations.

Also getting one SKU into Walmart may be easier than several like in @Jay103 case since he has 2 SKUs: a "core" game and an "expansion". I personally can't see Walmart selling an "expansion"... This to me works best in FLGSs, ONLINE or Hobby Stores only. Actually come to think of it... Maybe ONLY ONLINE. Why? Well it seems if you can get the "core" into stores, you won't need DOUBLE the shelf space if you offer the expansion online only...

For the real FAN ... Online purchases can be an excellent way of getting more entrenched with the Brand ... But is this all people??? Probably no. IMHO the online sales of "expansions" is an EXCELLENT way to push more product to the FANS. It doesn't bog down stores who have limited store shelving for say only one product (especially when competing with all the other Brands/games).

And that's kinda what you want with a "core" game: to be "Evergreen".

Expansions can be sold online with all kinds of other possibilities for the FANS of the "core" game. But STORE customers will probably be from "core" sales... If you use this kind of RETAIL strategy.

It gives me MORE to think about. I'm really glad I brought this topic up. It seems to be interesting and it has helped me too. A couple nights ago, I supped up "Crystal Heroes" (CH) and made some very WISE choices for that game... Much thanks to this thread which woke me up when it came to retailing and what were the avenues and which could be a possible PATH for games with HIGH COSTS (such as the ones produced by The Game Crafter).

I say HIGH, what I mean is PRICEY-ER costs. Not prohibitive or exorbitant ones... Just ones that make TRADITIONAL retailing hard. Anyhow ... I will continue to research this further and if anyone else cares to comment please feel free to do so!

questccg
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There are several GREAT up-sides to ...

"The Game Crafter" (TGC): you can produce as many copies as you like ... and you get price breaks for the more that you buy.

Why does this matter? Well say I had a "small" game ... Something that is sold in packs of 14 cards and retails for $12.99 USD can be made for $5.29 and has a reasonable markup that can be sold ONLINE (one channel), to stores at a 50% discount (so $6.50 USD) for like 12 packs (so $78.00 USD wholesale) and then on Amazon.com for $19.99 USD...

This is my highest cost (most expensive pricing). If I buy more copies, the cost goes DOWN. Now I'm not saying I'm going to make millions retailing in this fashion... I'm just saying that I can at least get the game INTO FLGSs or Hobby Stores who want to SELL the product.

And again ... It's trying to build a Brand and see if people are INTERESTED by the game ... If there is a FAN-Base for the game... Great! I'm willing to make efforts to make more cards and get more art illustrated and generally "organically" grow the game (for the TRUE FANS).

I know we are mostly discussion profitability in this thread... But it should come at nobody's surprise ... If there is no demand ... there is no need for any supply. Which means if people are INTERESTED in the game (and believe me CH is a great little game — sure it's lighter tile game but that doesn't mean it's not filled with determinism ... Many serious gamers prefer...) the game can be made available to them. And in whatever way the DEMAND goes ... with TGC, you can control this 100%.

So what you are doing is managing costs and getting the game out-there... And you can do so without "breaking the bank" ... Like having to make 2000 or more units to warehouse (and pay their fees) ... This makes lighter games more accessible BECAUSE of the "one-off" production.

Just saying ... Making games can be COSTLY, TGC just makes the process AFFORDABLE to make. Yeah the COSTs may seem higher (which they are)... But you can limit your inventory and go with whatever is selling better if you have multiple products (think different games... and mechanics).

Definitely UP-SIDES to me!

Jay103
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How rapidly does your $5.29

How rapidly does your $5.29 cost per unit come down?

When I priced a simple deck of cards (no box.. boxes are very pricey from TGC), it was $9.19 for one, and $6.19 for 100, and $4.84 for 1000 (not that I planned to do that).

$1.35 for the same deck in a linen finish from China (plus freight, but 1000 decks of cards is pretty small). So for me, the break-even point on something simple like that would be at around 250 units, at which point it would be cheaper to have 1000 units made in China instead..

(and that's for cards.. if you need punch-outs it's more like 100 units, and that's without the thing where all your pieces have sooty edges..)

So anyway, I feel TGC makes a lot of sense for prototypes and very low-quantity print runs, but I can't really imagine using them for something going to retail stores.

evansmind244
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Amazon

I personally wouldn't over price my product on Amazon to attempt to get a customer to go to my website. If a Customer is searching on Amazon, I'm happy to let them purchase on Amazon, even though I don't get their email address, and direct contact with them. Amazon typically makes everything easier for the Customer who searches on Amazon. All their info is saved and they don't need to do anything but confirm the purchase. Not to mention I feel like it would give customers a bad taste to see that the Amazon price was above my website.
With Amazon I at least get their mailing address where I can send a Thank You card etc....It's not ideal, but it is also very cool to receive snail mail these days, and can impress the customer. Another
Option is printing an insert for the fulfillment center to insert into your box.(%50 off the expansion, or BOGO free on your next purchase)
As for Amazon, no one is telling you what your price needs to be, and asking what your Landed costs are. Even when I use FBA I will still be able to adjust the price to make up for fees.
This year, I have been selling HF for $39.95 on Amazon. I want my game to be a $24.95 game, but obviously need to land about 8K games to get to that price point. Amazon is showing me that I can Charge $40 for the game and still sell 150 games in about a month.
Ultimately, for me Walmart Local Supplier will be the best deal overall.

questccg
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More than just prototypes... Trust me!

Jay103 wrote:
How rapidly does your $5.29 cost per unit come down?

I can get it lowered by $0.53 between 1 and 100. So not too large of a savings, but if I project on the top price... I just make extra with some volume.

jay103 wrote:
When I priced a simple deck of cards (no box.. boxes are very pricey from TGC), it was $9.19 for one, and $6.19 for 100, and $4.84 for 1000 (not that I planned to do that).

I think the variance is much lower nowadays on TGC. It seems like the pricing per unit is lower and that the discounts for volume are also lower.

jay103 wrote:
$1.35 for the same deck in a linen finish from China (plus freight, but 1000 decks of cards is pretty small). So for me, the break-even point on something simple like that would be at around 250 units, at which point it would be cheaper to have 1000 units made in China instead..

For me it's not just a question of price. TGC has one of the simplest and the most flexible Pack Randomizer... That allows you so much flexibility. JT personally explained and showed me how to use it even better than other randomized techniques.

It's real cool... You can define 5 categories for random cards, then you can specify the number of cards in each one of the categories and then you can allow or deny duplicates and then when you add cards you can do duplicates too... To give you even finer or more granular control.

For example, I can have a category called Rare. And say I want 1 out of 10 to be a Mythic card. All I do is add 9 doubles and only 1 Mythic. So I can have Rares PLUS a random Mythic. And I can control the odds and randomization.

Doing that with sheets and card counts is a real pain in the @$$. TGC makes it so simple. I have ONLY 15 unique cards plus 10 stat randomized cards... And with ONLY that I can SELL boosters. I'm not saying people will buy 100 packs... But maybe 5 to 10 could be possible.

jay103 wrote:
So anyway, I feel TGC makes a lot of sense for prototypes and very low-quantity print runs, but I can't really imagine using them for something going to retail stores.

That's probably because you've never explored booster packs and boxes. I can't imagine how difficult it would be using sheets and calculating card counts. I've spoken with Wendy and she told me different paper, different card counts.

For example, German black core is 54 per sheet, Chinese black core is 80 per sheet.

I just can't imagine how complicated it would be to have 5 categories of cards PLUS add to this a random chase card and then a static card. Just too complicated. With TGC it is so simple...

But as you know, the costs are higher. Anyhow, we'll see how the KS goes first and then I can see what kind of RETAIL strategy I can use...

Note #1: I realize why my COST break for bulk is not that high: I only have 14 cards per Pack. So there is a small discount for the cards and another small discount for the Packaging (Hook Box). If I had more cards, maybe the discount would be more significant and I'd have to use something like a Poker Tuck Box.

questccg
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Here's what I mean

Let's say I have four (4) out of five (5) categories: A000, B000, C000 and D000. The fifth category I name Unused.

Each category has 3 random cards. So 3 x 4 = 12 cards.

So say A000 has 2 unique cards. And both are equally likely. All I do is add ONE (1) card of each. 50% likelihood for 3 random cards.

But for B000 we have 4 unique cards with different odds. Say 2 to 1 for 2 cards. So I add 2, 2, 1 and 1 cards and I get my distribution correctly based on 3 cards chosen.

However it doesn't end there. I want one (1) chase card per pack. So I have a separate config like this: 4 common, 3 uncommon, 2 rare and 1 mythic.

Plus I want to add a static card which varies per edition but is the same for all packs: my Nexus card.

Do you see how SIMPLE this randomization is... But at the same time IMPOSSIBLE with sheets and just card counts.

Well with TGC it can be done really simple even if the price per pack is a bit higher. For my purpose, TGC is amazing because they can make it happen and for me it is really SIMPLE.

Note #1: I know you say this might be far fetched. But that's how the packs are randomized for Crystal Heroes... 12 game tiled per pack, an assortment of tiles to play, with one (1) chase card and one static card. Simple.

questccg
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Why so complicated???

The answer lies in the Deck Construction mechanic. So I wanted players to build their own decks. But at the same time, I wanted it to be easy to understand HOW you do this.

And the answer is simple. There are 4 categories (A000, B000, C000 and D000). You must choose 3 cards in each category.

It's as SIMPLE as that. Cards are designed to be compatible per Block. This means that children can customize with the Heroes they prefer while adults and teens can make more detailed analysis to figure out which cards they want to play with.

Same thing with NEW players. It's not hard to understand what cards are good together and how you can build a balanced deck of tiles...

So there is a real reason for this kind of distribution. It's to simplify things but still offer experts the option to go even further and make a balanced Deck (with the 4 Blocks).

Note #1: Like I said for *NEW* players, all you need to do is PICK 3 cards for each of the 4 Blocks and your deck is BALANCED. Well yes it is probably possible to build a better than average deck if you go deeper into each of the game's tiles... But generally speaking, all you need is 3 x 4 = 12 cards and you can play "equally" well (as I would say)!

questccg
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It's only 1 page in the rulebook...

To describe HOW to build a Deck (Deck Construction). So I'm pretty sure it's not overly complex. Even children can understand HOW to build their own Decks. And so the goal is to offer 2 reward tiers: 1> for 2 Player Duels which includes 2 Packs and 2> for 4 Players Multi-Play which includes 4 Packs.

My hope is to encourage people to buy additional Packs... Given a stronger pool of cards to choose from. And in terms of reality, the funding goal is around $13k with a top stretch goal of $35k. I'm not really expecting huge support ... But with some stretch goals, manage to fund 1 complete set of customized cards (15 cards in total).

And my numbers are conservative also... I've not aimed for block buster figures... I think my top stretch goal is with 1,000 Backers. Something that is feasible from previous interest in my games. So this is a top stretch goal, my bottom goal is only 300 Backers which should also be possible given previous support.

Anyways we'll see what people think when the time comes! Cheers.

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