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Kabula TableTop RPG

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terzamossa
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Joined: 09/24/2020
Aloe Wolf Forest Monster lv.1 V.6.3

Hi all, when I joined this forum I promised at some point I would share about the game. This is it! We just finished the website and launched a new session of blind playtesting, so if you are interested in giving a look, here it is: https://www.kabularpg.com/ You will find links to play for free on Tabletopia (you can create a room and play solo or invite friends to the same room), links for the rulebook and for a youtube "how to play" video and even an online feedback form to make the process smoother. Any feedback is welcome, on the game, on the website, on the rulebook etc.

Kabula is a competitive tabletop RPG for 2-6 players, but the online version is currently up to 4 players...we are also testing out the solo mode, more about it on the rulebook. The game has super epic fantasy elements, you can explore dungeons, have highly strategic combat, fight monsters and keep one as your "familio"...but it is also full of silly jokes, crazy characters and weird encounters. So don't expect your classical DnD inspired fantasy World. Looking forward to see what you think, we are aiming at launching on Kickstarter in about 5 months, so any help is really appreciated!

Antonio

terzamossa
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Anybody here? :)

I would like to think nobody is commenting because everything is perfect and there is just nothing we should change in Kabula.

Unfortunately, I know this is not true :)
Did something in my post put you off? Did something in the game put you off?
Is the rulebook too intimidating?
Any idea you have, feel free to share, don't be afraid to be mean :)

We worked a lot on it but we still have a good deal of work to do and are well aware of this!
Cheers,
Antonio

Jay103
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"We believe that playing

"We believe that playing games is a lot more fun than studying their rulebooks. And we think that the best way to learn the rules of a game is to play it. We hope you have fun playing Kabula!"

I'm not a big fan of your opening paragraph. You're (a) implying that people should learn by playing instead of by reading the rules, which makes no real sense unless they're playing with someone who already knows them, and (b) it makes me think (as a reader) that the rulebook will be lacking. The SECOND paragraph motivates this better, so I'm not sure what the point of this first paragraph is.

As a more general comment, you have an RPG system, which by nature means it's going to be somewhat complicated (though I commend you on not having a ton of stats to track). Your Quick Start section has no graphics to explain what we're supposed to be learning. The main section does, even though according to the instructions, I'm reading the QS for my introduction. The main section is where "board setup" is. How am I possibly supposed to play after only reading the QS? Even the instructions for the QS say to consult the main rules for many things (like SETUP, or how Rage works, etc., because those are not in the QS)

I would maybe focus on how to blend these two sections into a single cohesive manual that clearly explains what's happening. Now you have two separate sections neither of which seems to quite do this. If you wanted to have a "first game with reduced stuff in it," like Catan does, that would be different, but that's not what you have.

I'm guessing the manual was translated from French? Definitely have a native English speaker (and/or a proofreader) go through it.

Your component list doesn't list any of the player or herald mats.

I was surprised that there weren't more monsters in the game. I have an RPG that gets by with only a dozen or so monsters, but that's with a constructed storyline, not a random one, and I can have encounters with multiple monsters at once. I mean, you have status debuffs like "nausea".. I assumed with that much detail, there would be more than 30 total monsters, but perhaps that's enough..

Be careful with trying to be too clever with your cards. That sort of thing gets old fast (like, on the second or third run-through), and players will at best be reading just the (hp-1), (rage+2) parts of the card, and not the text. Also be wary of being so clever that you break the style completely, like those bounty hunters who are taking selfies. I didn't even understand why finding bounty hunters would mean you get paid in the future for hitting people (they're bounty HUNTERS, not GIVERS), but the selfie thing definitely didn't help matters.

Have you estimated the cost to print this game? There are a lot of larger components (game board and the mats, whatever those are composed of) and this won't be that cheap.

All I've got for now..

terzamossa
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Thanks!

Hello Jay thanks so much for checking our rulebook and writing this feedback, really appreciated!
Writing a rulebook that makes everybody happy is fairly difficult...we'll use your feedback to improve the next version, you have definitely lots of good points! (I only don't agree with the player mats nor being in the description, as it is there, maybe your pdf viewer had troubles loading the images? not too important anyway)

We started off with 42 monsters + 8 heralds, now we tuned it down to 30 monsters and 1 main herald per game (but we are working on more that you can choose in different games). We will add more monsters as stretch goals, but I must say I don't fully agree with 30 not being enough: I just checked my copy of Gloomhaven Jaws of the Lion and there are 16 kind of monsters for 25 scenarios. In Kabula, monsters are only one part of the game, players also use their turns fighting each others and exploring road encounters or dungeons. In average each player might fight 2-3 monsters in a game...for 4 players, it will mean 12 different monsters maximum each game. Statistically, next time they play, some of these 12 will be the same, some will be different. The prototype currently uploaded has even less monsters but we never saw players being disappointed by meeting the same monster two games in a row (and when someone else gets as familio a monster another player had as familio last game, this latter often gets jealous, which is funny to see!)
Similarly this applies to "being clever", I totally agree with what you say "it gets old" Weare mitigating this by having 1) some options which include some dice rolls (which I don't love mechanically, but adds unpredictability to a card you already know) and 2) same as for monsters, each player will see maybe 3 encounters per game and there are 40...it doesn't get old that quick, people keep laughing after few games (I can't guarantee after 10 games as we haven't tried that with the same group of external players...but at that stage you focus much more on beating the others and being tactical anyway, the fun aspect starts coming out of competition more than jokes after few games)
We are already tuning down some parts and I'll make sure the bounty hunters stuff and other similar things are better tied to the main plot. Thanks for pointing this out!
(by the way we only have 2 status modifications and nausea is one of those...we don't have the usual poison, would, frozen or whatever)

We have quotes from manufacturers and estimated selling costs, I prefer not writing it openly as it may change before we launch but it is really much in line with what you can expect by a similar complexity game (rubebound, kemet, etc) and we'll offer cheaper options with standees and more expensive pledges with some minis (we will most likely not go for minis for all 30 monsters as this is our first KS and don't want to have a high goal)

Thanks again for your feedback, FYI it was pasted in a thread I have with the others in the team and we'll go again through it before the next revision, so don't think I am answering here and forgetting about it, it will definitely be used!
Antonio

Jay103
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Quote:Writing a rulebook that

Quote:
Writing a rulebook that makes everybody happy is fairly difficult...we'll use your feedback to improve the next version, you have definitely lots of good points! (I only don't agree with the player mats nor being in the description, as it is there, maybe your pdf viewer had troubles loading the images? not too important anyway)

I'd argue that the rulebook is the hardest thing to do for a game.. even harder than the design itself, perhaps. By "hard" I'm referring to doing it right, of course :)

For the mats, I was referring to the top of page 11, the Component List.

Quote:
In average each player might fight 2-3 monsters in a game...for 4 players

If monsters are that rare, then I completely agree with you. (my own game is more combat-focused, so almost every room has monsters in it, for 5-8 battles per session)

Have you done a KS before? I'd say one thing to keep in mind is that if you meet your goal but get a single pledge at the "minis" level, you have to make minis. Be careful what you're on the hook for.

I'd definitely suggest looking for some feedback here when you have your KS page in production (but before it goes live). Many of us here have done KS campaigns (including successful ones! ;) )

It's very hard to keep prices down.. My base game's landed cost is around $14, and S&H to the customer is another $14 or so. Yet more to Europe or Canada. Who are you looking at for manufacturing? I use Ningbo Lijia myself, and I've had quotes for maybe five different games with different types of components (two of which are vaporware), so I'm happy to compare and contrast if that's of any help. I've alse seen some very different answers on cost from different companies.

Jay103
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Hmm, Spanish, not French. I

Hmm, Spanish, not French. I should've paid more attention :)

At least it'll be easier for you to get to EU customers.

Anyway, I just wanted to repeat my usual advice to people thinking about a Kickstarter:

You need to have the ability to contact 1000 potential customers within the first hour of the Kickstarter, or you're not ready.

I had about 600 people on an email list, plus access to advertise on a forum of people who loved my artist, and my original game's graph looked like this:

http://kicktraq.com/projects/727578181/heroes-and-treasure-rpg-board-game/

That's a struggle. It got there, but it was a struggle. Be prepared ahead of time. Build up your social media presence now, before the clock is ticking.

terzamossa
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You're wrong only on one point!

I am italian :)
and to be fair, the rulebook was partially written by a Czech person who is taken for native by most people. It must have been my fault anyway :) while writing a lot and getting tired I must have fallen back to some more comfortable italian structure, I'll make sure a native checks next version!

on page 11, that is the "Board Set up", and only components for the main board and shared decks are listed. All components for players or Heralds are in "Hero Set up" and "Herald Set up"...the idea is that you always need to do the Board Set up, while others depend on which Herald you choose and how many people play...probably those headlines to the right are not very helpful in making this clear, sorry for that!

I really appreciate all of the feedback and general help, thanks a lot!

We never launched a KS, studying a lot to find the best way to do it :)
I was in a biotech startup which helps up to a point.
We just launched the website few days ago, went public on Instagram this week and starting slowly to build the mailing list. I second everything you say...our goal is to launch in May, but if we don't get at least 1000 subscribers by then we will postpone.
Before we launch, I'll definitely take on your offer to have a look at the KS page :)

On the mini and stretch goals: yes, totally agree, thanks for the tip! The core box will have the 4 miniatures for the 4 characters, so everybody will get those (6 with stretch goals possibly). The extra minis should just be Heralds and possibly we will resin cast them (so we'll also consider higher price and only produce those ordered). All the other monsters will be standees only with the possibility to buy the STL and 3d print them at home.
I contacted Panda GM, they have a minimum copy number of 2500 which is very high...but the cost is good at that point and they are very respected, so I thought this could strengthen our image (partially compromised by being first time producers). Then we'll have to find somebody for the fulfilment, I am still not really looking into it, but definitely has to be sorted before writing the pledge levels.
I am having a look at Ningbo Lijia, as you had a good experience with them I should definitely drop them a line! Thanks again!
I also had a look at your KS video, that is genius :) We are all thinking of cool graphics and expensive production but you really found what your value proposition was and made it clear in the best way!

questccg
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Hmm... Not sure about that!?

terzamossa wrote:
...I contacted Panda GM, they have a minimum copy number of 2500 which is very high...but the cost is good at that point and they are very respected, so I thought this could strengthen our image (partially compromised by being first time producers)...

Hmm... Panda is usually EXPENSIVE. 2,500 minimum is TOO HIGH. What if you get less than 500 Backers?! Gameland can produce a minimum of 500 units. And then most of the other manufacturers in China have a 1000 unit minimum.

Nobody is going to care if YOU pay more for production. All they will care about is the quality of the end product. IF you save a couple thousand dollars on production (well that's money in your pocket), nobody is going to know and even if they did, would probably not hate on you for trying to find the better deal (Which suits your KS needs).

I would prepare other quotes for 500, 1000 and 1500 units. Ask around. My own publisher contacted NINE (9) manufacturers in China and negotiated until he felt we were getting the right quality and the best possible price. And that was for about 1200 units...

Just don't think: "Oh Panda is high quality, so people will buy from us." It doesn't work like that. Panda has nothing to do with your game and it's concept. And the fact that Backers are ALWAYS looking for a DEAL. One of the most critical points is PRICE. And you need to be careful. Why? Because although you are selling the RETAIL price, you need to be mindful of all the costs involved in getting your game to the BACKERS.

That's LANDED costs (freight) PLUS warehousing costs (flooring) PLUS cost to ship to each individual backer too (fulfillment). And you have to be aware that you can give a bit of SAVINGS to the KS Backers ... But not too much... Otherwise it may be harder to sell you game in the future.

Anyways I just wanted to comment, because I think your attitude about "Panda GM" will give us CREDIBILITY is incorrect. Nobody should care WHO made the game, only that it was made correctly as per the specs of the Designer and his Team. Cheers Antonio!

questccg
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Also ...

I'm not sure this Global Pandemic how it will be affecting the sales price of games in the future. @IWNGUG (James) said that 5x COST is the old price and will barely cover the cost of making the game. He said to expect 7x and maybe even 10x multipliers when it comes to production...

Now I realize that 5x COST is a bit tight. It means you only make like $5.00 per game (maybe). Granted 7x might be more expensive ... but you may squeak out a bit more profitability... And since you guys are a TEAM ... That may be important to you and your team.

I guess where @IWNGUG was seeing the 10x multiplier is smaller games being sold at higher price points because of things like COST and the Global Pandemic... So a $6.00 Landed game could go for $60...!? Of course that's where you can lower the price point and maybe offer a price point of $54...!

But I'm sure you get the idea... Figuring out your COST and the RETAIL price points are very important ... And aside from the Game itself, you should be examining BOTH those two price points.

Jay103
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Quote:on page 11, that is the

Quote:
on page 11, that is the "Board Set up", and only components for the main board and shared decks are listed. All components for players or Heralds are in "Hero Set up" and "Herald Set up"...the idea is that you always need to do the Board Set up, while others depend on which Herald you choose and how many people play...probably those headlines to the right are not very helpful in making this clear, sorry for that!

Ah, I see!

Many/most board game manuals start with a list of all the components in the box, so people can easily make sure they have everything. I was assuming that's what I was looking at when I saw "component list". Also please note that because of the formatting, "Component list" is on the left edge, even though it's part of "1.1 Board setup Component list". I totally missed the part at the right of the page. Fixing the formatting should remove most of the confusion.

Quote:
I am having a look at Ningbo Lijia, as you had a good experience with them I should definitely drop them a line! Thanks again!

I can give you a contact there if you'd like.

2500 units is a LOT of units. I had really strong sales when the pandemic hit, and I suppose if I'd had 2500 I might have been able to sell many of them at that point with heavy advertising, but.. 2500 is a LOT of units. Especially expensive units. Maybe you're fully self-funded.. that's up to you. But here's something I didn't think of when I started -- My fulfillment house charges $15/month/pallet for storage, and I believe that's not atypical. One of my pallets, for a game that's roughly 10x11x2, holds 384 games. If I'd had 2500 units and sold 500 quickly, I'd still be paying $90/month, over $1000/year, just for storage space.

1000 is a pretty standard minimum purchase. I'm surprised you couldn't get a quote for that.

Questccg is right in that end customers don't have any idea who the manufacturer is. They're all pretty good I think.

I'm going to guess $2.00 for cards, $2.00 for the board (not knowing how big it is), $0.50 for the mat (not knowing what it's made out of), $0.10 for the dice, $0.60 for two sheets of punch-outs. $1.25 for the box, $1.25 for a 36-page full-color manual. $0.20 for a cardboard insert. $0.50 assembly. $300 in art setup charges. No idea about the mini(s), but without that it's about $8.40/unit. How'd I do?

terzamossa
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Wow, you changed your mind

Wow, you changed your mind completely from when few weeks ago you wanted to produce your game for $5 and sell it for $15 :)

Getting more quotes is absolutely needed and will be done, no worries. We are already happy with the quote from Panda anyway, it brings us to a pledge cost that is totally in line with market value of products with similar components. As we have custom plastics, we will not even try to launch until we think we can get at least 1000 pledges, and we need about 650 to cover costs. Using an established company who deals with big publishers and deals with all the parts of production from design checks, to preprints runs, to full scale production, and has good communication skills, which means we get what we ask, is a massive relief anyway. If not for the customers, at least from us.
Still, as I said we'll contact others! Thanks for commenting!

Jay103
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Quote:As we have custom

Quote:
As we have custom plastics, we will not even try to launch until we think we can get at least 1000 pledges, and we need about 650 to cover costs.

When I said you need to have 1000 good possible customers to launch, that was to give you a shot at getting 100 pledges in the first day or two..

I've posted this several times before (and I do love to brag about it), but Wil Wheaton backed my game and tweeted about it to his 2 million followers. That got me somewhere around 40 pledges. https://twitter.com/wilw/status/1004430065118003200

edit: Btw, Questccg, I believe Jamey's cost numbers are for full retail, but he expected KS prices to be something like a 40% discount off of that.

terzamossa
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Jay103 wrote:I'm going to

Jay103 wrote:
I'm going to guess $2.00 for cards, $2.00 for the board (not knowing how big it is), $0.50 for the mat (not knowing what it's made out of), $0.10 for the dice, $0.60 for two sheets of punch-outs. $1.25 for the box, $1.25 for a 36-page full-color manual. $0.20 for a cardboard insert. $0.50 assembly. $300 in art setup charges. No idea about the mini(s), but without that it's about $8.40/unit. How'd I do?

You are not too far but are missing all the tokens and standees for the monsters (quite a lot). And the plastic supports to keep them up!
The quote I had was considering 6 characters each with player mat, and we had like 3 times more tokens, as most upgrades were done through tokens, now we fit them all in cards. Also there was a thermoformed layer to fit the cards etc, it was close to 12 USD. All of this has to be revised with the new components and it should decrease quite a bit!

Jay103
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Didn't realize the monsters

Didn't realize the monsters had standees.. I thought they were just represented by the card. Huh.

I paid around $0.018 per plastic card stand, as a comparison point. Think it was $0.80 for 45 units in a plastic bag. Doesn't sound like you'd need more than 15 of them, though.

terzamossa
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[quote=Jay103]When I said

Jay103 wrote:
When I said you need to have 1000 good possible customers to launch, that was to give you a shot at getting 100 pledges in the first day or two..

I've posted this several times before (and I do love to brag about it), but Wil Wheaton backed my game and tweeted about it to his 2 million followers. That got me somewhere around 40 pledges. https://twitter.com/wilw/status/1004430065118003200

I really appreciate your concerns but no worries, we are not aiming at 1000 subscribers hoping 600 will fund us...being a musician I know that of the 100 people saying they'll come to your gig, 10 will show up :)
We are working hard to place ourselves in the best possible way before launch, and won't launch before we are ready, promise!
And we'll check for lower number of copies production too!

Nice one on Wil Wheaton! We are starting writing Youtubers and others now and already had some nice teasers on some channel...as I said we just went live this week, but we'll work hard to put ourselves in the best conditions advertisement wise. (and hopefully game wise. I am lucky the other guys are taking over most of the promotion so I can focus mostly on gameplay, stories and art direction)

terzamossa
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questccg

terzamossa wrote:
Wow, you changed your mind completely from when few weeks ago you wanted to produce your game for $5 and sell it for $15 :)

sorry questccg, this was phrased very rudely, I am just a bit surprised we basically had the same discussion with inverted roles over Christmas or something!
I still appreciate the help, and surely will lower costs whenever possible and not risking to compromise production timing/quality (not that I think that you were suggesting to ask anybody dodgy of course!)

questccg
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James not Jamey (not to confuse the two...)

Jay103 wrote:
edit: Btw, Questccg, I believe Jamey's cost numbers are for full retail, but he expected KS prices to be something like a 40% discount off of that.

You mean JAMES, right? @IWNGUG (I Will Never Grow Up Gaming)... So you've read that RETAIL markups should be 7x COST and even higher for some of the less expensive games (in the magnitude of 10x COST)???

He just posted that recently ... And it's TRUE: 5x COST barely makes you as the designer ANY MONEY. TBH it's sometimes LESS than $5.00 a unit. And I'm saying with full distribution (with FREE shipping on minimum orders, 30 day payment terms - means you need to have the cash to pay for production, etc.)

I'm not the most savvy "business man" ... But this is a BUSINESS. If you are representing your own GAMES ... Clearly if you want to reach the public it is true that everything must be considered. AND if 5x COST is too borderline... Well 7x COST might be a better choice.

I was just wondering if anyone had LINKs/URLs to POSTs out there on the Inter-Webs that talk about this (COST multipliers going up... due to Pandemic and the overall cost of doing business going up too!)

If someone does, kindly post a reply with a LINK/URL.

(Sorry Antonio ... Not stealing your thread... But I'm sure you would like said information too... To help make the right decisions. Cheers!)

questccg
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I think ... from what I recall...

terzamossa wrote:
Wow, you changed your mind completely from when few weeks ago you wanted to produce your game for $5 and sell it for $15 :)

No worries Antonio (@terzamossa) ... Yeah that because someone (James) told me to think about better margins because the price of everything will be going UP. And once it goes UP... There isn't no way it will GO DOWN...!

$5 for $15 is going for services like "The Game Crafter". And in my own situation ... They handle all the manufacturing, there is no freight and no flooring, orders are made one-at-a-time and shipped directly. There is no need to worry about fulfillment either.

So this is a different situation than going to CHINA for production.

Yeah ... I am still working on my own PRICES/COSTS too. There is a cost associated with this type of production... But for DIRECT-TO-CONSUMER ... This is a different ballpark than Chinese production...

Like @Jay103 (Jason) said 40% markup is a REASONABLE discount for KS Pricing. Stores expect 50% ... So you give KS Backers the benefit of a 10% discount... That's reasonable and enough. But you still need to work with your pricing to be the right MULTIPLIER (5x, 7x or higher).

The goal is to ensure you MAKE some monies too!

terzamossa
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Jay103 wrote:Didn't realize

Jay103 wrote:
Didn't realize the monsters had standees.. I thought they were just represented by the card. Huh.

I paid around $0.018 per plastic card stand, as a comparison point. Think it was $0.80 for 45 units in a plastic bag. Doesn't sound like you'd need more than 15 of them, though.

I must admit I don't have a break down of costs for all components, only for a few variants of mats layout (making double layered, custom punched mats is awfully expensive for example and, having seen that, we won't do it). So I can't pinpoint what the price of those is.

I assume a lot of the additional cost with respect to your calculation was the 6 punchboards with all tokens and standees (2 different die-cut patterns) and the plastic tray. Also we have 300 cards (75 mini) not sure if you considered that many...in any case, we are totally open to check other manufacturers of course, but as I said the final cost we had was very similar to other games with similar components. Probably a cheaper manufacturer could get it $1 down, which would mean $5 for backers...it's not massive on the overall cost.

PS their minimum order number is 1500 I think, it gets to 2500 only because of the custom plastics. I checked resin casting somewhere else but above 800 units it gets cheaper to produce 2500 and burn the remaining units (though I would feel bad about it, I give you that!) also having them produced where the rest of game is, simplifies all logistics...working in biotech, I had first hand experience in making custom plastics with both expensive manufacturers and cheaper local ones (still with 20+ years of experience, and I could go talking to them weekly, great people and all). I saw the results, I saw the time you can waste on solving problems that should have been prevented from the very start, and I don't think the saving is close to being worth the risk!

Jay103
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Quote:I assume a lot of the

Quote:
I assume a lot of the additional cost with respect to your calculation was the 6 punchboards with all tokens and standees (2 different die-cut patterns

Yes, I was assuming two punchboards with the tokens on them. If you have 30 monsters worth of standees, obviously that requires more.

My comparison point: Paid $1.00 for 4 8x10 double-sided punchout sheets with 3 different dies. Don't think there was a per-die cost added to that.. only the art setup. If there was, it wasn't much.

Assuming that by punchouts you mean this sort of thing:

https://boardgamegeek.com/image/4530889/heroes-treasure

Haven't played the game, so I guess I'm not really sure what the standees are for. Do they do more than just sit on the hex when you encounter them? Could they just be little tokens that sit flat? If you don't already have the art complete for them, you'll save a ton of money on that (if there's different art for each, etc.)

(And yeah, I miscounted the cards because I didn't notice the hero decks.. according to your manual, you have 80 map cards, 60 hero cards, and 135 mini cards)

(and you definitely want the whole thing produced by the same company!)

terzamossa
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Yes something very similar to this

it can't be too relevant to the version you saw as things changed between the V4 (for which we asked the quote) and the current V6...for now we have 4 characters up, while the quote was for 6 etc. Punchout things, yes, something close to your pic, but they had internal holes to hold tokens and were doublelayered (we are totally skipping that, way too expensive).
The standees are useful, you don't get use them when you fight with the monster: if you defeat one you can keep it as your "familio" to be your friendly monster. You can keep it close and use it as support for fighting or it can go around on its own and collect resources from the map (flipping the tokens on the map that represent interest points) in ways heroes can't...it is actually a cool part of the game :)
The art is indeed expensive, but overall we think of it as an investment, the more particular and good looking the product is, the easier it is going to be market it.
Let's hope we are right!

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