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Chess Variant with Cards

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Guest1
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I'm back. College student now. My life is kind of not what I'd like it to be on multiple fronts, but hey, I made another game, this time with complete creative freedom. The basic premise is that it's like chess, but you can choose your own pieces and there's resource management.

Also, there's monster girls because that's what I'm into. That's the theme. I'd appreciate hearing any thoughts, suggestions and criticisms about what I've created. It's rough, but I'm kind of proud of it and would like to improve it if I can.

Linked is the manual.
https://luciferspastime.neocities.org/Lucifers%20Pastime%20Manual.pdf

questccg
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Cool beans!

I saw quickly you were using HEXES as your "squares"... But if you are into Fantasy Chess... You might like "Loka":

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/138799/loka-game-elemental-strategy

I'd recommend checking it out... Just because the pieces are so COOL! And you must LIKE chess if you designed a "chess-variant" or something close to.

It's a unique game too... Where you choose WHAT pieces you want to play with also (so there are some similarities with your game).

As far as Monster Girls are concerned, who doesn't love risque Manga! Off the top and also drawn by girls too. I met an artist at a convention that was selling $0.05 stickers for $5.00 (for 3). Total profit margins but low volume. But she had cool looking art (Manga style). I may work with her one day (as an artist).

I READ your manual... Although I really hate reading manuals. Even my own... Urghhh! The worst thing ever is a Manual Drop! I'm not sure the Monster Girl cards are well explained. Like there are Hexes and Green, Gray or Red ones, sometimes BOTH Red and Gray, etc. You should at least explain the first card and then when there is something NEW to a card, also explain what's new to that card. Like two (2) color hexes, etc.

I'll re-read it a 2nd time... Just in the event that things are clearer on a 2nd pass.

Cheers...

Note #1: The FORMAT of the rulebook could be "improved" with better more habitual sections to make it just a bit clearer when reading it. There are things that are not obvious to me (as I have explained above). I'll take another look and comment again with improved formatting.

Guest1
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Thanks for taking a look at

Thanks for taking a look at it. I thought the text highlighting in the zones section would sufficiently explain the cards' information too. After a 2nd pass though your perception of that might change as you said.

Loka has a seemingly novel idea(apart from the standard, 4 element theme). It's out of stock on amazon, ebay, and its own website, although you can buy it from geekmarket if you live in Europe. The manual also isn't publicly available, so I can't picture how an actual game would look.

Off topic, but 5$ for stickers sounds kind of criminal to me. Conventions here are sadly more about companies advertising their stuff than fans gathering and sharing with each other, so what they do sell tends to just be knickknacks and individual drawings to advertise their art commission. In Japanese conventions like comiket, the main focus is doujin groups selling original manga, music and games, without content restrictions like conventions tend to have here for non-corporate attendees.

Most of the placeholder art in my manual was drawn by kenkou cross in case you were curious.

FrankM
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Was able to puzzle it out

Hi, I took a look at the rulebook, and though I was able to puzzle everything out in a single pass, the information can definitely be presented a little more clearly.

First, it wasn't obvious what orange hexes were in the movement diagrams. Do they need to be vacant to move through them toward a valid destination, or do pieces leap like a chess knight? Since there are no paths traced out, my initial guess would be leaping.

Second, I suggest putting the ritual requirement in the upper right corner to make it clear it's part of a card's cost.

Third, the artwork is just placeholder stuff and doesn't bother me, but there's currently a Thing going on with the cover art for Tiny Epic's latest game.

Fourth, is the asymmetry in the Red Oni's movement intentional?

Fifth, for pieces that only move forward or only move backward, there doesn't seem to be any notion of "pawn promotion" to get any further use out of them. The Ittan-Momen in particular can never move more than twice in an entire game.

Sixth, does a Slime Queen count as a "queen" for victory conditions?

Looks like an interesting game, best of luck with it!

Guest1
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Thank you for the comments

Thank you for the comments and suggestions. The beige hexes on the cards(same color as the board) do indicate leaping. One of my assumptions when making the game was that the player already knew the basics of chess(or some variant).

I guess it's better not to make that assumption and clarify movement more. Maybe I can add an extra explanation at the end with diagrams for people who have never played chess. People don't seem to like reading manuals, so lengthening it would be a trade off.

I'm not aware of what's going on with Tiny Epic. I didn't have any plans to publish this game for profit and I kind of doubt anybody would even be willing to publish it just based on the theme. I have thought about commissioning an artist to make original art.

The asymmetry of the red oni is a consequence of the onis being inspired by the gold and silver generals in shogi and my game using hexagons. The clunkiness also fits personality wise I think. After play testing I might change that.

I didn't want to put pawn promotion in because one of the main aspects of the game is that you can put pieces anywhere onto the board after your first turn. Ittan-Momen would be useless if you put it on the board during your first turn, but it might come in handy later on. Also, you can use soul swap to force your opponent to use a seemingly bad card like Ittan-Momen for the rest of the game instead of something obviously useful like apprentice.

Queen Slime is just a name(which I also borrowed from kenkou cross). I can see why that may cause confusion. I'll probably change it to something else.

FrankM
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One other question

It didn't hit me on the first read, but I also wasn't sure if something that can move multiple spaces in the same direction (slime queen again!) need unobstructed spaces, or leaps to its destination.

If you aren't worried about publishing the game, then don't worry about Tiny Epic. They got called out for using stuff one step removed from bikini armor, but no one is going to care what you commission for private use.

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That's a really good point. I

That's a really good point. I should look at how chess manuals explain movement since I intend that part to be same.

I'd like my game to be freely available to anyone interested in it, so I don't know if that can be called private use. Google didn't offer much information on the Tiny Epic thing, but people being bothered doesn't surprise me. Tiny Epic's demographic is on the younger side though, isn't it?

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I've updated the link in the

I've updated the link in the op to an updated manual with a section on how movement works. I hope the use of examples will make things unambiguous.

questccg
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I'm supposed to take a 2nd look at the rulebook... so

I'll take a look at the NEW version. Please remember, that when I make suggestions it is because RULEBOOKs have a SPECIFIC FORMAT and yours doesn't follow that format. And the reason I mention this is... Because even games like "Clue" or "The Game of Life" follow a very STRICT format which almost everyone in the business uses.

How do I know this to be TRUE???

Well I learnt the HARD WAY with my 2nd rulebook for "Tradewars" (now called TradeWorlds). I used "The Game Crafter" Sanity Check for my rulebook and the reviewer made many suggestions on how to STANDARDIZE my FORMAT into a version which is the GENERAL format for Table Top Games.

I used their services three (3) times, so $90 USD just spent on FIXING the format and ensuring everything looked RIGHT.

The reality is ONCE you design your FIRST rulebook using the correct format, the next ones will follow. At first it's hard to accept CHANGE, but if you realize that it is FOR THE BETTER, you get over your own format and realize that there is a bit of a "science" to how to WRITE your rulebook.

I had the time TODAY... We're all in lockdown anyways so I'm staying at home. I just was in the MOOD to read and review a rulebook. So I did it already (Yay!!!)

So please review the constructive critique at your own speed. Just give me some time to review and hopefully the "clouds" will part and you too will become "familiar" with the correct FORMAT.

Cheers!

questccg
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The FORMAT

Section #0: Table of Content

This can be omitted if there are not too many pages. But I would always include it because it helps direct people to different sections when they are looking for specific details about an aspect of the game.

Section #1: Introduction (The Game)

Briefly describe some kind of World-Building, Storyline or Introduction about the game itself.

Section #2: Game Components

Describe the nature of each component in the game. This covers your Game Board section and Player Materials. You should also list if there are any additional pieces like Miniatures, Pieces, Tokens, Dice, etc. Describe each and explain the exact quantity of each. This is to ensure that the players have all the pieces/parts required to play the game.

Section #3: Game Overview

Describe who is this game made for (Audience), the number of players, the minimum age, the time to play (per player to total), the genre and theme, and lastly the primary mechanic. You don't have this section and it is very important because it better explains WHO would like this game BEST!

Section #4: Game Layout

This is the visual of the Game Board and explanation of the Indices "A-K" and "1-11" ... I would RECOMMEND moving PART of the NOTATION section HERE (with the various Examples of TURNS).

Section #5: Card Anatomy

This is pushed before because it should have ONE (1) SAMPLE Card and describe all the aspects of the card. You could also explain the SPELL cards (sample too) and explain the card itself. This will go a great deal in understanding better the various cards LATER (in detail)...

Section #6: Pre-Game Setup

This section may not be required. But I think you mentioned at some point that you could CUSTOMIZE your pieces/tokens per game and maybe stating some examples would be good here. For example: Pieces A,B,C and Cards X, Y, Z and Spell K.

Section #7: Setup

How a game is to be prepared... What cards need to be shuffled (if any), are there any decks to shuffle too... What do you NEED to do BEFORE a game begins.

Section #8: Victory Conditions

This is where you TELL people HOW to WIN the game. This is usually one of the FIRST sections in a game rulebook. But you've seen all the content that your game will need BEFORE it. How do you win needs to be concisely explained and if there are multiple paths to victory, those too need to be listed in some shape or form. THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT SECTION.

Section #9: Sequence of Play

Explain HOW to PLAY the game. What is a TURN, how many turns in a ROUND. What are the steps to a TURN. Your MOVEMENT section should be in this section. And also your PLAYING THE GAME section should also be here. THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT SECTION TOO.

Section #10: Further explanation (some details)

Explain your ZONES and COLORS here...

Section #11: Your cards (more details)

Put your THE CARDS section here. And follow with SPELL CARDS next.

Section #12: Other rules (last section)

Put the OTHER RULES content here...

Section #13: Credits

Add a section describing the nature of WHO made the game (Game Designer), did the artwork (Artist/Illustrator), did the card design (Graphic Designer), your Developer (if present), your rulebook, your playtesters, etc.

Section #14: Index

Using KEYWORDS, create an index for all of the various terms in the rulebook such that players can more easily LOOK-UP information such as details about a specific KEYWORD which may appear on multiple pages. This section is OPTIONAL ... But I find it always makes for a more PROFESSIONAL rulebook.

So that's PER YOUR GAME. I reviewed YOUR RULEBOOK and gave you ALL 15 Sections that I recommend you have to having a more CLEAR and STANDARD rulebook.

Please note, that usually in many GAMES, VICTORY CONDITION and onwards are usually the FIRST SECTION AFTER the Game Components. But we've added a few sections BEFORE just to clarify the game ... And this is per my own document review... So don't worry if Victory Section is #8... It's all in the RIGHT ORDER.

Cheers!

Note #1 (To ALL Designers): Please take a look at this format and verify if I have made any errors. I'm pretty sure I covered everything ... But some sections may be misplaced (I'm like 90% this is a good fit for his rulebook) ... That last 10% is open to DEBATE and will require other Designer opinions! Many Thanks.

Note #2: Of course you NEED a COVER PAGE and BACK PAGE just to keep everything together... I omitted these because they are just good practices for writing manuals and books... So it goes without saying you definitely should ADD BOTH of these!

Guest1
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Thank you very much for this

Thank you very much for this guideline. I can see the logic behind it. I'll definitely take this advice into account when revising things again.

I don't know who my audience is actually. My assumption was that the audience would know who they are. Obviously that's not professional, but I don't expect or really intend to make money from this. I would like some people to play it though.

As for physical pieces, both players would need 123 figurines in total for every combination of piece types possible. Kind of a lot. My plan was to eventually make this into a computer game and for people to primarily play it like that. Improving the presentation is definitely something I want, but right now the gameplay is more of my focus.

questccg
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No problemo

You can see that it starts with more BROAD information (General info) and goes into more SPECIFIC information (Detailed info) as you go on further into the rulebook. That was a format TAILORED to YOUR "rulebook" (but based on the STANDARD FORMAT).

Again some of the choices like putting "Card Anatomy" in Section #5 ... Is just because there may be Pre-Game or Setup related to CARDS ... And presenting the CARD FORMAT will ensure more clarity when reading the later sections.

Cheers!

Note #1: I firmly believe "Card Anatomy" in Section #5 is correct. Because all you are presenting is A SAMPLE of EACH TYPE of card in your game. And if your "Pre-Game Setup" involves choosing CARDS, the earlier section lends well in understand WHAT it is that you are "customizing". You'll be presented with all the CARD TYPES and therefore more familiar with HOW to customize in the pre-game setup...

I know to some it may seem ODD ... That it is before the "Victory Conditions" and it could be potentially placed AFTER Section #9: Sequence of Play"... But again because there is an ELEMENT of "Customization", understanding the nature of the customization and components attached to this means that I stick by it being in Position #5...

questccg
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You're answering your own questions

Guest1 wrote:
...I don't know who my audience is actually...

Audience could be "Casual Chess Players" and the theme is "Monster Girls"... Cool!!! Nothing too complicated to be worried about. You explained it TO US. It was just a matter of finding the right place to SHARE that information with the world.

And another point was... You mentioned LOKA not having a Rulebook on their BGG page. That SUCKS! Because it doesn't allow you to have a look at how the game is played to determine if the game is FOR YOU or not...!

The "Game Overview" explains things like NUMBER OF PLAYERS (2), TIME TO PLAY, MINIMUM AGE (12+), GENRE (Chess Variant), THEME (Monster Girls), GAME MECHANICS (Hexagon Grid/Static Capture/Pattern Movement/Variable Setup), AUDIENCE (Casual Chess Players). Important things about the makeup of an audience. That section is before "Victory Conditions" because it HELPS people understand... Is this the GAME for ME???

X3M
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I needed this

questccg wrote:

Note #1 (To ALL Designers): Please take a look at this format and verify if I have made any errors. I'm pretty sure I covered everything ... But some sections may be misplaced (I'm like 90% this is a good fit for his rulebook) ... That last 10% is open to DEBATE and will require other Designer opinions! Many Thanks.

If I were to use this list. Some sections would remain empty for sure.
Also, my goal is to have a 1 page for rules kind of game this time. More of that later. But I will surely attempt with this little guideline.

Guest1
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I've finished programming a

I've finished programming a computer client for the game. My website has a link to it.
https://luciferspastime.neocities.org/

terzamossa
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Hello, I read your rulebook

Hello,
I read your rulebook today and the general idea seems cool :)

I'll give you a couple of ideas on the game itself (to be taken with a massive pinch of salt, as I haven't played it, so my opinion is worth NOTHING).
-I would consider taking a bit more distance from chess and consider the game more of a simplified skirmish game. This fits the theme being less abstract and spares you a few huge criticism that chess players will make on anything that resembles chess.
-Why not removing the spell cards and instead including some of the powers within the pieces themselves? This makes the game more component-lean and avoids distracting players with a hand of cards which doesn't seem to be the main focus in any case. Also this increases how thematic the different pieces are e.g. maybe nobody can move close to the slime queen after she captured a piece, because of the slimy mess around her. (bad example probably, but you see my point :) )
-your recruitment system with 200 mp is not really explained and it seems to me (without having played) another extra thing that can be removed, also because it removes value from your sacrifice/summoning system which could be quite cool. You could simply have a pool of basic units you can choose, I don't know, 8 from + a queen and then you only get cooler pieces by sacrificing what you have. Connecting to what I said before, this could be tied up to specific unit features, for examples some of them may be weaker but may allow you to summon another unit for free if they capture a piece, or if 2 of them are closer etc.
-The entry barrier to your game is definitely learning how to move those pieces, which you are solving by making a videogame basically :) I cannot advice you there and this is a board game design forum, so I'll not take this option into account :) I would suggest you to use hexagonal tokens for the pieces and print the movement pattern on top of them. If you think this removes too much from the flavor of the game (and you would be right) you could use this trick only for the training set, and players can then swap this tokens for the proper miniatures/standees once they're comfortable with them (and play even with a mix, so that when they get a new unit they don't freak out too much).

What I wrote so far is just food for thoughts and you don't need to address it unless it solves problems you noticed in playtesting. What I write below is real feedback, and you should most likely address it :)

Several parts of the rulebook are very very confusing.
As mentioned by someone before, taking something from a chess rulebook may be your best option for everything not novel.
Movement is where I had the most problems, I solved a couple of them, I am still not sure at all about others:
-When you read the movement chapter, having an example of how enemies/allies modify a piece's movement path, without having seen the original/unmodified path is very confusing. Please show them both, also state clearly what is what. I got that white letters and black letters represent the 2 factions, but I had to pay extra attention for this, which just makes going through the rulebook a worse experience.
-When you show the movement paths piece by piece, I assumed (maybe I am wrong) that red spaces are where you can capture another piece? Therefore when spaces are are red/green you can both capture and move there? but isn't moving on the space the way in which you capture? Maybe you can only move there If capturing?
Still unclear to me and I may be totally off. Maybe it is explained somewhere, in this case please make it more relevant for distracted readers!
-when I see hexagonal spaces I intuitively think that the same pattern of movement can be used in all 6 directions, which is clearly not the case at all. I would propose adding a directional arrow pointing towards the enemy front any time you represent spaces, so that people can visualize how this would work on the board. (initially I thought you were representing white to the left and black to the right, while I guess they are above and below).
Not having any reference point on the board is a bit weird, in chess you have 2 colors alternating, with hexagons is definitely harder to do, still I would consider thinking about something there.

Hope any of this is useful and in any case, good luck!
Antonio

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Thank you Antonio, I

Thank you Antonio, I appreciate your feedback.

Honestly I didn't know what a skirmish game was until now. When designing the game, my mindset really was to complicate chess in a few ways, but not too many. I'd be interested to see what huge criticisms chess players would have.

I feel like some of the things you pointed out have to do with our diverging experiences, which is very legitimate since I can't expect others to have the same prior information as me. Limiting mp to 200 was done for instance, because otherwise I feel games could stretch out for too long and/or make the game too easy.

Shogi has a similar system of placing pieces on the board anywhere, but players are limited to what they captured and the total number of pieces in the game never changes. Here this isn't the case. I figured since shogi limited how much "summoning" could be done, it would be a good idea to do the same in mine somehow. The number 200 is pretty much arbitrary, but I hoped wouldn't too large or too small.

Board orientation is likewise not indicated in shogi. Only the relative position of players is shown, and there's only 2 sides to a board as in chess. Probably unlike you, I haven't played many games with hexagons in them, so I can't relate to the assumption that direction would be circular. Movement works pretty much exactly like in chess, just with six directions, but I may have overestimated how familiar people are with that. I actually tried to make it more straightforward than chess by explaining things with "paths" and "leaps".

The unmodified movement is shown on every card, but those come after, so putting diagrams of the unmodified movement makes sense and I'll get on that. The red spaces are no summoning zones and have nothing to do with capturing. That's written in the zone chapter, but perhaps I should emphasize it more by including a chapter that demonstrates summoning. In any case, my video game makes it very clear where pieces can and can't move at any given time. Players just drag pieces and exactly where they can move changes color to green.

terzamossa
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Hi, thanks a lot for

Hi,
thanks a lot for clarifying the rules, I had read about no summoning zones, but then I forgot completely by the time I got to the movement section.

I played chess extensively, participated in some local competitions as a kid and keep playing online often enough, so please don't consider my comments as coming from somebody not acquainted with chess :) Simply there are many games around and the hexagonal grid switched my brain to a more "pan-directional" mode.

I am fine with all your points, just not sure my point on MP came across right: I do appreciate you added it to balance the game, and obviously you need something to balance. In shogi, as you say, this is done just having limited pieces: Therefore players do not need to keep anything else in mind, if there are pieces they can do it, otherwise they can't.
My problem with the mp is players focused on playing the game and at the same time keeping track somehow of mp on a side of the board (shogi players don't have a decreasing number of "magical stones" used only to check if they can still "summon" or not). If the same balancing effect could be obtained just through sacrifices or some clever positioning of pieces the board itself, you would still balance (as you can't sacrifice forever, and your opponent will prevent some of your positioning) but you would avoid diluting the attention of the players away from the board. In my opinion anything that attracts you outside of the board ruins the immersion and slows down the game.
Once again, in a video game this is less relevant, as mp are counted automatically...still I think that summoning through mp consumption is not going to be any satisfying if compared to something triggered on the board. This would strengthen some mechanics, like the sacrifice one, which you already have in the game. I am not adding anything new to it, my suggestion is to have all the system work through the key mechanics instead of adding a numerical counter to balance some parts of it!

We can disagree of course, this was just to make my point clear, until playing 5-6 games I don't think I could give an accurate evaluation of whether I am totally off or not!

Cheers,
Antonio

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Thanks again for elaborating.

Thanks again for elaborating. I see your point when it comes to distracting from the board. Part of the game was inspired by trading card ones. Magic the Gathering has mana, and Yugioh has life points they expect people to use a calculator to keep track of. I don't know how comparable this is to that though.

Your idea of having to use base units to summon any more powerful ones is interesting. However, I think mp allows a greater degree of freedom since if somebody chose to, they could avoid using any base units at all. I wouldn't want to lock players into a certain way of playing. The first turns where people set up their initial position would be complicated too.

It's definitely food for thought though. I'll try finding people to play test it and tell me how they feel about the system.

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