# Dual Dice - Multi-Purpose Designer dice Pre-Launch

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let-off studios
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Joined: 02/07/2011
Just Backed It!

Best of success on your campaign, questccg! :)

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
Cool beans!

let-off studios wrote:
Best of success on your campaign, questccg! :)

Awesome... It's going to be a matter of seeing how many Backers I can get in the 1st 48 hours (100 or more... TBD!) We'll have to wait and see... Every one Backer counts... Cheers!

P.S.: Nice to see that you're back around. Your voice and opinion counts over here on BGDF.com!

pelle
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Joined: 08/11/2008
I saw the image and

I saw the image and spreadsheet (no video yet?).

I like the look of the dice. It is too bad that you only show the symmetric sides. It took me some time to figure out what you were doing, and only by studying the spreadsheet. I think some kind of explanation would be helpful.

If the image had shown some of the other sides that might also have helped a bit. It was confusing to only see sides with 2, 4, 6 dots on. Probably looks better than to include asymmetric sides, but there could have been a second image to show more sides?

The calculations A+B and A-B to get a d2 and a d3 was... clever, I think. But also a bit awkward. Just rolling a regular D6 seems easier than having to do the addition or subtraction of dots. An impressive little mathematical trick to get the number of dots to add up in those ways and still be a d6.

The one distribution that is not trivial on a regular d6 is the multiplication, so if some game could use that I guess the die would be useful, especially if the same game also needs one of the other distributions (otherwise it could just use a die with the sides pre-multiplied).

You mention Fudge/FATE, but not sure how to use it with those games? You need effectively sides that are -1, 0, and 1 (or 1d3-2) for that. What was the idea you had for that? Are the sides marked in some non-obvious ways to be + or -?

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
There is a Video, near the end!

pelle wrote:
I saw the image and spreadsheet (no video yet?).

Watch the Video in the Reviews section ... For actual Video of prototypes!

pelle wrote:
You mention Fudge/FATE, but not sure how to use it with those games? You need effectively sides that are -1, 0, and 1 (or 1d3-2) for that. What was the idea you had for that? Are the sides marked in some non-obvious ways to be + or -?

Use the D3 topmost value for Fudge/FATE: 1=-1, 2=0 and 3=1 (so yeah 1d3-2). It's not perfect but it does work. I've got some ppl that will be willing to help out with some more "boosts" so we'll see what THEIR impact will be on the KS.

Cheers!

Note #1: I knew 94 was not going to be enough Followers ... But hey ... I'm in the thick of it ... And I will reach out to more people soon enough too!

BTW they are "Dual" Dice ... Meaning that each side has 2 Faces. And it's not so much about me being the designer, I also agree that the assessment of having dice that do more that just what a NORMAL/Standard D6 does ... really add value to this design.

Not that everyone agrees and such... But I'd rather carry these around than your normal D6s ... The Clever-ness of the dice comes from "my dream" and a thanks for another Designer's Game that provided the inspiration!

Note #2: The explanation of HOW I was inspired by the dream is the first thing you read on the KS page. Like I said, in the dream, I was playing ANOTHER "Designer's" Game... And as I looked at the play area, I saw "Dual Dice" in play. And to finish off the dream, I held ONE (1) of these dice in between my thumb and index fingers. That was the last memory of the dream, seeing EXACTLY what the dice looked like.

It was pretty vivid and crystal clear on HOW the dice should be designed! Anyhow a few more tidbits of information... You heard it HERE on BGDF.com first! (LOL)

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
I personally LIKE the LOOK of the dice...

I'm not a Snake-Oil Salesman. Yes the dice has multiple functions... But TO ME, the LOOK and DESIGN of the dice to me is very "clever" and "innovative". If you asked me to "design" a dice with PIPS that is compatible with standard D6s and allows for D3 and D2 ... I would definitely tell you I'd PERSONALLY would rather BUY this kind of dice over any D6s in any game.

To me, I see them as a "Work-of-Art" not just a mathematical model. I find the design PLEASING to the eyes and sufficiently ABSTRACT that at first glance you think to yourself: "Ok ... These dice a WEIRD... Wonder how they work?"

I like the weird-ness of design, I think it is very ELEGANT! Unfortunately I will probably not be getting a BOOST from an engineering buddy ... Because he can't comprehend the "design" and feels like the dice bring nothing NEW! To each his own, and I couldn't disagree with him more.

But that is the nature of KS and a numbers game that it looks like I cannot WIN. Too bad ... The dice deserve more merit and funding.

In any event, at least I can SAY that I DESIGNED them! Or more less "God Designed them" or "the Machine" designed them... Or my "subconscious mind" did ... Whatever you believe. I'm going to get a BOOST on Wednesday and we'll see how things evolve this first WEEK!

Cheers.

pelle
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Joined: 08/11/2008
I also found the idea clever

I also found the idea clever and innovative. It was elegant how you could make a d2 and a d3 by adding and subtracting the same sets of numbers.

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
Thanks @pelle!

The usual method by which people normally fund is OVER! The first 48 hours are done and ... we now have ten (10) KS Backers.

So this is very un-fateful but the odds of success look to be over ATM. But I might get some more Backers in the next couple of days.

But like a friend said: "10 or 20 is the same thing, TBH...!" Anyways we'll keep some hope alive in that maybe we might get some traction later on this week.

Cheers!

Note #1: Far gone are the days where you can launch a campaign and easily earn 100 to 200 Backers with some FB marketing. That landed me with about 100 Followers which lead to a 5% conversion rate ATM. So under 10 Backers.

Again I will get a BOOST from my Publisher (OLG) and we'll see if that changes anything. Maybe get +10 more Backers ... But still nothing to push me towards a successful campaign!

Red_Rook
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Joined: 10/30/2021
Cool

Now the cloud of mystery has dissipated. The idea you came up with (or discovered in your dream) is a really interesting one. Good luck with the campaign.

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
Well it's not very cool how things are unfolding...

With about a 15% conversion rate with 14 Backers so far, the campaign is NOT COOL at all. From the 100 or so Followers, there have been minimal pledging and it looks like "Dual Dice" will NOT Fund. It is regretful, because I was hoping that initially 1,000 or so Backers would have produced 100 to 200 Followers and then when I ended up in the lower portion of those expectations (with 94 Followers)...

I really thought that those 100 or so Followers were going to translate to actual Backers and then maybe we'd have a shot at maybe 100 to 200 Backers!

But that is clearly NOT the case... As it's only about 15% from Followers to converted to Backers. I'm exploring other avenues and am maybe considering doing a RE-BOOT with better presentation, more graphics and even maybe an animated video to make the "offer" more SEXY!

But we'll have to WAIT and SEE! Things are far from over... At least in my own boat... I don't know about the sinking Titanic!

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
What I am wondering about now...

Is had I revealed the Design EARLIER, if I would have gotten 94 Followers!?

Seems like most of the Followers were curious to see what the Dice would look like and not necessarily buy into the dice for their collection or gaming purposes. Again, no worries... I honestly would have hoped for a better reception ... But it's not yet the end for "Dual Dice".

I still have a couple avenues to explore. And like I said, maybe with some better graphics and an animated video... Some more "sexiness" (as my previous boss explained) that might make a difference.

But TBH I've found products with similar amounts of images and similar goals and they did just fine. Maybe because I live outside of the USA!? Who knows...???

We'll see how things evolve in the other avenues department. Sincerely.

pelle
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Joined: 08/11/2008
Have you considered including

Have you considered including them in a game first? Even if the game only sells low numbers it would at least showcase the dice and maybe make people start think about other ways they can be used when you make them available as a separate product?

I'm thinking about Fudge/FATE dice that became popular, as I understand it, because of Fudge (that started out as a free RPG designed by members on some online forum and was not necessarily a big commercial success, but enough to make the dice well-known?).

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
I agree with you 100%

pelle wrote:
Have you considered including them in a game first? Even if the game only sells low numbers it would at least showcase the dice and maybe make people start think about other ways they can be used when you make them available as a separate product?

Indeed ... The Dream I had was about ANOTHER Game Designer's GAME! As I explained in the Dream we were playing his game and there were "Dual Dice". But the next day when I visited his BGG page, I saw similar pictures with NORMAL D6s.

So yeah, this is one avenue. I've also reached out to a DICE Company in the USA... To see what they think. I'll give them a week to react and then I'll try another DICE Company... Got a couple leads. And even if they are cold calls ... They are REAL leads (meaning that there are stories behind them...)

pelle wrote:
I'm thinking about Fudge/FATE dice that became popular, as I understand it, because of Fudge (that started out as a free RPG designed by members on some online forum and was not necessarily a big commercial success, but enough to make the dice well-known?).

Like I said, there are other avenues than Kickstarter. Since I'm not a sales person, I know of someone who is ... And they might want to help for a 50% share in sales (profitability minus costs and expenses). I'm an honest guy, I won't cheat them out of their fair share.

However "Dual Dice" are NOT over. Even if we are a one (1) product company ... We could have like 16 SKUs just to START with. In terms of potential. But I would initially go with 3 SKUs...

So we'll need to wait until I get some responses (if they do respond) and then take it from there. Honestly, I hoping to get some "seed" money in 2022...

Thank you for all your interest... I really do appreciate it!

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
Dual Dice are not yet ... over (for sure)!

TBH I know people have been telling me they think the dice are CLEVER but maybe do not "resonate" well with your "average" gamer. Meaning that the dice are COOL and all... But they are very "technical". So while these kind of "Designer" dice are neat and interesting to a "Board Game Design Group", that may be a group which is more "experienced" and seasoned with playing board games and/or also have experience DESIGNING them too, your average gamers may not know what to do with them!

So maybe a DICE Company would be better suited for PROMOTING and producing these dice because that is "what they do": design and promote dice!

The other avenue is making an EXPANSION for an existing game as per the actual Dream that I had. I'm going to explore this as my LAST "alternative". Why???

Well because it's another Designer's "Baby" and there may be some resistance even if my Dream had my dice being used in their own design... People can be sensitive to suggestions about HOW to "improve" their OWN game with the help of an expansion that uses "Dual Dice".

Other avenues include me MAKING the dice and partnering with a sales person to sell around 300 units or so. This also sounds more realistic and maybe good for about 100 or so stores in my local area. We'll have to see if I can get this one to take off or not!

But like I said, there are several different PATHS that can still be followed. We'll just have to see which one is next and what the end result truly is!

Cheers.

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
Well the Dual Dice KS campaign has ENDED!

Unfortunately we only got 20 Backers and just over \$500 CAD. Which was a real poor turn out. I've learned a couple of things and I am glad for this.

1. It's hard to get Backers when you only get 100 Followers.

2. Waiting to find people on Kickstarter ... is no longer possible.

3. There are hundreds of campaigns launched each and every day.

Those are three (3) important lessons. In the future, I will aim to get MORE Followers given a longer marketing campaign, I will rely on thousands of people and not just 100 (for my next project). And I will hope to spread the word more organically as possible. Meaning not intrusive Facebook Ads that give me the impression that I am a Troll looking for people.

I know they call it "publicity", I call it "trolling" (as in trying to post on forums trying to elicit some kind of reaction to the dice)... Feels bad and it is not at all effective either!

And so we live and learn... Too bad though. Following up on another lead, I got a negative from "Dice Company #1" and "Dice Company #2" I will wait to contact and see what they think. But I added a Banner to BGDF.com because they offer a 10% commission off any sales through the website. So that Banner was a good idea even if ATM there is limited traffic.

Perhaps the better idea would be to WAIT until TradeWorlds is fulfilled and that is what I am doing before LAUNCHING my next game... People want to be reassured that OLG will deliver as promised on TradeWorlds. Maybe once this is done and people really enjoy playing... Maybe then they might be more receptive to another (NEW) game!

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
What is in the pipeline... For Dual DIce.

A few strategies to try include the following:

1. Reach out to the second (2nd) Dice Company and see what they think!

2. Instead of before Crystal Heroes (CH), plan a KS AFTER Crystal Heroes.

3. Wait until after TradeWorlds is delivered and people are happy.

4. Reach out to the game designer that was in the dream using the dice.

5. See if other dice producers may be interested in the concept.

6. Try to see if a Local Distributor will sell to some stores.

7. Negotiate some kind of revenue sharing with a sales representative.

Right now those are my options, a bit in chronological order (from most probable to least probable). There is a definite plan of attack here... Just need to wait until the dust settles and continue on with the dice journey. This is of course a serial list of possible efforts towards educating more people about Dual Dice (DD). For now, DD is taking a bit of a breather and I am focusing on CH since I plan to really market the cr@p out of CH!

Cheers.

let-off studios
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Joined: 02/07/2011
These Dice Need a Game

After some thought, I think you should have a game (or two) to pitch for Kickstarter, and feature your dice as unique components.

I suspect (as in, I'm simply speculating here) that dice companies turned you down because there's no game that's ready to use your dice. They didn't want to manufacture a bunch of dice that will sit on their shelves because there's no game that uses them right now.

I suggest you develop a game that uses those dice exclusively (or maybe contact that other designer to develop one for/with you) before you try to launch a campaign for these again.

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
Hmm... That is a valid point

Here's what I am thinking. After TW... The world is anew. And I have an expansion idea for TW called "Smugglers Run". I thought the Tactical Core was going to come to fruition first... But alas, with Mike's passing not so. So the other expansion called "Smugglers Run" is all about "Space Pirates".

There is not too much to this expansion:

1. A few PIRATE Characters

2. Game Chips for collecting and amassing Loot

And that was pretty much it. But maybe I could somehow introduce "Dual Dice" as a variable POWER for the pirates. Like before an attack, you roll a DD and see how that alters your stats: Top = Firepower, Bottom = Resistance. Could be a "cunning" roll check.

Obviously the HIGHER you roll the better (with +3/+3) but the worst case scenario can be horrible (with +1/+0) and leave you in harms way. Or room to have multiple ships attacking one pirate. Even +3/+3 might be not enough in some cases but in others it may save the day!

So I am HONESTLY thinking about using DD in a TW Expansion. That would be one (1) Game.

The second game, I'm not quite 100% sure yet. I guess I would need to be more knowledgeable on the Game... I did a bit of a quick read tonight and it seems like my "ideas" around DD seem to actually WORK!

But understanding the game can give me something to better "pitch" this game designer/self-publisher. Maybe in January 2022... I might approach them. I already have embryonic ideas about HOW to use the dice (sort of like "subclassing"). This is kind of an RPG-focused type of game. So if you have a normal dice with values 1 to 6 for Strength (RED) you could instead have a DD die with a split between Black and RED (Strength), each one of your RED dice earns +? (depending on the value of the DD). So if you had "+1/+0" that would be the lowest possible outcome and earn you +1 Strength and that's it. But if you had for instance a "+2/+1", your Strength would be +2 and all other RED dice would earn +1 bonus.

Like I said a bit embryonic ... Because I'm not sure HOW to PLAY the game. I have a good idea about the general ideas to the game. But not sure about details in how the stats and dice all come together. I will read the rulebook over the holidays.

Although I "think" my embryonic ideas have merit ... I'll confirm this over the holidays. So you sacrifice on one attribute (like Strength) but the ALL the other stats with RED dice get a boost. It's actually pretty clever TBH...

More research needs to be done to see how this "clever-ness" actually MAY come together.

But I agree ... a couple games with this could be of MUCH value...