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Political Rivalry - Worker Placement Game Feedback Request

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Mon, 06/27/2022 - 14:31
#31
JayProducer
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questccg wrote:Take for

questccg wrote:
Take for example Ireland. There are currently 20 Cube locations. What if you were to SPLIT this up into smaller groups of Cubes. And then you could have that the island is reachable by PLANE or BOAT... But then once on the island you could travel by CAR... To indicate which portion of Ireland you are currently campaigning in.

With a LARGER board, you can make these "sub-divisions" clearer and offer MORE in terms of locations to "travel to".

And then it makes the movement Tokens more "valuable" if you limit them in their quantity.

JayProducer wrote:
With the action selection, the only way I can see it working is to use action tokens, where players select two each turn and the other players cannot use the same ones, however can use a travel token to follow, with the travel icon matching both action tokens.

Give me an example so that I better understand your explanation...

There are couple of ides you have suggested worth exploring:

- There are a fixed number of actions that may be taken. Each action has a "Action Token" for a specific purpose. Player in order choose to perform an "Action" by selecting from the available pool of "Action Tokens".
Maybe some Actions may have multiple "copies" like 3x Drive Action Tokens, 2x Fly Action Tokens and 1x Boat Action Token. - I will look into this and try and playtest this idea instead of using meeples to place their actions.

- The idea above splitting the regions into more sub sections could work, however as the US side is like that I wanted to make the UK side a little different so will have a think about this.

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Mon, 06/27/2022 - 15:09
#32
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questccg wrote:1. If a

questccg wrote:
1. If a sub-division is connected by LAND, you may use a ROAD Travel Token to get to it (movement).

2. In order to use a PLANE Travel Token, you must either access a sub-division that it 4 or 5 ROAD Tokens away or 1 BOAT Token away (again this would need to be playtested more... It's just an example ATM).

3. Boat requires you to move by "Ferry" from one LAND MASS to another when separated by water.

I think this is a good idea, but it would add more complexity to the game though. Splitting into regions would work the same way as the US side. If I used an action selection then traveling might not work. The idea I had was there are 3 rows of action token;

- One row for the regions to place voting cubes
- One row for the general actions
- One row for travel tokens - but I haven't thought out yet how this would work using a travel token. The only way I can think of is that you still have a meeple to represent your party who is visually on the map to see where he/she is, so to move them to another region you need to use a travel token as an action first to then be able to trigger another action in that region.

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Mon, 06/27/2022 - 15:15
#33
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questccg wrote:Page #14:

questccg wrote:
Page #14: Using your "Special Ability", in the example it says:

Quote:
The cube is discarded and they must now decide to either move a current cube up the influence track for any region by +1 space or pay 5k to move up +3 spaces.

Where does the 5k come from??? It's not indicated on the Ability or anywhere else from what I can understand?!

I haven't been able to understand this... As I move through the rules, I am to make low amount of suggestions but offer high amount of impact! The REGIONS is very local changes (with a bigger board allowing more flexibility there) and the Action Selection ... Which I am waiting for an example to understand your response!

Feel free to respond at your own pace.

The 5k comes from your office work. That is specified in the rule book and on the icon. The extra 15k you can get is classified as scandal dealings. With action selection, the player would turn the token over so all players know that action has been taken and cannot be used again that round. Therefore there will be a pool of action tokens availbale for all players.

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Mon, 06/27/2022 - 15:27
#34
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Fri wrote:I took a look at

Fri wrote:
I took a look at most of the rule book. I had some thoughts that i will share. Feel free to disregard use or improve upon. Good luck with your game.

On Page 3 under 4 "sides" is confusing because it could be interpreted as players, could you use country instead?

The green party cards on pages 2 and 4 are different.

Could you make the round table a rectangular table, with the president/prime Minister either on the short end that is on the right or bottom. This would reinforce that the table is filled in either from left to right or top to bottom.

Like questccg I thought the travel mechanism was not quite carrying it weight in the game. There are a lot of potential fixes out there. The one I thought of was to just remove it to streamline the game.

Here is a possible simpler an near equivalent way for turn order. The player with the highest influence on any track is the first player. Ties are determined by a players second, third etc. highest influence markers. If still tied current play order is the tie breaker. Also if the tracks where one row high and stacked them you could easily determine player order.

Can you add some additional symbol to the regions to help the color blind? Ticket to ride does this on the train cards.

On page 24, for points 1 and 3. I think that an "on the influence track" is missing.

Could you make token color independent of political party? This is so that players can choose the preferred color, regardless of the party they are playing. It also allows the addition of extra parties to the game. If need be you can give players a token to identify that they are playing that color. This may mean that green party should be renamed.

Hi Fri,

Thank you for your feedback, much appreciated.

- I have updated the word on "sides" to "both versions".
- All arts work will be updated once completed, so aware that a lot will need re-done :)
- Was the numbering on the heads around the table not clear enough? I liked the looks of the round table verse a rectangle table, and the people will still be sitting in a circle of sorts.
- I agree either removing traveling or making it more tactical is the way forward.
- Both ways for turn order can work, however, if players add up the total of their influence on the tacker this will take just 10 seconds and avoid too many ties. If we go with just the highest one then this is likely to cause more ties (and known through playtesting as I found many times people had the same level of influence, but different in total amounts). Both will work, bit I think the total of influence works best, but I will certainly try yours out through playtesting.
- That's a great idea adding in symbols. I am color blind myself so appreciate how different coour scheming is. I wrote a blog about this: https://pixygamesuk.blogspot.com/2019/04/colour-blindness-guide-for-boar... The idea of adding in a 5th party was so players can take out either the green/blue/black/red dependent on colour blindness they are associated with, and will then balance it out. I will certainly add in symbols.
- Will take a look at page 24 and sort this out. Thank you.

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Mon, 06/27/2022 - 17:12
#35
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Page #11, Turn-Order is out-of-whack...!

JayProducer wrote:
The 5k comes from your office work.

Well it is CONFUSING because on the Card Ability it says FOR FREE ... Not at a cost of 5k...! So why would I need to pay $5k if the card says I can use twice that action for free??? This is on Page #14, Section: "Using your special ability".

Other noteworthy considerations:

1. Yes you would need to have ONE (1) Meeple to symbolize the Party Leader who is moving around the UK to the various areas. You no longer need two (2) meeples and with regards to the board and theme, one (1) meeple is enough to keep track in what location the Party Leader is in.

2. The determining the round order is confusing. This is on Page #11.

Again don't think that I could read your game rules from start to finish and say something like: "Your rulebook looks fine."

But I'm actually trying to understand the rules and for me there is way too much complexity.

This ROUND computation is NOT obvious. The fact that you have TWO (2) positions for each Party ... is VERY confusing. Sorry... Again I'm not trying to be critical or anything like that. It's just much too confusing. Why?

Because Blue is 1st (Both Tokens -- No???!!!), Why is Green before Black and Yellow if they all have "7"??? I really don't get it. Again sorry, I like things that are clear and SIMPLE to comprehend.

I would INSTEAD use something like the following:

questccg wrote:
1. The "Influence Tracker" determines the order of play.

2. If there are any TIES, the "Total number of Votes" determines which players go before the other(s).

See how SIMPLE something like that is??? And you don't need to look at an image which is INCORRECT on Page #11 ... Because it doesn't make sense why Green and Black should both go BEFORE Yellow and please explain why Yellow is both LAST?!?!?!

Man I don't know how @Fri got through the rules so fast... There are so many issues with just Page #11 "Turn Order".

Again I'm not being critical ... I'm just TRYING to UNDERSTAND!!! And I'm failing at getting how the IMAGES suit the order that you have determined!!!

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Mon, 06/27/2022 - 17:19
#36
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Furthermore...

I think that Page #11 should be a SIMPLE "Turn-Order" and what can be done IN-ORDER of when the various things that can be done ... And THEN go into explaining each item. Right now, I was on Page #16 and had to go back to Page #11 ... Because I wasn't feeling like I was UNDERSTANDING the rules.

Page #11 should be something:

questccg wrote:
The following is a summary of the various steps that may be played on a Player's Turn.

1. [Required] Select a Travel Token and move your Meeple to the destination of your choice.

2. [Required] Select a Campaign Action Token which matches the Action that you want to do on this turn.

...

Something like that SIMPLE and UNDERSTANDABLE... Again I'm not trying to be super-critical... I'm just trying to understand how your game is to be played.

I'll wait for more replies before moving forwards. Cheers!

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Wed, 06/29/2022 - 13:54
#37
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Waiting for your comments and feedback...

I hope I understood correctly the explanation of the turn-order and then how the image is inaccurate towards that order...?!

I will await your return to continue to comment and wait for your feedback.

The real issue is that we only have the UK Board, so it is impossible to comment about a US Board because ATM none exists. I still strongly feel that the UK board should be divided into more regional areas, making travel more RELEVANT!

Like I suggested in the rules, you take one Travel Token and MOVE to the desired area/region and then you take one Campaign Action Token which decides what kind of action you want to play at that location.

This was not RANDOM... Although I have not gotten through all the rules to fully expand on all the steps to a Player's Turn. You can of course help with this and reply with some additional information concerning the turn-order.

Cheers.

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Sat, 07/02/2022 - 04:46
#38
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Will take a look at your

Will take a look at your comments during the week as I off to London this weekend. Will respond with my thoughts. I have already started doing an action selection board where you will have a 3 rows of 3. At the end the round you move the rows down and last one goes back to the top, and turns over where the order of actions changes. Each side is different and each layout is different so it gives each player a different strategy. The idea is that when you make a selection, your next one must be of the same row or column.

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Sun, 07/03/2022 - 16:06
#39
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Here is the updated map of

Here is the updated map of the UK, split into regions:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m90v4498lmvvanz/6th%20Design%20Pub.jpg?dl=0

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Sun, 07/03/2022 - 16:48
#40
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Wow ... I'm surprised!

That looks insanely AMAZING!!! The only minor, and it's not all that bad TBH, is the "Turn Order", if it could JUST FIT into the area above the "Round Tracker"...

I'm sure it would fit and look just a bit better!

But that's really again a very "minor" detail. I'm really impressed with how you've manage to "par down" and make everything look 100x much CLEANER!

Again just the "Turn Order"... You've done a WONDERFUL job in streamlining the board, your game will be 10x better because of the neatness and clarity of your NEW design.

Are you going to work on a revised rulebook??? I don't think it's good for me to continue with the OLD one, considering all the intelligent changes that you've applied to this version.

I realize that it may take some time to get a revised rulebook. What are your thoughts on this??? Like I said, I don't want to muck around the OLD rulebook since you've implemented changes that are not only esthetically pleasing but also more logical too.

Anyways maybe get back to me with a TIMELINE for the NEW "rulebook"! Cheers.

Note #1: The National, Regional, and Local tabs could be a bit lighter in color (#dddddd or #eeeeee) and will look better with the Black Labels. Again very minor. They're a bit hard to read ATM. Lightning-up the tabs grey color wil make them just a bit better. Again nothing over-dramatic.

Note #2: Even if you leave it AS-IS... It looks totally beautiful! Again minor aesthetics... but still very impressive and surprising too!

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Mon, 07/04/2022 - 15:11
#41
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The graphics are just a basic

The graphics are just a basic outline and the artist will re-design it to make it look more professional. The only changes in the rule book will be the scoring and movement, plus how the actions work, as in action selection, but I need to play test that first. That should not put you off reading the current rule book as I need to check if that new mechanism works. I will be playtesting the game at the weekend to see if the changes work or not.

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Thu, 07/07/2022 - 20:02
#42
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No worries...

Playtest and playtest some more... Iron-out the details of the "Action Selection" and see how the game plays and check-out if you need to manually tweak any balance in the values presented in the game (like # of votes to add for a National Rally, for example), etc.

But overall, I will PAUSE on the rulebook. Why? Because the changes are sufficiently dramatic that it might be better to wait for a revision. Like I said in one of my earlier comments, Page #11 should be an description of the "Turn-Order". I know you said you have some kind of "Reference Sheet" for the turn-order, but I would introduce HOW TO PLAY here. And then you can move on and describe HOW to determine the Turn-Order of Players, Movement and Action Selection, etc.

I'm sure you understand what I mean... Your game is only as good as its Rulebook... Why? Because you need to effectively describe HOW to play and then you will see if players grasp the concept or not. At least that is the way I look at it...

Again I'll take a pause until you can get more playtests done... And then with some more information (and with some Editing) maybe we can resolve the rulebook issues together. I'm still willing to help you out. This is a part-time gig... (LOL) So let's see what playtesting reveals and is the game more exciting to play now that you've implemented some changes!

Cheers... If the board's appearance is anywhere near an indicator for how good the game looks to be... My guess is you've got a HOT title with this game!

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Thu, 07/07/2022 - 20:54
#43
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And BTW ...

I know how difficult it can be to FIX a rulebook. One of my design which is very advanced in the prototype stage called "Crystal Heroes" (CH) is requiring me to EDIT the rulebook for some changes in terms of the game layout and explanation of how certain Gems react differently in the game.

Also I need to remove some "Play Styles" which talk about different Game Play Formats... Anyhow, all that was NICE "before" The Game Crafter decided to NOT offer price breaks on any RANDOMIZE Booster Packs. So, no economies of scale!

That put my illustrator and me at a bit of a rift. She thought that I would be able to give her a big bonus... But unfortunately those plans were cancelled and now I am left figuring out what to do with this "design".

So, I understand that rulebook revisions are annoying and time-demanding. But ultimately they are ESSENTIAL if you want to have a completed game!

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Thu, 07/07/2022 - 22:34
#44
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But please playtest your prototype to iron out all the details!

Again no worries if all the changes take some time to integrate or modify the existing design/prototype. So if it's in a month that's fine too... Take whatever time you need to revise your design.

Sincerely.

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Thu, 07/07/2022 - 23:22
#45
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Could you add an "outlet valve" action

Sorry I haven't gotten you a proper reply to your post. But one quick thing. I remember in the rules it says that players may not be able to play both actions in their turn. I was wondering if you could add a suboptimal action that players can aways take. These are in other games and as a designer I think of them as an outlet valve for when there is to much pressure on a system. On example is in viticulture you can always place your worker on the gain $1 space. In seven wonders you can sell a card for $3*. I am not sure what this action would be in your case. Maybe gain some money or place a single cube in a region or gain a diplomacy token. If you can think of a good one you may want to.include it in your play teating this weekend. Feel free to disregard, use, or improve upon. Good luck with your game.

*yes I know in seven wonders in really specific situations players can take advantage of this mechanism take it more powerful, but like 95% of the time the sell a card action is an outlet valve action.

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Fri, 07/08/2022 - 06:04
#46
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This sounds very familiar to my...

In Quest_v2 ... I had a concern that what if the Fragments you have in play BLOCK a player from moving their "Engine" along... So I came up with a optional Action called "Convert" and it basically costs from 1 to 3 Income to switch a Hero's Class to one of the other Classes.

Again this was because I was trying NOT to "Block" players from being able to do nothing to counter a Trial or Battle... And since these are cards played by the opponent into a Player's Timeline, that can be a real b!tch to get around.

So, I added a "Convert" to mitigate against this "design flaw".

Sounds very similar to your "outlet valve" action, in that it is ALWAYS possible but it comes at the expense of Income and turn dilution. Normally Actions are FREE and that's really how you build your engine. But for "Convert" the opposite is true: you must pay Income on your turn, which results in perhaps a lost turn or more depending on the nature of your struggle to get the right Classes to pass a Trial or Battle a monster.

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Tue, 07/19/2022 - 15:25
#47
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Thoughts

The round table works, but I think a rectangular table would work better. IMO a circle table implies all options are equal, where as a rectangular tables implies a thes options are of increasing importance. Take a look at viticulture, it uses a large circle to indicate that an unlimited number of workers can be take this action and they all get the return on the action. If the similar action has a different return, viticulture uses three small one meeple circles in a row kind of forming a rectangle. This indicates that the actions are different based which on is taken.

I have not gotten a chance to look at the new rule book to see how travel has changed.

As far as the turn order thing, there are people with have a math phobia out there. I say that about half the gamers I play with would pull out their phone to add these numbers together the way that you have suggested.

Feel free to disregard use or improve upon. Good luck with your game

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Sat, 09/17/2022 - 15:54
#48
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Played the new version with

Played the new version with an action selection board that each player has, although the board has 3 strips where at the end of each round players have to turn over the end strip to the other side. Each side has 3 different action spots to choose from, so 9 in total in front of the player. When a player takes an action by placing their meeple on that spot. Their next action can only be from the same row or column. Players need to plan in advance. The order of actions will change when the strips are turned over.

The game was more streamlined playing it this way and chopped off around 15mins off the game time. The other change of splitting the countries into political region areas made it much more interesting and having to use money to travel to each region makes you strategies and value money more in this version.

Thank you for the suggestions in making these changes. I am taking the game to the playtest group on Thursday for further feedback.

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Sat, 09/17/2022 - 17:27
#49
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Congratulations by keeping at it and streamlining your game!

@Jay that's great news! Fantastic that you've been able to "perfect" the game and offer a shorter experience with better playability. We all aim to HELP the people that visit BGDF.com. All feedback, I'm hoping was of value. Please do continue to refine and polish the game... And consider sharing with us the valuable player feedback your will be getting from your Test Group!

Always nice to hear what people PLAYING the game have to say... And of course feel free to share with us news, challenges, obstacles and any questions you may want any of the designers to take a look at.

We're here to HELP. Most people enjoy sharing their own personal ideas with how to improve a game. Nobody that I know on this forum "wastes" anyone's time, we are all very professional and available to assist people in making their games a reality.

Cheers and let us know how the feedback is from live play!

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Sun, 11/06/2022 - 16:03
#50
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This playtested really well

This playtested really well with the Cardiff playstesters with no recommendations to improve the mechanism and worked extremely well. The only changes needed are cosmetic which the artists was working on. Unfortunately, the artist has vanished. Their Facebook account thas been deleted, they are not responding to any communication, and as they are based in Ukraine this is very concerning.

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Sun, 11/06/2022 - 19:43
#51
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Hmm... Not sure about that!?

Maybe you should find an artist in a Country which is not at WAR where people are not being killed (genocide) and there is little to no stability. I find it hard for you to expect anything LESS than that!?

Maybe he/she got captured by Russian forces? Maybe he/she got conscripted?

We can suppose all we want... But the real fact is that you should find an artist from a more STABLE country. We've got a LOT of Canadian artists ... You get +25% extra due to the value of US money.

You could try Fiverr and see what you can find. Sorry for your BAD NEWS ... But it was inevitable in a country at WAR!!!

Sincerely.

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Mon, 11/07/2022 - 15:42
#52
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questccg wrote:Maybe you

questccg wrote:
Maybe you should find an artist in a Country which is not at WAR where people are not being killed (genocide) and there is little to no stability. I find it hard for you to expect anything LESS than that!?

Maybe he/she got captured by Russian forces? Maybe he/she got conscripted?

We can suppose all we want... But the real fact is that you should find an artist from a more STABLE country. We've got a LOT of Canadian artists ... You get +25% extra due to the value of US money.

You could try Fiverr and see what you can find. Sorry for your BAD NEWS ... But it was inevitable in a country at WAR!!!

Sincerely.

Lets hope she is ok. But I am concerned, plus I may end up losing a few thousands as I havent received final versions.

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Mon, 11/07/2022 - 16:00
#53
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Some advice (You can ignore it if you want...)

JayProducer wrote:
... plus I may end up losing a few thousands as I haven't received final versions.

Never pay an artist UP-FRONT. Agree to a price per piece and a volume discount if there are many pieces ... And the artist gets PAID when they DELIVER the ART!

That's another mistake that you have been making. Sorry to say but if you PAID upfront you have no way of knowing where this "person" disappears leaving you on a LURCH! And that's got nothing to do with a country in WAR... It also has to do with any person... If you pay them UP-FRONT ... There is no guarantee they will ever produce said ART ... Because they CAN "Ghost" you.

That's another WARNING: if you want to pay for certain pieces like a LOGO or a BOX, etc. That can be one-off production. But if you are paying for Card Art, like 50 cards ... That can be done in batches of 5 pieces and the pricing should be less expensive because you are doing a set of art (not piecemeal). You can PAY in batches for said artwork and work towards completing all of the artwork!

Just some words of advice. I've worked with 4 artists and 1 writer ... They always get paid AFTER they complete a "milestone". Cheers!

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