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Strengthening the theme by replacing numbers with keywords

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Mon, 12/05/2022 - 12:35
larienna
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This is an idea I had lately for a relatively simple game with a low amount of components, but that should have a rich theme and story like Arkham Horror and friends.

The problem is that I don't want to have story text, I don't personally find it deep and engaging even as a player. I decided to use a similar solution to "Android net runner" where thematic keywords are used intensively to designate game elements.

In my case, I was considering replacing numeric stats with keywords. For example, instead of having an influence stat of 3, I could give the keyword "Wealth" and "Persuasion". Any challenge that would require those keywords would grant bonus modifiers. The old solution would have been something like roll 1D + influence.

So the idea is to add more depth instead of just a number. The games is still relatively simple, I just want to modify a roll. But with a simple replacement it seems to increase thematic depth.

Do you think it does strengthen the theme?

Is there alternatives besides using story text?

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Tue, 12/06/2022 - 19:21
#1
questccg
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Just some things to think about

If you design a game like Arkham Horror (I believe) you need to ADAPT the concept to cater to Gamers who have a "sort-of" interest in RPGs. And then if you do this, you can have Investigators with different CLASSES. Obviously suitable for the Arkham Horror genre.

Like you could have a Thief (in standard RPG) and have an Acrobat (in Arkham Horror). And then you could have KEYWORDS specific to each CLASS. Like Dexterity, Agility, Sneaking, etc. (For the Acrobat)

And maybe you can use "DEX +2" means roll 2D6s and add +2 to the result. And you could have an "general" Influence (or Charisma) modifier which is added too.

Of course this is nothing really NEW if you've seen or watched videos about Arkham Horror. But nothing stops you from having BOTH Keywords and Bonuses or Penalties as Numbers.

I don't think ONE replaces the other TBH. You could have BOTH and trim a lot of the "story text" as you call it. And PERHAPS make it more RPG-Oriented than the standard Arkham Horror game which is more VERBOSE.

Why exclude numbers? They are natural to go along with Symbols and Keywords.

Anyways that's the way I look at it. Symbols, Keywords, Stats and Bonuses and/or Penalties... Should all work in tandem to make the experience more appealing.

Sincerely.

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Tue, 12/06/2022 - 19:31
#2
questccg
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Also ...

While I am talking about a more modern approach to an RPG tailored to customized Investigators, I think you could make use of Polyhedral Dice. I always think that some STATS use the D6, other D12 and maybe others still D20.

And maybe your CLASSES define which DICE for which STAT.

Like for the Acrobat, D6 for DEX and D20 for CHA (or Influence). Thieves are usually not graded as the most personable people especially with their tendency to steal or to be sneaky.

You don't need 6 or 8 stats per investigator. Maybe three only: D6, D12 and D20.

And you don't need to choose the BEST skills for each CLASS.

This could make a PARTY more interesting to PLAY together. I doubt this is going to be a 1-Player game, right???

So multi-player means trying to get the most out of the STATs which choosing the type of CHARACTER that suits each player.

Something like that. All the best with this design... I can see something very promising and engaging too! Cheers.

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Wed, 12/07/2022 - 00:38
#3
larienna
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I know how to handle RPG with

I know how to handle RPG with stats. I worked on wizardry and several RPG system when I was younger.

My concern is how to improve story driven theme with little material.

For example, I could have en encounter designed this way:

-------------------------------------------
Infiltrate a group of cultist
Success traits: Wealth, persuasion, improvisation
Success additional reward: Gain 1 supply
Casualty traits: Willpower, Lore
Casualty: Lose 1 sanity
-------------------------------------------

So the trait system: you get a +1 o your D6 roll for each matching trait. There is a success roll, and a casualty roll.

So as you can see, there is little information, I could add a bit of flavor text and artwork, and that is the limit of what I can do with the theme. But the fact that the traits are described as keywords, it describe even more what you are trying to do. Yes you are infiltrating a group of cultist by using your wealth, trying to persuade people what you are worthy or by improvising maybe a story to justify your presence.

So does it feels more thematic with that method without having to write any story text?

The idea is more to create a story machine rather than a scripted story.

--------------------------------------------------------

People on BGG said that it could be more complicated to search and match for keywords. One solution that came to my find to make scanning easier would be to have 25 unique traits each starting with a different unique letter. So you could simply try to match a letter instead of a word. That letter could be put in evidence.

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Wed, 12/07/2022 - 06:08
#4
pelle
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I do not see a problem with

I do not see a problem with the mechanic you describe, as long as it is quick to look up and that the tags you list are exactly the tags I need to look for on my character. It would be annoying if you had a tag on the cultist card that I had to match against some other tag on the character card and remember (or look up) what "offensive tags" match what "defensive tags". I remember that from other games, but not sure what games (may have been digital games) where you may have an object tagged "flammable" and then a tag on something else that says "fire" and then you have to put the two together and remember that you can use "fire" to get a bonus against "flammable". And that will quickly end up with tags that can affect multiple other tags or a tag that can be affected by multiple other tags in complex n:m relationships.

BUT I am curious how the system with numeric modifiers would look that is equivalent to what you describe? I do not see that in any obvious way? How would the cultist group have looked with numeric values if you wanted to have the equivalent outcome in modifications/probabilities that you have now? I can imagine that it would be at least as complex as what you have now, and involving a list of stats that interact with a list of other stats? Is this really only thematic or do you end up with two functionally different systems when you used tags vs numbers?

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Wed, 12/07/2022 - 06:21
#5
pelle
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When I saw the thread title I

When I saw the thread title I thought it was going to be about something like in Fields of Fire, where annoyingly words are used instead of numbers just "for theme" even if it only makes the game less playable. In that game you have ranges on weapons that can be for instance C (for Close) or L (for Long) and then you have to just remember that C means 1 (adjacent card) and L means 2 (two cards away) and so on (I think there are four different ranges?). So sure there is probably someone, somewhere (including the designer) that thinks it is more thematic that a weapon has "close range" than that the weapon has "range 1" but to me it is just extra mental noise and obfuscation and for theme the rulebook could just have said "1 means close range".

Also the FATE/Fudge series of RPGs comes to mind that each have a (unique...) list of names for modifiers because the designers (and probably some players) think that is more thematic. So in Fudge (or at least the exact version I happened to have downloaded a long time ago) there is a list of 7 words that goes from Terrible (i.e. -3) to Fair (0) to Superb (+3) (and an optional Legendary (+4)). But then related games have a similar table but other words (I hope not many players have to go back and forth much between those systems but stick to one!) like in FATE Core the list goes from Terrible (-2) to Mediocre (0) to Fair (+2) to Legendary (+8), for a total of 11 steps, and as you notice there are steps that have the same names as in the original Fudge system but not representing the same modifiers.

I think those things are bad ideas. Anything that is just a different name for a number should be that number. But it sounds like the trait system that the thread is actually about is not just replacing a number, so that sounds more OK to me.

To be fair the FATE Core rulebook says "It doesn’t really matter which side of the ladder you use—some people
remember the words better, some people remember the numbers better, and some people like using both" so they are not pushing the names-instead-of-numbers hard. But in a boardgame it might be trickier if you go the route of using words for numbers and do not include the numbers printed on components it will be more difficult for players that prefer numbers to ignore the words. In a RPG the game master can easily use whatever system the group prefers and ignore the other system.

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Wed, 12/07/2022 - 06:28
#6
larienna
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I don't have an exact numeric

I don't have an exact numeric equivalent. I would need to change things around to get something similar, but the odds could be different.

I intend to use same keyword matching. One of the advantage is that it increase the possibility space of modifiers that character assets can give. It's not just a +1, each +1 is unique, and duplicate does not count.

But as other people mentioned on BGG, it would convert keywords as mechanics, but it will not make it more thematic. People would only scan for keywords.

So not a bad mechanic, but it does not strengthen the theme.

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Wed, 12/07/2022 - 18:53
#7
questccg
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A bit of both worlds perhaps

larienna wrote:
So not a bad mechanic, but it does not strengthen the theme.

I don't know if I agree. Keywords are DIFFERENT but if you plan on COMBINING keywords and numbers (like +2 or -3 bonuses and penalties) I think it does help the players to BETTER "connect" to the game.

Of course BGG members might be correct in it becoming more of a "matching keyword" system where the players are looking for matching keywords and that the design is not MORE "thematic" because of this kind of "do the minimum work as possible to play" (meaning searching for keywords).

However a part of me says that the players who SLOW DOWN and EXPERIENCE the game (and are not hell-bent on matching all the keywords), might find the game to be more THEMATIC IMHO!

So I think it's a bit of both perhaps.

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Wed, 12/07/2022 - 19:11
#8
questccg
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I also agree that FATE or FUDGE systems might be viable too

I agree what @pelle mentioned about the FATE and FUDGE system. The result of what happens depends on rolling FATE or FUDGE dice. I'm not sure HOW MANY dice per "action" (in that the player wants to take an "action" and DO THIS...) and I don't think that MORE dice is a solution ... Because on average a PLUS (+) gets offset by a MINUS (-) making those two (2) dice cancelling each other out.

So where am I going with all this???

Using either of the two (2) Ladder systems (FATE or FUDGE -- I personally prefer the FATE system and have been examining it for several years now) ... leads you to make QUANTIFYABLE decisions. In my own opinion, I think you need BOTH the NUMBERS and KEYWORDS to understand what happens when an action is performed.

For example: If you roll 3 FATE dice and get "+", "+", "Blank" ... What does that mean??? It means not much other than understanding that your DICE ROLL was POSITIVE.

If we apply the LADDER system to a "Mediocre" STAT ... You still have no idea what the result of the ROLL is. I mean what does "Mediocre" MEAN???

So if we say that "Mediocre" = (0) and that you get a +2 ... What does that mean = 0 + 2 = 2. Again the number here only "2" means very little. However if you apply the LAST conversion (2) = "Fair" only then we see that for a "Mediocre (0)" STAT your action that you want to take has a "Fair (2)" outcome.

This is my own opinion but I think I disagree with @pelle. I think the NUMBERS and the KEYWORDS are TIED TOGETHER. You need BOTH to understand what is happening (at least that's the way I feel). Having a quick reference for the ladder is not hard and the dice rolls are SELF-EXPLANATORY as presented above.

Maybe instead of KEYWORDS, you might want to consider using the FATE system. (It's the more MODERN RPG system -- FUDGE was an older version and is less used nowadays... I didn't say obsolete... I said LESS USED.)

I think this makes it that DICE, KEYWORDS and STATS all work together in a system which is easy to comprehend once you've mastered the ladder.

Cheers!

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