Skip to Content
 

Splash damage with d6 rolls, in wargames

10 replies [Last post]
X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013

How would you do this?

Right now I have a mechanic that doesn't seem to work properly. And causes a lot of down time due to the player being able to sort a bit themselves.

Let's say, we roll 12d6.

A normal roll has these sorted from low to high. And then the damage is allocated to 1 unit at a time. Excess damage on 1 die will not go to a next target.

The splash roll is supposed to be spread out over a number of targets.
The latter caused a lot of trouble in the balance.

So, how would you do this?
How to remove downtime and analysis paralysis?

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
I need to UNDERSTAND something FIRST...

Before I can offer you an IDEA, I need to know HOW(?) you are handling DICE ROLLING.

Is it roll ?D6s and keep "x" and that's the number of successful attacks???

Like Roll 5D6s and keep all "1" to determine the number of successes.

IF THIS IS TRUE... The following can be possible:

questccg wrote:
For each ROLL KEEP "6" and that is the number of splash damage attacks.

Something like that can be a STARTING point to the combat mechanic for SPLASH damage.

How it WORKS(?) that is still up to you. I'm just offering you a way to HAVE the POSSIBILITY of a SPLASH damage and leave you the rest about how to customize and tailor it.

I stated this because many Wargames work like this: Roll ?D6s and keep "x".

But your game may be different. IDK. Like I said this is ONE (1) WAY to initiate the process of dealing splash damage.

Hope this helps... IDK if it will.

Note #1: I don't want to POLLUTE or CONTAMINATE your design process. What I've stated is an INITIATION mechanic. But what happens AFTER is 100% no 1000% of your design.

Like you could take the "6" and perform another ROLL with all those dice and have some kind of more complicated process in determining the damage (like you mostly do...)

It means WITH Splash each DICE has a 1 in 3 (1:3) chance of doing damage. Which is DOUBLE the standard attack which is 1 in 6 (1:6).

I know it's simple... NOW. But that's only for determining IF there is SPLASH damage... And NOT HOW MUCH!!! How much is entirely up to you to think up of a Damage roll and multiply by the number of "6" or something probably better IDK.

But my point is I HAVE not designed the SPLASH DAMAGE. Only whether a SPLASH ATTACK had occurred.

Cheers @X3M.

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
The crux of the matter is...

There are TWO (2) problems you need to SOLVE:

#1> When does a SPLASH ATTACK occur?

#2> How does each SPLASH ATTACK deal SPLASH DAMAGE?

***

For the first, I already made an oversimplified solution which is EASY to understand, implement and play with.

For the second, I differ to your ideas about DAMAGE and how to compute it give various units, combinations of units, etc. etc.

***

Those are BOTH of the problems facing HOW(?) to implement SPLASH ATTACKS & DAMAGE...

Best!

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
Grinding a Brainstorm

For now...anything goes.

I like to gather as much options as possible.
Then see what I can work out to fit for my game.

As for the default damage roll?

We call these the normal damage dice.
The player rolls #d6.
Can be 1 to 12 (120 with the x3, x9 and x27 rolls)
But 12d6 is the maximum.

The damage by default would be a d6 -2.
Thus the damage is either 0, 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4.
The dice are sorted from low to high.

The damage is allocated to a target.
And you keep allocating to this target until it is dead.
4Example: 000011223344 on 5 health targets:
00001122, 33, 44= 3 kills.
3 health targets?:
0000112, 23, 3, 4, 4= 5 kills.
Tank?:
20 damage.

A good roll is not that good.

Yes, other damages are possible. But those dice are specific dice for specific units (sniper, bunker buster, etc.)

***

As for splash? My goal is to at least have the damage being spread out. Still, a good roll should have a chance to be overkill.

But...this mechanic for splash didn't work out as I hoped for.

Your first suggestion might work. I do have the option of rolling something. And have the result being spread out. Meaning I get a roll variant of the concussive damage.

Quote:
Like you could take the "6" and perform another ROLL with all those dice and have some kind of more complicated process in determining the damage (like you mostly do...)
Ah.... yikes. Already got this :D

I got the explosive rolls. Where a die roll can trigger an extra roll. Here is an example: Roll 1d6. If you roll 3 or less, roll a second die. If this one rolls 3 or less, roll a third die. etc.

It can be done during the damage roll too.
Either have the extra rolls when there is no damage.
Or together WITH damage.

The thing is, the explosive dice are all regarded as Normal dice. Meaning they get in that sorting list.
Eventually, I had to limit the number of "rerolls". Unless I combine it with a focussed roll. Or have them attack one target as exception. Thus, a die hits a target. And thus can roll its own normal list.

Yes, I see how you have it designed as an occurence. Which is a thematic combination with the explosive dice.

Which makes me ponder if I even should get splash in the first place. I mean, I do have 1 projectile explode and hit multiple targets if a target is destroyed.

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
Keywords

- Splash is, and should be, divided over multiple targets.
- Splash cannot be focussed on 1 target.
- Splash is more effective against a group of weaker individuals than a singular target.
- The attribute splash should be able to be combined with other attributes. You can leave this part to me.

How would a cardgamer do this with a card vs multiple cards?
Maybe I could get idea's from that.

***

I had one idea that I am not particular happy with.
We don't sort the dice like the normal dice.
But we DO add up all the results. And divide them as evenly as possible among the targets.

That 20 damage that I mentioned. Over 5 targets could be 4 damage each. But if one of the projectiles as a cannon shell, dealing 36 damage times 4ex, a damage roll of 3. Then with the sorting, you need to have the list include a tank as target at the right time.

But with splash, I don't know how to do this. Allowing that particular roll hit the tank? And have the other 2 portions hit other targets? That might work.

So, allocating the total damage over the possible targets is an option. But this mechanic would be very close to focus or concussive. I will keep it in mind. But want to expand my mind to other options.

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
MY mistake...

See I did not have all the information to make a very "useful" comment. Why?

Because you are DERIVING DAMAGE from 1 to 12 D6s rolled. With some kind of modifier and that is the DAMAGE done.

I was thinking that it was more like in normal WARGAMES where you FIRST roll to determine the NUMBER of SUCCESSFUL ATTACK and then roll AGAIN to determine the AMOUNT of DAMAGE caused.

Sorry... You're not using standard wargame practices.

So my suggestion is to have a NORMAL attack HIT on a "1" and a SPLASH attack HIT on "6"... Is not valid because you use the dice to compute DAMAGE "right away"!

I was unaware that this was your method of play/combat.

***

ATM I don't have anything else to share... If all DICE HIT no matter what and are subsequently TRANSFORMED to DAMAGE by a formula (D6 - 2) well then this blows my ideas because they're not aligned in any matter TBH.

Like IF you had something setup like this:

A> A FORMATION can be comprised of 12 UNITS MAX.

B> For each UNIT, roll 1D6 (so MAX = 12D6).

C> For each ROLL = "1", set that dice aside.

D> For each ROLL = "6", set that dice aside too (this would be for SPLASH Damage).

E> For each "1 Dice" roll 1D6 and then use your formula (D6 - 2).

F> For each "6 Dice" ... Do whatever you WANT to do... (And all YOUR thinking goes here)...

***

Something like that IS THE BEST I can come up with. I know you won't like rolling D6s 2x (so a MAX of 12D6s re-rolled either for NORMAL HITS or SPLASH DAMAGE). It will slow down the game a bit.

But it makes Combat more MECHANICAL and LESS formulaic (or Math-oriented).

That's the BEST I can do. I don't play wargames, I don't design them either. So I'm just giving you my GUT ideas... The ones that come to mind given my rather limited knowledge of wargames.

Maybe this helps, IDK TBH.

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
something new

You made me realize that we often roll to hit.
(Keep in mind, the default health is 5)

But what if we don't hit, yet the weapon still manages to deal damage?
I see the same in Xcom(2).

I also see this with force fire on the ground in RTS. And then the target not being a target, still receives damage.

That is what splash does.

So, what if we look into something that doesn't hit, but does some damage?

***

My rolls consist of 2 parts.

1: Accuracy, it is a hit or miss. Some weapons have 100% hit chance.
2: Damage, it can still deal 0, but it can go up to 4. And other weapons have a bigger modifier. Thus going from 0 to 1 on one end. In the middle we have 1 to 6. And the other end is 1+x to 6+x.

If [1] is a miss. Can we have [2] still deal damage?

Ok, that is a part of the weapons.

The other part is that is should (or must) be divided over multiple enemies.

So, perhaps combine the both?

The projectile is a mis or hit.
If it hits. It deals full damage to the target. Then another roll for a next target is an option. But not sure how much.
Maybe combine this with the "explosive" mechanic.

If it is a mis. It rolls for damage. But it is less.

***

Yet another option.

We roll.

a hit? We roll normally.
And we keep rolling this die.
But each roll needs to roll the previous roll or less to be extra damage.

a miss? We do the same.
But the first one is discarded.

001234.
A 4 would remain "a hit".
But for example, we roll a 2.
It is over.
If we roll a 3. We roll again. If it is a 3 again, we add 1 damage.

Now then.... in order to have splash.
Each roll is another damage die.

So, if we have for example 1334. And we roll 2 splash dice resulting in 310 and 220. Which is 1223. Which makes the total into 11223334.
We can then allocate the splahs together with the normal dice.

Still, would be interesting to have the splash happen AFTER the normal dice.

Then have the splash also being distributed over multiple targets. But..... the 0 damage is not used. And the dead targets are not used. So, having all the damage being sorted and then allocated. Would be good.

And in order to prevent extra downtime. We only allow the player to have correct RPS targets to line up.

We could do the same as above. But have a roll just being worth much more. And the damage to each new target is -1.
Thus 4 has a total of 10. 3 has a total of 6. 2 has a total of 3. And 1 remains 1.
One die roll of d6 -2 Would have not an average damage of 10/6. But an average damage of 20/6. Thus twice as much.
Given....that there are mutliple targets.

Since the latter would be a yes/no situation. Splash would be weighing 150%. And thus in a good situation have an efficiency of 133%. And in a bad situation (thus 1 target) an efficiency of only 50%.

Not sure yet if it should be sorted or not.

Not sure, but what do you think? I feel I am getting closer.

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
I can't believe I understood the ROLLS...

But Efficiency of +50% or +33% is good. 1 Target = 50% is good too... Not overkill so it sounds like it all makes sense.

Did I understand this correctly:

X3M wrote:
So, if we have for example 1334. And we roll 2 splash dice resulting in 310 and 220. Which is 1223. Which makes the total into 11223334. We can then allocate the splash together with the normal dice.

The example is 1334. OK. 310 and 220 = 2 Splash D6s. OK TOO. We had 1334 and SPLASH is 1223. And yeah the total is 11223334 (when you add 1334 and 1223). That's OK too. Did I get it right???

Sounds cool to me. Fnck I can't believe I actually UNDERSTOOD your MATH and REASONING. And I'm not drinking any liquor (I like Rye) either... Hehehe.

Man that is NEATO... Very IMPRESSIVE.

But maybe you should do NORMAL FIRST and SPLASH SECOND. And keep them APART.

However I am UNSURE about WHY(?) we roll "2" SPLASH dice instead of "3"???

Again I can't believe I got your method for computing the damage from the initial rolls. Wow... It actually made a lot a sense this time around...

Like I said, I don't want to BUG you for explanations all the time. It just slows you down. But every now and then... I get it. And it's COOL!!!

Cheers @X3M.

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
Now you've got ME THINKING...

Maybe NORMAL DICE = White. SPLASH DICE = Black.

Normal Dice = D6 - 2
Splash Dice = D6 - 1(???)

So splash dice inherently do more damage. But maybe have less ARMOR and therefore take MORE Damage too... IDK.

I get how you distribute the dice across multiple units WITH OVERKILL.

Was this what you were thinking about???

Again, I won't bother you too much to explain. Because this is YOUR Design Space and I don't want you to have to explain detail and detail when I can't figure out what it is you are trying to achieve. But so far ... I think I understood!

Best!

Note #1: I think the TWO (2) COLOR dice solves SOME of your problems.

You get "11223334" but NOW you know which ARE WHITE and WHICH are BLACK.

You can do WHATEVER your heart desires now that the DICE have 2-Colors. Why? Because maybe you want something else than "-1".

Maybe in this CASE the BLACK DICE OVERKILL SPLASHES OVER TO THE NEXT UNIT. Which in NORMAL CASE (White) it is lost... Normally overkill is LOST.

Fncking KEWL! You may not like it. But I think it could work. So SPLASH DAMAGE get 100% ALLOCATED EVEN WITH OVERKILL. Overkill goes over to affect the NEXT UNIT in the STACK.

Frig... I love it. And it's like YOU think. No worries if this doesn't work for you. But I think it would be GREAT METHOD for SPLASHING OVER ...

Note #2: Sequencing the DICE (B&W) is also VERY STRATEGIC because you can do it to PRIORITIZE more HITS from the SPLASH Dice.

Like IF you are HITTING "5 Health" and have 11223334, you would allocate 1122 = 6 (>5) and NORMAL White Dice it's OVERKILL. But if the 2nd "2" is BLACK, you do 1121 = 5 and +1 to the NEXT UNIT (ergo the term SPLASH)...

11223334 against 5 HP = 1122, 23, 33, 4 (miss). This is NORMAL.

11223334 against 5 HP = 1121, +1 22, +1 31, +2 4. This is with SPLASH.

So SPLASH does extra damage and would punch out that 4th UNIT while without it normally it would only kill 3 units and leave the 4th PLUS units.

Again you may not like the idea. So this is all probably useless. But I'm happy that I understood and could follow along. That's not easy to do TBH!

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
Describing rolls <<< visuals

questccg wrote:

But maybe you should do NORMAL FIRST and SPLASH SECOND. And keep them APART.

However I am UNSURE about WHY(?) we roll "2" SPLASH dice instead of "3"???

Again I can't believe I got your method for computing the damage from the initial rolls. Wow... It actually made a lot a sense this time around...

Like I said, I don't want to BUG you for explanations all the time. It just slows you down. But every now and then... I get it. And it's COOL!!!

Cheers @X3M.


Indeed, I agree that normal goes first. And splash comes second.

As for the number of splash dice. I was only giving an example. I don't know yet what the balanced version would be since the mechanic is still unclear.
As for the normal roll of 1334, it could have been 4 to any number of normal dice.

I am happy you understood this one. It sure helped that I am keeping it as simple as possible. And don't throw in a dozen of dice with a dozen of mechanics.

questccg wrote:
Maybe NORMAL DICE = White. SPLASH DICE = Black.

Normal Dice = D6 - 2
Splash Dice = D6 - 1(???)

So splash dice inherently do more damage. But maybe have less ARMOR and therefore take MORE Damage too... IDK.

I tend to keep the body separate from the weapon.

If a body is cheap, an expensive weapon can be placed on the design.

D6 - 1, is the 150% dice roll. These weapons have a better damage. Can sniper default health by a 1/6th chance. And only have a 1/6th chance is still failing, even if the accuracy was 100%.
Still, I am happy you mentioned this one. Since these dice also appear in the "focus" classification. Where you roll them and assign them into the normal roll.

And thus, the splash truly need to be treated differently.
Funfact, the original focus dice were previously called splash dice. But the name was so counter intuitive with the effect. I renamed them. And decided to get a true splash roll in the game.

Don't worry about coloured dice
Each set has its own roll. And the results are with chips on a 1,2,3,4 paper. Which will be expanded if other damages are possible. But the chips are coloured to keep track.

questccg wrote:
Maybe in this CASE the BLACK DICE OVERKILL SPLASHES OVER TO THE NEXT UNIT. Which in NORMAL CASE (White) it is lost... Normally overkill is LOST.

Fncking KEWL! You may not like it. But I think it could work. So SPLASH DAMAGE get 100% ALLOCATED EVEN WITH OVERKILL. Overkill goes over to affect the NEXT UNIT in the STACK.

Frig... I love it. And it's like YOU think. No worries if this doesn't work for you. But I think it would be GREAT METHOD for SPLASHING OVER ...


Well, I try to spread out the damage as much as possible. So, perhaps do this in combination with the spreading.

The targets have 2 and 2 health. We roll a 4 splash. Both targets die.

The targets have 3 and 2 health. We roll a 3 splash. We could either kill the 2 health and have 1 damage go to the 3 health. Or we kill the 3 health. It depends on what units they are. Of course, if we are dealing with equal units, then it doesn't matter here.

If we have 2 targets of 5 health each. And we roll a 4 and a 4 on the splash. Now we may NOT kill off 1 unit. No, splash dice may not be combined with other dice. They may only hit 1 or multiple targets. But not vice versa.

Which brings me to the next option:
Splash goes after Normal. But may only hit targets that are not hit yet. The player may allocate these dice as it sees fit.
But they may never be stacked.

Not sure about the dice that remain. But one thing is certain. This mechanic will probably have the player sort the dice from high to low now.

If 12 dice are rolled. And we get 000011223344. Then with only 6 targets. The 1's will not be used. With only 1 target, only 4 damage is applied.
If the enemy has 20 times a 1 hp target. Then all damage is used.

questccg wrote:

11223334 against 5 HP = 1122, 23, 33, 4 (miss). This is NORMAL.

11223334 against 5 HP = 1121, +1 22, +1 31, +2 4. This is with SPLASH.

So SPLASH does extra damage and would punch out that 4th UNIT while without it normally it would only kill 3 units and leave the 4th PLUS units.

Again you may not like the idea. So this is all probably useless. But I'm happy that I understood and could follow along. That's not easy to do TBH!


That is indeed the variant of where we allow splash to stack.
It is slightly better than the "focus" roll. But very similar. I do seek more difference. I am hoping to see that the 2 to 4 health units die the most.

Concussive vs 1 health
Normal vs 6+ health
Focus vs 5 health
[Splash vs 2-4 health]

I was close with another mechanic. But it didn't work that way all the time. But now you know my goal.

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
I will try to come up with

I will try to come up with some more idea's. But 3 new tests are planned:

1. Splash comes after Normal. It will only target the remaining units. With kills, damage goes to a next target.
Survivors get hit by only 1 splash die. So, focus and concussive need to come in after.

This mechanic is kinda complicated. But slightly different than a last test. The difference is that overkill is re-used.

2. Splash comes after Normal. But also after concussive and focus. The total damage is allocated freely. This latter is very easy, but the focus dice might be removed from the game, since they are almost similar now. While splash is slightly better.

3. Splash comes after Normal. The total damage is distributed equally over the targets, including the dead ones. Armor specific rolls can still be freely allocated.

How the target with armor goes? Example, you have a total of 7 splash vs armor. The average splash damage per target is 4 to 5. The target might have only 3 health. Then 1 to 2 damage is lost. The target might have 4 health, clearly you select this unit as a 4 damage, and another as 5 damage. And if this target has 5 health, well, you will assign 5 damage to it.
6 health? Sorry, the maximum was 5.

(120%) Focus can fill in the bigger gaps.
(90%) Concussive the smallest of gaps.

Not sure about the weight of splash.
But I think it should be 150%, when compared with concussive.
Where the total damage per 6 "dice" is 6 for concussive and 10 for splash.
This is the matter for all 3 tests.

Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut