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How to ADD a "conflict" mechanic to a...

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questccg
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I have been working with a "Medium Euro" Game called "Plains of Aria" (PoA). PoA used to be a simple Tile-Laying game which needed to be dramatically improve IF it was going to be a GAME that I publish.

Therefore from the simple Tile-Laying game, I added a bunch of "Euro"-style Game mechanics and currently have a "Medium Euro" Game. One of the primary aspects of the game is that there is NO "Player Interaction". Every player has their "Sandbox" and "builds" as they see fit without any of the opponents (from 1 to 3) making any "troubles" for the player.

This is all fine and dandy ... But to ME... It feel like the Euro Game is MISSING a "conflict" mechanic to go along with the Euro style of play.

So let me explain and maybe someone may have an idea worthwhile sharing.

***

PoA has Capitals, Townes, and Temples. It also have Knights and Serfs. Lastly it has Game Tiles which are built according to the choice of "territory" (or Pattern) chosen at the beginning of the game. And I would add that all of this is purely Euro as there is no "Battling" or "Conflict" in the game AS-IS.

So where are we now??? Excellent question!

I would want some kind of "Battling" mechanic. Some thing like players who are "battling" for specific territory without impeding on the Euro elements. Kinda like a "Tactical Layer" and it would involve "attacks" and controlling the tiles their opponent(s) have and control.

***

Again I'm not sure... HOW(?) to implement such a layer such that it doesn't affect the "Euro Elements" of the game. Also PoA is a "Sandbox" game meaning that each player has their own area of play.

Let me share some ideas:

questccg wrote:
IF a "Serf" is on an opponent's Game Tile (and let's say it is Red or "Mountains") when the PoA dice is rolled and it is Red, each Serf on a Red Game Tile earns +1 Gold and there is a maximum of +5 Gold since you can ONLY have at most 5 Serfs. The idea being that one player is occupying more Game Tiles than his own.

There is another rule in that the Game Tile OCCUPIED by a "Serf" must have AT LEAST one (1) Gemstone. Tiles used for buildings do not count. And therefore the need to "sometimes" occupy enemy territory.

And these are all very EURO concepts and imply no "conflict" even if you occupy and opponent's Game Tile, there is no conflict.

Aside from this very unfriendly "occupation" there is no more conflict in PoA other than that. And that's a bit the problem.

***

What I would like is some kind of CONFLICT which would have a Euro Goal: "For each 'occupied' or 'conquered' territory earns +1 Victory Points (VPs)."

This would make that CONFLICT having an important role in the game yet not over taking the entire game away from being a Euro-Style Board Game.

Some ideas that I am thinking about:

- Each tile has a colored cube which represents the OWNER of that tile.

This would be used to determine at a glance which tiles are "occupied" and which are "free" (occupied by the OWNER of that Game Tile).

- Some how Knights (and their Armies) move around the "Sandboxes".

Not sure how movement is to be controlled. If any ... Could this become something more clever, IDK. This requires more thinking!

- I don't want CONFLICT (think Battles) to be the focus of the game.

There are a total of six (6) Knights per player, one (1) for each Level of a player's Capitol.

- Occupation vs. Conflict

I really LIKE the idea of a Game Tile being occupied but not that the game is majorly about attacking and so forth. Again I am unsure how this could work.

I like something like this:

questccg wrote:
An enemy Knight can seize control of an opposing Temple. This would affect the VP Scoring rules as follows:

#1> The player with the MOST amount of Temples earns +4 VPs. This could sway the control of one Temple away from an opponent, resulting in the opposing player to earn this "reward".

#2> The player with the MOST Faith produced by Temples earns +5 VPs. Again this too could alter affect the scoring at the end of the game if an opponent would steal control of an opposing Temple.

So the effect of occupation could ALTER scoring in the last few rounds. However there are some thing to consider like:

- Area Control/Majority Rule to be forced on all players. I don't want this to be the dominating method by which players win the game.

- I want it to be more "sporadic" than an all-out occupation. I don't want it to be too "territorial" like one player "moves into" an opponent's territory.

- So the Cubes are only for tiles controlled by an opponent. And I don't want to necessarily be "permanent"... Not sure.

***

I will re-focus as I ponder about these PoA Details. I share them with all of you in the event that anyone has something they might want to discuss or mention or want to point out some kind of "issue(s)".

Cheers all.

questccg
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Conflict usually exists such as...

There are scarcities of resources (so shared resources), there are terrain disputes (so shared terrain), there are limited amount of upgrades (so shared tokens) and usually a pool of victory goals (so shared scoring).

So even as we know it... No DIRECT conflict, Euros have their share of THINGS to BATTLE over or first one served kind of decision making.

Plains of Aria (PoA) has none of these "conflicts" because the initial GOAL was to make a Euro game and I went on an exploratory path leading to the version of the PoA game.

Let me say that it is YEARS above the original ideas... When we were talking about using Magic: the Gathering or Open-World concepts which only work with Video Games, etc. etc.

So I'm not saying that PoA is BAD. On the contrary it's very GOOD. Just missing something to make it GREAT (so-to-speak)!

***

You build a Towne, GOOD. You earn +1 Serf per Towne. That Serf uses a type of "Area Control" mechanic to earn bonus Gold to help in the game. A player may build a Temple once his Towne reaches Level 2 (which costs 2 Coppers and 1 Silver). Now the player has a Towne (Level 2) and a Tower (Level 1). The player decides to upgrade his Town to Level 3 (and spends 3 Coppers). He now decides to make his Towne the Capitol of his realm (and again spends 1 Copper).

This is ALL GOOD... But means that the opponent can't do JACK to stop or even slow down an opponent. Everyone is like on Autopilot and taking care of their own business as if the realm had infinite resources! Haha.

***

But while it's GOOD, it's still not GREAT!

I feel like the opponent "should" be able to throw a wrench into actions every once and a while. No???

Anyhow ... I've seen sh!tty games which hardly made any sense ... But people NOT interested in ANY form of "competition" where the opponent(s) can add some do-do to make the game that much more INTERESTING... Is what I am going for.

Best!

questccg
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To help focus the conversation a bit...

I don't want a mechanic such as Risk where there is a Dominant Area-Control Mechanic which plays out in front of the players. Same for a board-like implementation of Pandemic; I don't want player to have to control areas such that they are connected.

What I am looking for is a more "sporadic" type of Area Control rather than an all-out occupation.

Typically Wargames like Risk are more about Total Area Control and this is NOT what I want. I want something "clever" that will work with some buildings here and there... But NOT everywhere.

IF anyone has additional questions, needs more clarification(s) or maybe have some ideas they feel like sharing, please feel free to contribute!

larienna
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I read your thread in

I read your thread in diagonal. One way to have "conflict" is to use indirect interactions. Pureto Rico is a good example where you have a pool of resources and buildings all players draw from. This is a kind of interaction. The things you pick in the common becomes unavailable to the others.

Else again in puerto rico, the roles you select (actions you make) impact the actions the others can do or not do. This is another kind of indirect interaction.

questccg
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Some early thoughts...

I was thinking that since "Gemstones" represent a Type of Tile (Green = Forests for example), I was thinking maybe there could be "resources" in the game.

Originally it was only Coppers, Silver and Gold. Which made sense but I am now pondering the fact that perhaps "resources" could make the game a bit "meatier" and may take the step-up to "Heavy Euro" which is not really a 4X game but more like a more compact version such a type of game.

Perhaps the biggest aspect that is the most nebulous is the fact that the "Kingdom" cards which was supposed to be a "Deck" used for establishing currency could now be more "general" and allow for "trading" of resources in return for currency.

So instead of a DIRECT method, it would be INDIRECT and could make the game a bit more interesting due to the added layer of forcing players to trade for currency and therefore make the game a bit more "Heavier"...

IDK. These are just ideas but I will definitely look into it some more and see what is possible from this Point-Of-View (POV). In a way I'm excited because I knew the "Kingdom" cards were NOT final and could need a revision. This may be exactly what the game needs... And it could involve player INTERACTION.

How so? Like a card saying: "Trade 2 Wood to an opponent and earn +1 Gold." The opponent would earn more Wood (+2) and the player would earn +1 Gold (again not from the player but from the "game's bank").

So it's like a way of encouraging trades and exchanges that MUST occur in return for some kind of "credit".

Here's another example: "Trade 4 Wood for 2 Stone and both players earn +1 Gold." The exchange is forced... But the BONUS +1 Gold profits both players.

Things along those lines. And since the "Kingdom" cards are the ONLY cards or Deck in the Game, this would make a LOT of sense and help bring the game to a "Higher Level" from a STRATEGIC POV.

I like this... I will continue to ponder and see how else I can improve the "Kingdom" cards to better improve the players available actions.

For now, that's all I have. But I will continue to "explore" and think some more in this direction what can be done.

Cheers all!

questccg
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I understood 100%

larienna wrote:
...One way to have "conflict" is to use indirect interactions... you have a pool of resources and buildings all players draw from... The things you pick in the common becomes unavailable to the others.

I had deemed that each player has their own "Sandbox". So there would be no POOL of building (for example) because this would NOT work with the "Sandbox" philosophy. I will explain...

larienna wrote:
Else again in puerto rico, the roles you select (actions you make) impact the actions the others can do or not do. This is another kind of indirect interaction.

Players on each turn can: A> Choose to Explore the current Empire (Deploy Workers) or B> Choose to Expand their Empire (Tile Placement) or C> Choose to Exploit their Empire (By producing Resources given their Workers).

So it's ALMOST a 4X game without the "Exterminate" of the other players something that would be deemed "unacceptable" in a Mid-to-Heavy Euro game. I clearly see that the "Kingdom" cards is what is going to make EVERYTHING GLUE together and make the game an "overall" more STRATEGIC game.

Those "Kingdom" cards will allow interactions and it could be a CUSTOM DECK you can choose which cards you want to INJECT into your "personal" Kingdom Deck.

But yes I understood what you mean (@larienna). Some "Trades" since they are necessary, may hamper or harm an opponent's economy based on what they want to do on their NEXT turn or a future turn, etc. etc.

Like for example: "Trade 2 Wood for 1 Stone, both players earn +1 Gold." Is a fair trade... But what if on your TURN you "Needed that extra 1 Stone" and that kind of messes with your plans based on what you were going to do on your NEXT turn.

So YES INDIRECT is what I am leaning towards. And my "Kingdom" cards are exactly the BEST method by which to affect the economies of the players from 2 to 4-Players.

questccg
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Something to consider

I think (not sure - yet!) that the "Kingdom" cards will be comprised of a COMMON deck of FIVE (5) Required cards, since there are FIVE (5) Resources in the game.

Each one of these "Required" cards are Trade cards with "the Bank". Something like this: "Trade X resource(s) for +1 Gold." The hard and very PAINFUL way to earn resources. Those would be the "CORE" Cards and EVERY "Kingdom" Deck would require these FIVE (5) cards.

The then next TWENTY (20) cards are OPTIONAL and part of the Deck-Construction Process. And they would be divided into THREE (3) Categories:

#1> Commerce Cards: all kinds of Trade cards to boost production, etc. etc.

#2> Development Cards: all kinds of Build cards which impact the cost of upgrading your Empire, etc. etc.

#3> Victory Cards: all kind of Scoring cards which give end-game scoring bonuses or push you into the lead (when it comes to SCORING), etc. etc.

This is what I am thinking about ATM. It will take some more time to fully see the ramification of such a different VISION for the game. Like I said if there is a "CORE" set cards and the game can function with only these... The opponent's each have their OWN "Kingdom" Deck and have a most three (3) of the same card in the 25 Card Deck... Could be INTERESTING.

More to think about this... TBD.

questccg
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Some additional thoughts

How about a better DISTRIBUTION:

Commerce Cards: FIVE (5) required for the "Core".

Development Cards: TWO (2) required for the "Core".

Victory Cards: ONE (1) required for the "Core".

***

As mention above the "Commerce" cards are Trades of Resources for Gold. The two (2) required "Development" cards are for Towne and Temple. And lastly the "Victory" card required would be "The Capitol"...

This is EIGTH (8) out of 24 (so 1/3 required and 2/3 CUSTOM). Plus one "re-shuffle your Kingdom Deck" card so 25 in total...

Something along those lines... TBD.

questccg
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Further analysis and I have determined that...

The "default" cards should be for "essential" in preserving the mechanics and mechanisms required to drive the game. This does NOT mean that they are the BEST "Kingdome" cards to have, it just that players each start construction of a Deck with these five (5) cards (for resources).

I'm still working on it. But from a STANDARD POV (Point-Of-View), they need to be "functional" but NOT "optimal".

I have not made any "hard conclusions" but my thought process is something along the lines of:

questccg wrote:
If you have a resource "X" and you trade it for Gold, the BEST CASE conversion is 1 to 1. So 1 Wood becomes 1 Gold. While this sounds GOOD, it is still too good to be the "default". Why? Because you want to have "functional" conversions.

This would be something like: 3 Wood for 1 Gold.

I believe that this sub-optimal conversion should be STANDARD for Wood.

This is one example... It doesn't imply that all other resources should be the same ... Actually quite the contrary: some resources should be worth more than others. And then you get a bit of an economic engine.

My resources go as follows (after looking at other games which have "resources" and I did not want to COPY any of them):

1> Wood from Forests;
2> Stone from Mountains;
3> Food from River & Lakes;
4> Clay from Swamps;
5> Oil from Deserts.

This was like looking a 3 or 4 different games including: Scythe, Catan, Puerto Rico and Lord of Ultima. I just threw in the MMORTS because I had played it a LONG TIME ago (maybe like 10-Years ago) and it seemed to BALANCE between the various games. Puerto Rico has the most varied resources and did not work at all with what I was trying to achieve.

The Bottom line is this:

questccg wrote:
I will set the economic standards based on my OWN judgement. I already have a good feel for it... We shall see how things work out. Remember that one (1) "Serf" per towne and you get them as SOON as the towne is build. There is a Maximum of five (5) townes and therefore five (5) "Serfs".

Something along those lines.

But I have to think some more. Why? Because you DON'T want to FORCE players to have all five (5) types of cities before being able to earn resources of each type. Therefore the NEED for TRADE!

This train of thought has HUGE implications in terms of DEPTH of STRATEGY and how players approach the game.

This will require more thought and we'll see where that leads.

Cheers all!

questccg
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Needs some more thought...

questccg wrote:
1> Wood from Forests;
2> Stone from Mountains;
3> Food from River & Lakes;
4> Clay from Swamps;
5> Oil from Deserts.

Desert resource could be "Glass". Oil or some kind of crude makes sense for a game like "Scythe" where there are Mechs in this alternate universe. I don't have the need for Oil in that way ... And if we are going for a medieval time period, "Glass" from Sand and Potash (Burnt Wood) makes much more sense.

And my initial idea for economic engine is: "Trade 3 X for +1 Gold, where X is the resource in question."

It doesn't need to be PERFECT ... More or less FUNCTIONAL however.

Like I said, I don't want to force players to have to have all FIVE (5) Resources to play the game. That would be actually pretty "dumb" and not very STRATEGIC at all.

But since your DECK is customizable and is tailored to your STYLE of play... This means that a player can focus on the cards that they want to be a part of their "Kingdom" cards and therefore make wise choices in their Deck-Construction process.

More on this later. For it's time for sleep and some late-night thought.

questccg
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So I have FINALLY got some "interesting" ideas...

Serfs allow you to harvest/collect resources to be then used in conjunction with "Kingdom" cards to trade, convert and build. Each time you build a NEW Towne, you get one (1) Serf (for a maximum of 5 serfs).

All that is great and it works pretty decently. I have some more ideas to explore in that vein ... But for now, I will focus on my "Knights".

So "Knights" used to be for a Capitol Level 3 or higher to a maximum of Level 6. Each level above 2 would grant the player +1 "Knight". My thoughts now are that instead of being "Knights" they are "Warlords" (interesting, no?)

How they WORK (as workers) IDK... YET!

I'm just thinking that they could tie into a "Conflict" mechanic of some sorts. I am unsure HOW(?) I will continue to ponder these ideas.

I will report back when I have some additional thoughts related to the "Warlords"... TBD.

Sincerely.

questccg
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Patience is the KEY... Can't force things forwards

So after doing some well deserved thinking, I have finally determined how to use the "Warlords" given a bit of context.

#1> Battle Front

You have four (4) Battle Fronts, one for each one of your Warlords. Each Battle Front prevents the opponent from placing a Game Tile in that "open" direction. What I mean by "open" is that there is NO Game Tile in that direction. Each Warlord can have ONE (1) Battle Front built.

#2> Sack & Pillage

Your "Warlord" acts as a Serf in enemy territory. And collects resources as determined by the Game Tile, Gemstones and the PoA Dice Roll.

#3> Under Occupation

Your "Warlord" can prevent the Upgrading of a Towne, Temple or Capitol. Given that the building is adjacent to the "Warlord". This means one of the four connected Game Tiles.

That's what I got for now... I have some other ideas about the Combat, Battle, Skirmish system which is now a more DIRECT kind of conflict. It's not invasive but very CLEVER using the RPS-5... Which makes for easy battles and is more strategic too. I'll explain this in my next comment.

Cheers!

questccg
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Finally came to an interesting conclusion!

Well I thought about using an RPS-5 which is slightly more complex than an RPS-3 and it would result in Dial with 5 entries. I know that Dials support up to 10 entries ... So instead I examined an RPS-9 which has nine (9) entries and is just as easy to remember:

questccg wrote:
1 Beats 2,3,4,5 and Is Beaten 6,7,8,9. 1 vs 1 = tie

And the rest of the values are cyclic. So if a player choose 5, they Beat 6,7,8,9 and Are Beaten by 1,2,3,4. 5 vs 5 = tie...

This is FANTASTIC! It's easier to remember than an RPS-5 since it's then next 4 beat and then the subsequent 4 are beaten with the same value as being a tie.

This is much better to visualize and resolve than SYMBOLS (Which I was going for before I realized that numbers are easier to work with). This kind of direct conflict makes the game much more strategic TBH.

I am very pleased with this RPS-9 solution since it is so elegant. Couldn't ask for a better solution! Let me know your own thoughts and what you think!

X3M
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Just got back from vacation

I see now why you want to use numbers. Because the follow up. It makes more sense now.

Still, if you can think of 9 different "names" and have an order of the alphabet. It would still make sense too, right?

questccg
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Yeah but it makes comprehension more challenging...

X3M wrote:
I see now why you want to use numbers. Because the follow up. It makes more sense now.

Indeed the numbers are SIMPLER since you don't need to REMEMBER anything. So-to-speak...

X3M wrote:
Still, if you can think of 9 different "names" and have an order of the alphabet. It would still make sense too, right?

I guess you could go from A to I... But the "The Game Crafter" (TGC) dials only have limited amount of surface for mostly pricing an Icon or a Number. I've chosen to go with "Numbers" because it is much more intuitive that Icons... But this is all PRE-Prototype so things could change as I playtest the game.

questccg
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I tried to make LETTERS instead of NUMBERS... But

Here's what I put together:

Letter Action Name Tactical Flavor
A Advance Push forward into contested ground with momentum.
B Breach Break through enemy fortifications or formations.
C Counter React swiftly to exploit an opponent's exposed move.
D Deflect Redirect or absorb an incoming blow or tactic.
E Envelop Surround the enemy to limit their movement.
F Feint Deceive the enemy with a false movement or trick.
G Guard Take a defensive stance to protect assets or units.
H Harass Use quick, light attacks to weaken and frustrate.
I Intimidate Undermine the enemy’s confidence with dominance.

That would make the letters be "A" to "I" and make it a BIT HARDER to figure out... But same cyclic principle. Just with Letters instead of Numbers.

I personally will stick with NUMBERS. Why??? Because they are "International" and that means no matter what the language of the players, numbers can be understood by ALMOST everyone TBH (unless you are a child and too young to comprehend basic Mathematics).

But yeah you could use letters as I have mentioned above!

questccg
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While I have a Combat Mechanic and ...

Also a way to cause Havoc with the opponent(s)... The one thing I am now MISSING is a way to ensure there is some kind of "cooldown" period for Warlords.

I mean it sucks real bad if you need to WASTE time and resources to defeat a Warlord and then the next turn the opponent returns the favor by playing another in nearly the identical position.

More thoughts on that for certain...

Cheers all!

questccg
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I figured I'd share your PM with everyone since it was SMART!

X3M wrote:
You seek a form of summoning sickness?

You can have different regions have different summoning sicknesses.

You can also have a summoning sickness on a spot that was previously occupied. This could even be tracked, to have different summoning sickness countdowns.

For example, you defeat a warlord on position A. Now there is a countdown placed of 2. So the other player can only place a new one on position B. Unless the player waits for 2 rounds.

Perhaps a warlord is summoned and waits for a couple of turns. You could handle this by having the warlord card been placed in the "next to summon" spot. You could even use a countdown here.

Ok so that makes TOTAL SENSE! I think I simply need five (5) cards numbered 1 to 5 and they work as follows:

+ Cooldown = 2 rounds + Number of gemstones.

+ Maximum Cooldown = 2 + 3 = 5 rounds.

+ Minimum Cooldown = 2 + 0 = 2 rounds.

That's what I got from YOUR IDEA (Summoning Sickness). Or it can be a SMALL TRACK: Green, Lime, Yellow, Orange, and Red. Like in the "Game of Life", there is a track of colors and you wager which number the wheel will land.

That is also another possibility. But yeah ... I get your idea.

that could definitely WORK! Thanks @Ramon... Very insightful and muchly appreciated!

It's amazing how SIMPLE ideas can be and not be obvious to the designer. @X3M help actually got me understanding what he meant with "Summoning Sickness" ergo the variations in rounds according to the amount of Gemstones on the occupied Game Tile (0 to 3)...

SUPER HELPFUL FOR SURE!!! AMAZING! Thank you again ... Definitely a GOOD mechanic.

Maybe the TRACK could go from 0 to 5:

"Blue 0", "Green 1", "Lime 2", "Yellow 3", "Orange 4", and "Red 5"

Maybe that makes things a bit clearer. Like you suggested VARYING "Summoning Sickness" (cooldown) based on Gemstones... But you can put into the game a sort of PAYMENT to the opponent. So for example, Player #2 conquered my Warlord and it was on a 3-Gemstone tile. That means the "cooldown" = 5. If I want to DEPLOY a Warlord it will cost me 1 Gold +5 Extra Gold to do it immediately.

Something like that could be possible... Not 100% sure. Just some extra ideas following this COOL concept.

I will think about it some more. If anyone has EXTRA ideas, feel free to share... Cheers!

questccg
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This has got me thinking some more...

And what I've come up with is this:

+ 1st Serf Costs FREE.

+ 2nd Serf Costs 1 Food.

+ 3rd Serf Costs 1 Food + 1 Gold.

+ 4th Serf Costs 2 Food + 1 Gold.

+ 5th Serf Costs 3 Food + 1 Gold.

What this means is that there is ONE (1) "Kingdom" Card for SERFS. And then ONE (1) "Kingdom" Card for WARLORDS.

+ 1st Warlord Costs 2 Food.

+ 2nd Warlord Costs 2 Food + 1 Gold.

+ 3rd Warlord Costs 3 Food + 1 Gold.

+ 4th Warlord Costs 3 Food + 2 Gold.

That makes the total amount of "CORE" "Kingdom" cards equal: 3 + 2 = 5 cards.

Then there are the Cities and Temples... TBD. This needs more thought as of the present ... Because I need to figure that these 2 Buildings ALSO require a "Kingdom" card too... AGAIN "CORE" Cards.

I will let this simmer a bit and see what comes of my ideas!

Sincerely.

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