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Pinnacle - New Playtest Rules

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Noah McQ
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It's a Party Game

As much as I love questccg, I think he has the wrong idea. As a party game, it's imperative that Pinnacle doesn't have have too much mechanical depth: it can't have too many rules.

questccg wrote:
My own personal feeling (and this is my impressions only) is that the current proposed game is much too simple. When we discussed things like Networked Paths and things like "Optimal Play", that was starting to "beef-up" the design and make it into more adult content.

Is this a high-strategy game that needs to strive for "adult content"? Or do adults like to get together sometimes to enjoy a handful of good mechanics?
Steve wrote:
This gives off a re-skinned FAMILY FEUD vibe. That's not a bad thing.

People like Family Feud, and I imagine they'll want to interact with the core mechanic of Pinnacle.
This game reminds me most of Pictionary. The game is about drawing pictures under pressure, and the board and cards merely supplement that: telling you what to draw and not much else. I fear that oxygen tanks, avalanches (the Thin Air Zone, a little bit) detract from the core mechanic instead of guiding it. However,
Steve wrote:
Simply put, it follows the TRIVIAL PURSUIT path whereby once you know the answer, the challenge is gone.

Because of this, combined with the inability to conduct THOUSANDS of surveys, strategic depth will be what gives this sufficient replayability. The challenge will be minimizing mechanical depth (rules) and maximizing strategic depth (ways to use the rules). Off the dome, perhaps having simple beneficial/detrimental spaces players would want to try to land on/avoid so they would intentionally guess the 2nd or 3rd answer. Spaces like "send your opponent backwards" like questccg suggested.

Lastly, in my experience, it's highly frustrating to make no progress on a turn without consciously choosing a high-risk option. If the Thin Air Zone is able to reduce a team's movement to nothing, then the Thin Air Zone should be really small, like 3 successful movements at max

questccg
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Hmm... Maybe it's because you don't know...

The current proposed version has a LINEAR VICTORY TRACK (like Candyland) and a Deck of Question Cards. That's it. So if you want to play Family Feud ... Go for it. I'm just suggesting that a somewhat "beefed-up" version could attract more of a crowd.

Nobody is interested in games like "Candyland" and such. Even if the focus is ON the "Trivia", I've answered some Survey Questions and the content is very GenX or Boomers (older-style/content). One question was "Name one of the Bee Gees songs." Well the Bee Gees are not on Millennials and GenY playlists. I'm pretty sure about that.

So the "Trivia" portion is for an older aged group, not children.

Furthermore the IDEA of "Teams" rather than players is ALSO questionable. why? Because for there to be at MINIMUM 2 Teams, you need 4 Players. And so why not leave it as a 4 Player game...? Teams while the idea is Family Play... How often does Family get together to PLAY GAMES?!?!

It would be better to state from 2 to 4 Players, Team play for 6 or more players. Again... Will people rush to even PLAY this game if it's not FUN for all ages.

The idea of a Victory Track to keep position is acceptable. But that's virtually the ONLY component aside from the Deck of Question cards... Like @Steve suggested:

Steve wrote:
If this game is going to be about climbing a mountain of sorts, the path should be roughly pyramidic (Is that even a word?) as well. It isn't although, in the case of "A," it most definitely can be twisted to be that. "B" has some sort of alternating or branching paths and I don't know how difficult it would be in adapting that path to be more pyramidic.

That's what I suggested: a network path like a map or Graph that allows multiple paths to the summit.

The "Designer" says he prefers the LINEAR PATH. Again it's 100% the OP's game. I'm just explaining that how can @Noah McQ possibly make suggestions of the top of his hat without even playtesting the game.

Like the TAZ only being 3 nodes. How can you make any sense of such a "trivial" suggestion when you have not playtested the game to figure out that is the correct design direction?!?!

I propose IDEAS. Ideas to be tried and then figure out what to do with those ideas and how does the game mesh together.

I don't tell people to do "unproven" suggestions of having the TAZ only 3 spaces... Makes no sense to me and proves that you are TELLING the designer what he SHOULD DO. I don't do that. I suggest... It's the OP's design let them figure out what works best for them.

We can agree to disagree... I think the design is TOO SIMPLE.

I just recently threw out the IDEA of having TWO (2) DECKS:

#1> A Question Deck ... which has three (3) difficulties and ONE "Event" for only one of those difficulties.

#2> An Event Deck ... Which has a bunch of events and items to help the climbers (or hinder them too...)

All that is only ONE more DECK. And all of a sudden you have a WORLD of possibilities.

Again. This is an IDEA worthwhile trying and seeing if it works or not. Like I said... IMHO I think the current design is way too simple and it will get looked over when competing for time from other Family games.

That's just my opinion.

Sincerely.

questccg
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Please don't misquote me...

Noah McQ wrote:
Off the dome, perhaps having simple beneficial/detrimental spaces players would want to try to land on/avoid so they would intentionally guess the 2nd or 3rd answer. Spaces like "send your opponent backwards" like questccg suggested.

Please don't misquote me...

I said having Event Cards which lead to some ACTION (Bonuses or Penalties) could be good for the game. But I would put those events INTO a SEPARATE DECK. Why because nobody is going to play "Trivia Candyland". It's too infantile.

Like I said ... SOLELY focusing on the Questions is the WRONG strategy. I've already explained that he would need to "Reverse" his way of thinking when it comes to the Trivia Questions themselves.

Instead of "Name of song sung by the Bee Gees." I stated that it would be better to "Name of song sung by Taylor Swift." She's got over 100+ songs in her catalog already. And that's something "kids", "Millennials" and "GenYs" could be more interested in.

One question even I could not answer: "Name someone who has lived over 100 years dead or alive." IDK ANYONE BY NAME who has lived so long. They're obviously NOT the most FAMOUS of people. Because I haven't heard of ANY of them. Yeah there is a on online Wiki with a list of them (dead or alive). But again, I have yet to have even heard their names... Nobody FAMOUS that I know of...

So the Trivia is not the "hottest" thing going for the game either. Yeah it MAY be "Family Feud"-like... But do you see KIDS on Family Feud??? No... It's mostly for ADULTS. Same for the direction of this TRIVIA Game. But... Wait a minute... We said it's NOT FOR ADULTS!?!? Well then who the heck is this game supposed to be FOR???

I don't want to discuss it more... Because @Raydad909 has yet to report back and tell us what he thinks (other than telling me in a PM that the game will have a linear track and a deck of questions). Something I already told him that I think is TOO SIMPLE.

It's no point to discuss further ... Because there is no clear direction. Until the OP comes back and tells us what HE wants to do...

Sincerely.

Note #1: And I wouldn't put ALL the Events into the rulebook. Right now he has 2 to 3 spaces that he put into the rulebook. To explain them because you cannot figure them out from the Track. If he makes Events a separate Deck... Where on each card he can explain each one in detail there will be no need to have a section in the rulebook listing each event. KISS.

Raydad909
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We're still talking about

We're still talking about this? I better get back over here, then! Sorry for being AWOL.

Say, shoutout to Noah for joining the conversation. Check your PM's when you get the chance, I sent you an updated copy of the rulebook.

That's right, I've made some changes, including eliminating the oxygen tanks, turning the bonus spaces (the special icons) into chips that you can place face down at the start of each game to increase re-playability, and (I think) we made the Thin Air Zone a bit simpler to win so it's not too much of a slog. Here's what the new mountain looks like:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qsr2a9Ow2ncP_2TyB9mBiUT2vRTjR-TA/view?u...

Still debating on how many dots should be on the board. I'm thinking 8 in the Base Camp, 7 in the Ice Wall, and 4 in Thin Air (plus the Summit). Of course, playtesting will help me decide on if the game needs to be sped up or slowed down.

BTW, if anyone wants to help me playtest Pinnacle or take one of the surveys for the game (or both), feel free to drop me a PM.

questccg
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Let me be "constructive" instead of "critical"...

This is about the "Question" cards. I was thinking since I took multiple surveys you may want to INDICATE on the front of the card ... AGE GROUP. What do I mean?

questccg wrote:
What I mean is on the Question-side (not the answers) you put at the bottom of the card the RECOMMENDED AGE for the all THREE (3) Questions.

Why do this??? Well because IF your intent is to have a FAMILY game with TEAMS (I have my own opinion about this... But this is not the place for that...), it will help CHILDREN to become more INVOLVED in the game. Like "For ages 9+" is a kids question and the TEAM can ask their child (in their team) to know what they think is an appropriate response.

Again the reasoning is to encourage ALL players to HAVE FUN. And that means answering and guessing questions correctly. Sort of a bit like "quarterbacking" but to help CHILDREN (or kids) be more involved in the game.

SECONDLY...

This method of identifying the AGE of each Question Card is GOOD... Because it allows you to BALANCE the game. So you can figure out which cards belong to which category of players. And it allows you to BUILD "better" surveys knowing that ONE (1) SURVEY is for Millennials and another is for GenX. etc. etc.

Again all ideas to HELP improve your process, the game itself and ensure that there is some kind of "balance" so that everyone can be included in the Question phase of the game... Knowing who knows what answers.

Like I saw a question: "Name an animal in the Farmer in the dell." That could be a KIDS question or not. Depending on how the child was brought up. I've heard the song but "guessed" COW ... Because it's a kids song and it's got to have a COW or a PIG or a HORSE... One of those.

But STATING the AGE of the Questions on a CARD could go a LONG way in IMPROVING the game making it more FUN because sometimes you may be getting too many ADULT questions and kids may not be a part of the FUN.

Again just some extra ideas.

Cheers!

Noah McQ
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Rulebook Version 7

I checked those PMs, and yes, I saw that new rulebook. You might want to share it here for everyone's collective scrutiny. I like what was done with the chips: opportunities for bonus questions that the team has some control over whether to risk it. and the Dummy Chips for shocking twists

Raydad909
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First off, Noah, thanks for

First off, Noah, I'm glad you liked my new chips angle. Second, I'll abide to your request over sharing the updated rulebook. The link to it you'll find below:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r_Amzs8InRvFqKvCW5pNC6OFvnQTEl6R/edi...

questccg
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Pinnacle and Card counts

I just saw that Veritasium made a Trivia Board Game called: "Elements of Truth".

Anyways it's a Party/Trivia game with over 800 questions on cards in various Categories... For people with big brains (like scientists, mathematicians, engineers, etc. etc.)

The thing I took away is that they have 800 questions which begs to differ with "Pinnacle": do you have around 800 questions???

I'm guessing that would mean about over 250+ questions coming at three (3) per card.

Just some world news that could affect how you make your game. Here is the TIMESTAMPED Video/URL:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBluLfX2F_k&t=2653s

Take a LOOK, they made around $1.0M+ USD in sales... 13,000+ backers. Guess you might want to take this into consideration!

Cheers.

Note #1: After taking a deeper look... You could get by with around 200 cards or 600 questions (based on how that Party/Trivia game did). I don't know what your pool of cards is... But something along those lines would be good considering that you have a different style of game.

Note #2: And I would guess these a people who KNOW what works and required for some replayability. I mean they are Scientists, Mathematicians and Engineers... So they are some of the brightest people out-there. If they say that their "cheapest" offer is 200 Question cards ... Well then I think Pinnacle should have at minimum 200 Questions cards with three (3) levels of difficulty on the cards themselves... That makes for a total of 600 Questions... Not a BIG as Trivial Pursuit... But never-the-less I'm pretty sure these guys playtested that lowest reward tier too...

Raydad909
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Let's talk card count!

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, questcq! Doing some research on "Elements of Truth", which I never heard of before this posting, it sounds like it's Wits & Wagers: Discovery Channel Edition. However, if you're into that sort of thing, I guess it might be worth your time.

As for how many cards we'll have, I'm thinking we'll have 150 cards with 3 questions each on it. Doing some quick multiplication, that comes out to 450 questions. You think that would be enough for a first run or you feel we should have more?

questccg
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Card count

I think 150 cards with 3 questions each is REASONABLE. 450 Questions with 1,350 answers is GOOD IMHO. Since in the Green Zone (Basecamp) you only need 1 of 3 answers to move forwards, that's great because you don't need to have the Pinnacle Answer to move forwards.

Sounds good to me! Cheers.

questccg
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Everything looks good...

But I saw that in the RULES you made the Pinnacle Answer in the TAZ = +2 Movement. Seeing as the LAST version of the board (or Mountain) was that there were ONLY "3 Spaces" at the top... I would have the Pinnacle Answer by only +1.

IDK it's your call. And playtesting will reveal what works best.

I'm just saying I don't like "overly-easy" ending which just ruin the game because it only takes 1 correct answer.

How? Well on the Mountain wall earn +2 Spaces and move up into the TAZ by +2. Gives you only 1 Space and the Summit. My guess that's only ONE (1) correct HARD question and so it requires only ONE (1) GOOD ANSWER and that team wins (with the +2 movement in the TAZ).

But I get that the STALLING in the TAZ is also a problem. Could this be a sort of "catch-up mechanic"??? Making the game tighter and harder to win... IDK.

However this is a question of playtesting and seeing different ways of going up the mountain.

I'm not saying YOU SHOULD change the TAZ movement rules... I'm just saying maybe playtest a few variations and let us know what YOU FEEL is BEST.

Cheers!

Raydad909
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Rule Revamp

Funny you mentioned the Pinnacle rules because I spent part of my weekend rewriting them a bit. Don't worry, all the mountain sections and their point values are still intact. The main changes involve making the
Mountain Movement Reference Card essential and killing off the "Shrinking Mountain" sudden death. That has now been replaced with "The Summit Challenge"...and it sounds similar to what "questccg" recommend in his previous post. So maybe he was on to something.

That said, here's the link to my latest draft of the rules. Tell me what you think:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1icGiV-YBNHjvHKtnI53VGqRsGhduIB9c/edi...

In case you're wondering what the gameboard looks like (Note: It's not the final product)...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qsr2a9Ow2ncP_2TyB9mBiUT2vRTjR-TA/view?u...

questccg
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Ok... I've re-read the Summit Challenge twice and...

I'm still not sure I understand HOW(?) this challenge is supposed to work. Looks like there are a bunch of OPTIONS and it's a bit UNCLEAR about HOW TO WIN. Sorry that's just me re-reading this section a couple of times and NOT being sure.

***

So when a Team reaches the SUMMIT, they must ANSWER one (1) Red Question and give 1 of the Top 3 Answers.

This does not GUARANTEE a Win... Now the "stealing" the victory is perhaps a bit confusing. Let me continue my thought process and we'll see HOW(?) it is meant to work.

So where the confusion lies... Has to do with the OPPOSING Team being the READER and the Pinnacle Answer being chosen by the eligible winning Team.

***

So IF the Team at the SUMMIT chooses the #1 Answer... The Opposing Team gets to STEAL??? Remember they are the READERS for the SUMMIT Team's Answer.

Do you choose another Red Question and have the SUMMIT Team become the READER role to ensure fairness?!

But that's not the only confusion that I get...

***

If the SUMMIT team is "blocked" by the Opposing Team ANSWERING the Pinnacle Answer from a "NEW Question Card" (This is introduced for fairness as the Stealing team - the READER got to see all the ANSWERS to the SUMMIT Question) but this can ONLY be done ONCE.

So if you reach the SUMMIT TWICE (2x) You cannot be blocked a second time. Only once.

***

I've proposed some refinements for fairness (Switching of READER role when the NEW Steal Question is chosen) and as you stated REQUIRES the Pinnacle Answer to Block the opposing Team.

***

This is how I interpreted the rules. Maybe I misunderstood something because I felt like the "Steal" was a bit unclear WHO DOES WHAT. It's clear that it can ONLY occur ONCE (1x) but the logistics of the Question and the switching of roles was a bit unclear.

If you have additional questions or my feedback is unclear, please reply to this comment and I will do my best to explain the challenge that I raised.

Cheers!

Note #1: And if you are unsure... I can simply state that in a game where there are only 2-Players (1 per Team) this means that the READER of the SUMMIT Question knows all the ANSWERS when he confirms that the LEADING Team (or Player) guesses one of the 3 correct SUMMIT answers. For this to work you would need to REVERSE the Roles and have the LEADING player ask a NEW question and require the "stealing" Team to get the Pinnacle Answer (#1 on the NEW question) in order to "steal" the Victory!

Raydad909
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Maybe some of the language in

Maybe some of the language in the SUMMIT section was a bit confusion. I have updated it a bit in the Word doc in the hopes that it's a bit clearer. Maybe I should put in a short "For a two-player game" section as well?

"Questccg", if you're reading this, your feedback was a bit unclear. If you'd like to explain the challenge you raised, I'd love to hear it.

questccg
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I have re-read the rules and...

Let me explain because I checked the rule AGAIN and the confusion is still there. To recap, it goes something like this:

#1> The Climbing Team reaches the SUMMIT. Time for the SUMMIT CHALLENGE.

#2> The Climbing Team answers are a QUESTION. If they Answer with the #1 (Pinnacle) Answer, they WIN the game. If they Answer with the #2 or #3 the opposing Team can answer the Pinnacle Answer to STEAL.

That's where there is a PROBLEM. The opponent is the READER and he ALREADY knows the answers for the SUMMIT Challenge Question. Do you see my point???

#3> Instead the READER should be the Climbing Team and a NEW Question should be asked of the "Steal" Team ... Only a Pinnacle answer (#1) will suffice.

#4> If the "Steal" Team gets the Pinnacle answer, the SUMMIT Team goes back 2 spaces...

Do you understand NOW??? The issue is with the READER seeing all the answers and knowing the Pinnacle Answer on the Question for the SUMMIT Challenge.

I don't think I can explain it any CLEARER. The process is broken if the READERS do NOT switch roles and a NEW "Steal" Question Card is chosen...

Raydad909
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OK, OK...I catch your drift.

OK, OK...I catch your drift. After some deliberation, I thought up of a trio of alternatives. Feel free to tell me which one you like best: 

Alternative #1:  Keep the rules I have in the current draft as is. The only amendment I'd make is that in a "Summit Steal" situation, I'll write in that The Reader (who knows the answer) CAN'T participate in the steal. Only the reader's teammate(s), who haven't seen the card yet, are the only ones allowed to attempt it. Only in a two-player (1-on-1) game would the new question rule "questccg" brought up would go into effect. 

Alternative #2: We simplify it a bit. Instead of a steal, when a team reaches the summit, they get one final question from the Thin Air Zone. To win, they MUST provide the Pinnacle (#1) answer.

* If you get #1: You win immediately.
* If you get #2 or #3: You don't win, but you stay on the Summit ("stalling" in Thin Air, so to speak).
* If you miss the list: Move back 2 spaces.

If a team moves back two spaces, but reaches the Summit a second time (or any subsequent attempts), naming any of the Top 3 answers wins the game. 

Alternative #3: Scrap the Summit rule altogether and bring back the "Shrinking Mountain" rule. When you reach the summit, you win. That's it. The end. Hey, it works for Chutes & Ladders when you hit the #100 square.

questccg
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I like Alternative #2... It's the most NATURAL

So yeah I think Alternative #2 which is a bit STANDARD makes it a better candidate for a replacement to "stealing".

- If you get the Pinnacle Answer (#1) that Team wins.

- If you get #2 or #3 you don't win but you stay in position for a RETRY.

- If you Miss the list: Move back 2 spaces.

***

My only difference is that this is the ONLY way to win. The "done it once so I don't need to do it again" confuses me. I'd keep it STANDARD that to WIN THE GAME you MUST "answer the Pinnacle Answer".

But my variation IS:

questccg wrote:
Each time you ATTEMPT to WIN by guessing the Pinnacle Answer, you go DOWN a difficulty level.

So FIRST TIME is RED, SECOND TIME is YELLOW and THIRD TIME is GREEN. Making it easier and easier to WIN...

Something like that could be KEWL and be in-spirit with what you wanted some kind of RETRY but a bit easier...

Let me know if this alternative works for you:

So it's like ALTERNATIVE #2 with REPEAT questions being less and less difficult.

Cheers!

Note #1: This means that the SUMMIT Team gets "stalled" and the opposing team can reach the SUMMIT while the original team is waiting to answer a Pinnacle Answer... It's like a STALL (rather than a "Steal")...

Raydad909
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Interesting, interesting, I'm

Interesting, interesting, I'm intrigued.

So I've spent the entire afternoon writing and rewriting rules and came up with not one, but TWO different rules for THE SUMMIT section of the rulebook. Here's what I came up with; comments on them are welcome:

THE SUMMIT #1

Reaching the summit puts your team one answer away from victory. However, the mountain guards its peak fiercely. 

The Summit Challenge
When your team reaches the Summit: 

• The Reader draws a new Thin Air Zone (red) question.

• Your team gives one final answer. 

Name the Pinnacle (#1) Answer → You win instantly.

If your answer is #2 or #3 → The mountain wobbles…and the other team gets one last chance to steal the victory. Enter…

The Summit Steal 

A Steal is triggered when the climbing team gives a #2 or #3 answer.

During a Steal:
• Only players who have not seen the answers may attempt the steal (In 2-player games, see "1-on-1 Summit" for the alternate Steal rule).

• The Reader may not participate.

• The opposing team gets one guess at the Pinnacle Answer.
If they succeed, The climbing team is knocked off the summit and moves back 2 spaces. Play then continues. 

If they fail or choose not to steal, The climbing team wins the game.

Final Ascent (Loop-Breaker)

If a team reaches the Summit again, the mountain relents. 

On any second Summit attempt, naming any Top 3 answer wins the game. 
No Summit Steal is allowed.

2-PLAYER SUMMIT STEAL (1-on-1) 
In a two-player game, the Reader already knows the answer, so a normal Steal isn't possible. If the climbing team gives a #2 or #3 answer: 

1. The Reader draws a new card and reads the Thin Air (Red) question to themselves. 

2. The Reader then attempts to name the Pinnacle (#1) answer to that new question. 

If the Reader succeeds: The Steal works! The climbing player moves back 2 spaces. 

If the Reader fails: The climbing player wins immediately.

****************
THE SUMMIT #2

Reaching the summit puts your team one answer away from victory. However, Mount Versurveyus has one final demand: To win the game, you must nail one more Pinnacle Answer.

THE FINAL CHALLENGE
When your team reaches the Summit: 
• The Reader draws a new Thin Air Zone (red) question.

• Your team gives one final answer, aiming for the Pinnacle (#1). 

If you give the Pinnacle Answer → You win immediately. 

The mountain is conquered. Glory is yours. But if not...

HANGING AT THE SUMMIT (The Stall)
Every time a team attempts to win and fails to name the Pinnacle Answer, the next attempt becomes more forgiving.

Think of it as the crowd widening.

• First attempt → Thin Air (Red) question

• Second attempt → Ice Wall (Yellow) question

• Third attempt and beyond → Base Camp (Green) question 

You still must name the Pinnacle Answer to win, but the question gets more obvious as the mountain wears down.

WHILE YOU’RE HANGING…
While one team is Hanging at the Summit:

• The opposing team continues taking turns as normal.

• They may climb the mountain and even reach the Summit themselves.

• It’s entirely possible for both teams to be fighting for the final answer.

questccg
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I think SUMMIT #1 is complicated for no added value

My choice is SUMMIT #2. Sounds more logical in how there doesn't need to be a 1 vs. 1 version in 2-Player games for SUMMIT #1 to work.

I usually prefer mechanics that are UNIFORM. That's my personal preference. I don't like "outliers" or special conditions (like it's normally like THIS but in one case it's like THAT...)

But that's just my opinion.

You do what is best for your game. I'm just expressing an opinion... Maybe @Noah McQ can chime in with his input.

Maybe PM him ... As I have not seen him for a while. Only IF you want a 2nd opinion. Since he is the only other member that contributed to your game. Or @Steve too... You could PM him too... Since he too manifested some interest in your progress too...

You've got a couple people you can ask what THEY think is better.

Cheers!

questccg
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Have any of your playtest come to some conclusions???

Just wondering if you had the chance to review the options and try to see which is best for YOUR game. Haven't heard back from you... So I was wondering if you have had the chance to test both of those two (2) SUMMIT Challenges???

Hoping you are developing your game with each new playtest and solidifying the "core" experience with the SUMMIT Challenges (which works better and which you prefer...)

Sincerely.

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