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[GDS] JUNE 2015 "The Enemy of My Enemy...." - Critiques

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ElKobold
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Quote:I'm unclear, though,

Quote:

I'm unclear, though, on how this game asks players to work together.

Imagine you've already collected 8 wenches.

And there's a fresh quest with a wench reward which was just put in play. So it's not urgent. However, there's another quest which will fail next turn. You are faced with a decision - do you pursue your own goal - and complete a quest with a wench reward, or do you complete that other quest, which doesn't bring you closer to victory, but which might lead to everybody losing, unless you do it. That's scenario 1.

More complicated scenario is when there's some super-nasty quest, with lots of monsters. So players have to go on a quest and defeat _some_ monsters, so that the next player had a chance to complete it.

Play-tests showed that it's impossible to win without at lest some cooperation.

Quote:

The biggest suggestion I'd make in revising this game is to look for a more unusual theme. It seems like dungeon-crawling adventure games are pretty common these days (Boss Monster, Welcome to the Dungeon, Pixel Hero).

Ah, but this game is different. Because the cards you play (heroes) have bad effects, rather than good, as usual in such games. And the more complicated the quest is, the more bad effects you have to play, while not pushing the situation too far.

You are, essentially, leading a group of loosers, instead of heroes. I`m not aware of a game with similar theme.

There are heroes which put additional quests in play, heroes which advance quests of particular color, heroes which force you to discard rewards or other heroes etc.

So each turn you have to compromise. Sometimes you have the right set of heroes to do the quest you want, but you chose a different one, because the combination of the hero effects would be too devastating and lead to everybody losing.

Quote:
Also, it isn't until you get well into the example discussion that it's clear the game is supposed to be funny.

Well, wasn't it clear from the intro and even the name itself?

debiant
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The Tribe I thought this was

The Tribe I thought this was an interesting game that read as a cross between Stone Age and Cosmic Encounter. I liked the simultaneous play but the disaster at the end of each round seemed like a tacked on cooperative aspect to a game that was really meant to be competitive with alliances. The game still sounded like a great deal of fun.

Escape Reality I thought this was a very clever theme and I also enjoyed that the decision point forced players to decide between themselves and the group. I was concerned with people throwing the game if they got too far behind but on rereading I'm not sure that would necessarily be an issue. This probably should have finished in the top 3 for me. I don't like reality television but I think it's a really solid idea for a board game if executed well.

Bottleton Prize Garden

The theme and gameplay elements here seemed solid but I didn't see there being any cooperative aspect in this one.

Loot and Wenches

You are effectively taking 50 percent of the population and treating them as a commodity. It doesn't sound fun, engaging, or thought provoking, it sounds like a really awkward time around my gaming table.

I would really ask you to think critically about themes and how they will make female gamers feel about: you as a designer, how you view women, your game, and how our hobby as a whole views women.

ElKobold
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debiant wrote:You are

debiant wrote:

You are effectively taking 50 percent of the population and treating them as a commodity. It doesn't sound fun, engaging, or thought provoking, it sounds like a really awkward time around my gaming table.

The choice of name 'wenches' instead of 'NPCs' or 'Captives' or something else, as well as making them nothing more but a victory point, was an informed decision.
The very theme of my game is making fun of the objectification of women and other tropes in the sword and sorcery genre.
Have you ever read any of the Conan stories, for example?

I was testing this game with female gamers. And there was no problem with it. Since most of the female gamers I know, have this thing called sense of humor and can draw a line between a game and reality.

To illustrate: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=korgoth+of+barbaria

Quote:
I would really ask you to think critically about themes and how they will make female gamers feel about: you as a designer, how you view women, your game, and how our hobby as a whole views women.

I would really ask you to act maturely and not judge a person you don't know, based on the concept of a game he have posted on the forum. This is ridiculous.

andymorris
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Thoughts for today

Bottleton: I like the use of pie discs to show the growth. I think rolling for weather is fine since you can't control the weather. I didn't think the cooperative element was quite as strong as some of the other entries and I wasn't a big fan of the way the movement was setup.

Loot: I enjoyed this write up. I liked how the tone and format were a bit different. You did a great job of describing the game succinctly in order to fit a full example into the word limit. I like the use misfit heros. However, again I didn't think the cooperative element was as strong as some of the other entries.

MarkJindra
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Where The Wenches At?

Bottleton Prize Garden

In Seattle where I live we have things called "pea patches" which are essentially a community garden. I could see this scenario taking place in one of those community gardens. This game would probably sell well at the boutique shops here in the northwest where the local hipsters shop. I do think more emphasis needs to be put on the cooperation needed to get rid of pests for it to truly fit the theme but this was by bronze medalist.

Loot & Wenches

I could not for the life of me figure out how this fit the contest premise. What was the reason the players were forced to work together? And the example wall of text was so hard to read that it really turned me off to this one. I personally love the politically incorrectness of making wenches a commodity. I know that many game companies out there make a point of staying away from something like that. Light hearted or not you will alienate some portion of the game buying audience. I am not one of those people and I would like to see this idea pursued further.

Great job to everyone this month.

I look forward to July.

=M=

ElKobold
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andymorris wrote: again I

andymorris wrote:
again I didn't think the cooperative element was as strong as some of the other entries.

MarkJindra wrote:
I could not for the life of me figure out how this fit the contest premise. What was the reason the players were forced to work together?

Help me out here. Apparently I fail to explain something in the mechanics.

Players work together in completing quests in time. There are multiple quests available for completion at any given moment. IF 3 quests of one color would fail, it leads to a defeat for everyone. So players play together against a game.

If there's a quest that no-one is interested in completing, because they don't need those particular rewards, someone will still have to spend cards, so that all players wouldn't lose. Pursuing common goals, over personal goal.

If all players will only pursue their own agendas they will all lose. Guaranteed.

What am I missing in my explanation?

Hook
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Prize garden

Thank for the comments. I appreciate the feedback on this. I seem to have failed explaining why pests move around on the board and are equal troubble :)

For loot and wrenches:
Well written theme and a fun example. I also have a hard time to see why it is really competitive / the individual goal. Soo I see on your post above that you don't understand why all fail to see the coop part. When I read your game I see there is corporation but I don't feel it is very motivated.

andymorris
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Loot

ElKobold, I understand the cooperative part is there, but I just liked the way the coop worked in some of the other entries better. That doesn't take anything away from how the game itself would work outside the context of this GDS. With 14 entries it was hard to settle on three, especially, as I said in an earlier comment, I think this was one of the most balanced contests I've been in (this is my 14th time entering the GDS). I'm glad to here your play tests have gone well.

debiant
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ElKobold wrote:Quote:I would

ElKobold wrote:

Quote:
I would really ask you to think critically about themes and how they will make female gamers feel about: you as a designer, how you view women, your game, and how our hobby as a whole views women.

I would really ask you to act maturely and not judge a person you don't know, based on the concept of a game he have posted on the forum. This is ridiculous.

I don't think it's ridiculous but I do think the tone of my initial response was too reproachful.

Wenches aren't objects they are people. Your title is the early modern equivalent to; Money and Bitches. If I had sensed that the game was a satire that somehow twisted the objectification of women, I would have taken the theme as satire, but I don't feel that it was presented in that manner in your entry.

I'm not judging you as a person. I'm judging your game idea based on the brief you delivered and the anti-female message it appears to convey. If my response came across otherwise, then I apologize.

Also, having a sense of humor doesn't preclude having concerns about how our community welcomes people.

Regards,
Gary

ElKobold
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debiant wrote:Wenches aren't

debiant wrote:
Wenches aren't objects they are people.

Once again, there's difference between an imaginary world and a real world.
A game where you play an evil master mind for example, doesn't mean that the the game designer encourages players to be evil and torture people or something.

Quote:
I'm not judging you as a person.

Quote:
...and how they will make female gamers feel about: you as a designer, how you view women

I`m pretty sure the last part is not about the game, rather a personal attack.

TowerWizard
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More responses to comments regarding the Tribe

Lonebluewolf: Thanks for your comments!

Debiant:

debiant wrote:
I liked the simultaneous play but the disaster at the end of each round seemed like a tacked on cooperative aspect to a game that was really meant to be competitive with alliances.

You are right, it does seem tacked on. It would be better if the disasters was more interconnected with the game. Perhaps, adding to my idea of making the action spaces produce more resources the more meeples there are on them, this would sometimes trigger a disaster. Example: it is safe to place up to four meeples on the "gather wood" action space, and each meeple gathers an amount of wood equal to the number of meeples on the action space. The fifth and sixth and so on would gather four wood, but have a chance of triggering a flash flood due to having cut down too many trees that would have stopped it? But then there would be an element of luck in my euro game...

debiant
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TowerWizard

TowerWizard wrote:
Lonebluewolf: Thanks for your comments!

Debiant:

debiant wrote:
I liked the simultaneous play but the disaster at the end of each round seemed like a tacked on cooperative aspect to a game that was really meant to be competitive with alliances.

You are right, it does seem tacked on. It would be better if the disasters was more interconnected with the game. Perhaps, adding to my idea of making the action spaces produce more resources the more meeples there are on them, this would sometimes trigger a disaster. Example: it is safe to place up to four meeples on the "gather wood" action space, and each meeple gathers an amount of wood equal to the number of meeples on the action space. The fifth and sixth and so on would gather four wood, but have a chance of triggering a flash flood due to having cut down too many trees that would have stopped it? But then there would be an element of luck in my euro game...

I think that could have helped make the entry more solid and tied the mechanic in. A little luck could add an element of fun to the game but it's hard to say until it's playtested. Still, I think it was a solid entry.

adversitygames
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Race for the Remedy critiques

Thanks for the feedback on Race for the Remedy guys. Sorry I haven't had time to get involved in critiquing this round but hopefully I will next month.

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