CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

Mon, 07/28/2003 - 18:54

#1

FastLearner

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CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

Air Pirates! Man, I love the idea of air ships that look somewhat like water ships, with big sails and all! Every comic/cartoon that I've seen that used it thrilled me, regardless of how lame it may have been (from Nausicaa to Dark Water).

This has the potential for getting too complex. I've been lightly brainstorming a pirate game myself with swinging around and plank walking and all that good stuff and am having trouble keeping it simple enough.

However I'd certainly be glad to contribute all of those ideas to this game, and together we could surely keep it simple enough to be fun while rich enough to be fulfilling. I especially like the mechanic of very basic 3D (something you don't get with water pirates) because it allows you to use the third dimension without bringing trigonometry into the game. Reputation also has cool opportunities -- that's really what pirates are all about, to me!

Mon, 07/28/2003 - 21:07

#2

phpbbadmin

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Joined: 04/23/2013

Thoughts

Pros:
Cool Idea
I like the different levels and the rules attached to them.

Negative:
Should stress that combat would have to be EXTREMELY simple.

Tue, 07/29/2003 - 10:07

#3

Scurra

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CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

Possibly a little close to the WhizKids Crimson Skies (Heroclix) game?

Tue, 07/29/2003 - 13:15

#4

jwarrend

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Joined: 08/03/2008

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

Haven't seen the Heroclix game, so I'm not sure.

I like this idea a lot. I am concerned that it could be a morass of complexity where you have to keep track of which ships have received which upgrades, etc, which would mean combat would be a mess of lookup tables, etc, and that would NOT be fun.

But, I like the simple structure you've laid out -- 3 layers, one to "fly fast but can't fight", one to "fight" and one to "pillage".

On the downside, this would be a nightmare to actually implement.

But in principle, this is one of the ideas that I like best of the ones that have been proposed.

-Jeff

Tue, 07/29/2003 - 17:27

#5

Anonymous

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

I really wanted to respond to everyone else's ideas before commenting further on my own, but working while doint this has proven to be difficult.

I've thought about it further. I'm thinking that each player get's a place card that represents his ship. The upgrades are represented visually on the card with counters put in specific locations. So you can tell what each players ship is capable of just by looking around.

I'm thinking the board is going to be a world map divided into sections, and combat would occur very streamlined.

The first inspiration for the idea was a tactical combat game, but the more I thought about it, the more I really wanted to just do a treasure hunters game.

I'm thinking that each player can draw a "treasure map" card (possible more than one can be held at a time. The treasure map shows the location of new treasure locations. So when other players see the ship making a bee line to a spot, they'll know they should intercept. Or you could intercept after the player has gotten the treasure and try to steal it. (The latter would probably net you more reputation).

Anyway, so I was thinking that combat would be as simple as moving your ship to the same space as another player, declaring an attack, and a very quick combat occurs. Even though my first inspiration was more along the lines of Crimson Skies (sans all the fighter craft)

Wed, 07/30/2003 - 08:27

#6

Anonymous

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

I really like this idea, so long as we keep it quite simple. Upgrading the ships may be a bit much. Perhaps you could just buy more cannons (or whatever an airship would use) allowing you to roll more dice (always choosing the highest die roll for your attack). Also, I was thinking that maybe the more damage a ship took, the lower altitude it could maintain (thus the forcing it out of the sky idea).

I'm reminded of an old boardgame I played as a kid, "Sunken Treasure (I think)" though that involved a nifty electronic device to point to where the sunken treasure was. But if you threw in spiffy mechanics, a little Pirates of Dark Water and made the ships fly!

Wed, 07/30/2003 - 11:39

#7

Scurra

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CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

Krosse wrote:

But if you threw in spiffy mechanics, a little Pirates of Dark Water and made the ships fly!

I remember that! I wouldn't have, until you reminded me of it though.
It's amazing how many kids cartoon series get lodged in your memories, only to be dislodged in unexpected way.

It might be worth having a look at the (now sadly defunct) 7th Sea CCG for some good "piratey" ideas too.

Wed, 07/30/2003 - 12:31

#8

Anonymous

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

I like the idea of taking the highest dice, and getting more dice depending on how many cannons (or whatnot) the ship has.

Like, combat is a straight dice rolloff between the two ships and whoever wins get's to choose to pillage or something. So two players roll a dice, and one get's a 6, the other get's a 4, so the player with a six wins. But the next time, one has upgraded cannons, so he get's 2 dice, and rolls a 5 and 4, and the other guy rolls a 4.

It's simple, and gives you something to think about when attempting to attack other ships.

An alternative to this could also just be a modifier to the rolls. Such as a +1 on the attack roll, or +1 on the defend roll, etc.

So maybe the hull and cannons only get up to a +3 upgrade. There could be simple upgrade counters that have a +1, +2, or +3 on them, and you simply place them on an outlined slot on the card, which has a siloette of the shp.

Perhaps cannons (offense), hull (defense), and engine (speed) could be the only upgrades?

That way you can upgrade multiple things with the same components.

For even more simpliciity, you can limit the upgrade to +2 and have a +1 on one side and a +2 on the other. Save on components.

I loved pirates of Dark Water, but I love Crimson Skies more. Pirates in the air just seems all that more cool.

Anyone see Castle in the Sky? Pretty cool airships in that one.

Wed, 07/30/2003 - 13:13

#9

Anonymous

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

I was just in the shower thinking about this game some more.

Feel free to shoot down anything I say btw.

What if on this ship there was a crew. Represented by simple tokens that has a picture of a rather new pirate on one side, and a hardened pirate on the other. These tokens are placed on the ship and represent how large o a crew you have.

When you stop to pillage for treasure (either from a treasure map, or pillaging a town or whatever) you take as many of these tokens as you want and place them onto the world map location (the location on the board in which you're stopped at to find treasure). Once you've started searching for treasure you can't stop until it's found. There is a target number on the treasure map card you have that says how diffficult it is to find the treasure, and you roll a dice (two dice?) and add the number of crew that you've assigned to the task. It may take you more than one turn, which leaves your ship landed and vulnerable, especially if you have no crew manning it.

When you find the treasure, you move the crew back onto the ship, except flip them over to show they are now hardened.

Newbie pirates are worth .5 and hardened pirates are worth 1. So let's say you found a treasure map that has a difficulty rating of 9. You get to the location on the map, and you announce that you're landing. You show the map to everyone, and you then allocate however many pirates you want to the job. Now, since it's a 9 you MUSt allocate some pirates or you won't get the treasure. So you allocate 1 hardened pirate and 4 newbie pirates for a +3. Unfortunately that's all the pirates you have, so your ship is now empty. You roll a 4, so you don't get the treasure (this is done the turn after you land). While you're trying to locate this treasure, another player approaches your square and attacks. You automatically lose because you have no crew manning the ship, and they get to plunder your treasure. You give one of your treasure cards (all worth different amounts of victory points) and some gold coin tokens (not sure how the amount would be determined).

However after that you find the treasure and get to draw a treasure card (these cards have artifacts and other valuable printed on them with a vp listing, as well as possible special cards), and your entire crew is now hardened. Time to go find that player and get some piratey payback!

There could be reputation tokens as well, and let's say if you are attacked and lose you lose one reputation, if you win you gain one, if you find special treasure cards you gain one, if you land at one of the capitol cities around the map and cash in one of your treasure cards (thus losing the vp for it) you gain one.

The amount of reputation you have determines the max amount of crew you can have, as well as adds bonus vp at the end of the game. So exchanging that chalice worth 2 vp for one reputation may sound like a bad trade, but you can increase your crew size and be able to plunder more treasure while keeping yourself defended as well as attack other pirates more effectively.

So someone could spend all their time getting treasure for VP, but if they ignore reputation they're going to get clobbered by a more famous pirate who has a larger crew and their "milk money" is going to get stolen.

So after a ship wins an attack, then they get to board the other ship. Each player rolls off again, and you add the value of your crew to your die roll (remembering that newbies are only .5 so you need two to get a +1). If the attacker wins the defender is boarded and the attacker gets to take one of the defenders treasure cards (at random) and gain a reputation token (and the defender loses one). If the defender wins the ship combat phase though, he doesn't get to board, but he does get to move the attackers ship 3 spaces in any direction.

Crew are bought when you land at cities. Can only buy newbie pirates, and they are bought with coin tokens. I imagine tht the treasure cards have a gold coin value on them as well, so some cards might be more rare and valuable, but the actual gold coins received on the hunt isn't as great. Imagine an anient artifact that is sitting in a lone chamber... no gold coins on that treasure hunt, but lots of VP... then imagine a treasure trove. Nothing really special, but lots of gold coins.

I envision players with piles of gold coin tokens that they hoard, little cadboard tokens that resemble money to give more of a feel of a treasure trove being collected.

And it may seem a bit much... but let's say that if your reputation drops below the amount of crew you have, then you have to roll for mutiny with a +1 per crew member in excess of your rep. (not crew value this time, actual crew members). If you roll a 6 as the result, then they mutiny. Removing newbie pirates first... remove pirates until you are 1 BELOW your current reputation. And your ship stops for the turn.

Anyway, I'm going to stop now... it seems rather unfair of me to comment so much on my own idea when there are plenty of other good candidates around.

Wed, 07/30/2003 - 13:54

#10

Scurra

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CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

Hey, it's only natural to want to comment to your own ideas.
I think the purpose of this exercise is to try and comment on everyone else's as well!

I must say I'm not hot on dice rolling though. As Jeff said about 8/7 Central, if the game is light or deliberately highly random, then dice rolling ought to be reduced as much as possible, to take a back seat to more strategic planning.

For instance, one of my favourite techniques is to give everyone the same set of numbered cards at the beginning. As combats proceed, the cards are used up and you don't get new ones until all of the old ones are finished. So you have to plan your battles with a bit of bluff by trying to make your opponent win rounds with Aces to your 2s when you win rounds with Kings to their Queens (iyswim).
That way, players can still have fun blaming their luck - but at least it isn't the fault of random dice rolling.

Thu, 07/31/2003 - 05:31

#11

sedjtroll

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Joined: 07/21/2008

Random vs Probabalistic

Scurra wrote:

That way, players can still have fun blaming their luck - but at least it isn't the fault of random dice rolling.

The actual roll of the die is random, yes. The result of a die roll in a game is not random, it's probabalistic.

Examples: Evo: do you attack a dino with more horns than you? Hell no, your chances are horrible. Do you attack one with the same number of horns as you? Probably not, the chances still aren't very good. How about when you have 1 more horn than they do? Now it starts to become attractive, but with the odds it still has to be a good move- attacking willy-nilly even with a Horn advantage is sketchy.

(Evo combat is a die roll, Attacker must roll over a certain number on a d6, and Horns basically give a +1 modifier to whoever has the Horn.)

These decisions are made well before the dice are rolled. Sure, sometimes you'll lose a die roll even when it's in your favor, but that's ho odds work- if you have a 90% chance of success, then you have a 90% chance of success- even if you lose once. The odds don't change (In fact, you should lose about 10% of the time).

- Seth

Thu, 07/31/2003 - 05:33

#12

sedjtroll

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Joined: 07/21/2008

More on die rolls

The key is to have enough die rolls in the game so that the probabilities can kick in and be more accurate. If there are too few die rolls, then yes- people will attribute things to luck of the roll.

Thu, 07/31/2003 - 06:27

#13

Scurra

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CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

You saved me having to write that reply :)

Slightly too many games come down to the results of one dice roll - and that is always a bad thing.
If the player has even a little more control over the result, then that is better.
Even temporary modifiers help a little: do you use it for this roll, which it would be nice to win, or save it for that roll which it would be essential to win? If the player has little influence over either roll, then they don't feel as much "in control".

Thu, 07/31/2003 - 12:08

#14

sedjtroll

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Joined: 07/21/2008

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

Scurra wrote:

If the player has little influence over either roll, then they don't feel as much "in control".

The "in control" comes from selecting which rolls to make and when.
- Seth

Thu, 07/31/2003 - 12:59

#15

sedjtroll

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Air pirate idea... getting used to it

You know, I think this idea is starting to grow on me. I see it as less of a strategy game and more of a fun, every man for himself free-for-all, like maybe Frag. I think this is a good thing, as there are getting to be too many "sit quietly and figure out the best move" games like Puerto Rico.

- Seth

Thu, 07/31/2003 - 13:42

#16

sedjtroll

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On that note...

I mentioned Frag. I am starting to envision this game working something like Frag, with a movement allowance (that could be upgraded?), a board to move around in (3D!), and some shooting rules (cannons are on the sides of ships, so facing should matter).

I like the die rolling just fine for combat, using modifiers for "upgraded cannons" or whatever. I think it'd be best to keep it simple in that respect- one upgrade = +1 to roll or something.

Extra die for extra cannons was a good idea- that could be independant of upgrades as well. 2 extra cannons and 2 upgrades = best of 3 dice, add 2 to result.

Gain Reputation or Recognition for things like Shooting down ("sinking" another ship (if you kill someone, you get to loot them, then they respawn at some location- maybe their 'crew' is downgraded- their ship should be naked as far as upgrades- they had to get a new one). Ships should hold up to more than 1 combat- maybe they can thake 3 losses, plus 1 per upgrade to armor (Hull), and then damage can be repaired at the cost of time and treasure (and maybe a Rep Point- you pansy!)

Also gain Rep by finiding Treasure (see below for an idea on treasure placement)- or by cashing it in (cause if you just find it, noone knows). I liked that idea- give up wealth for Rep.

Treasure Hunting- Rather than having Treasure Map cards, have the treasure locations on the board (wherever they lay is where the maps say they are, just assume you have the maps). Have a bunch of Treasure Tiles- one side with a big red "X" like on a treasure map, the other with the actual treasure- which could be othing, could be gold, could be some artifact worth money or Rep, or could be something bad like living skeletons cursed by ancient aztecs or savages living where the gold is rumored to be, or other pirates guarding their gold, or even a trap like a covered pit which claims one crewman.

I like the idea of crewmen, and hiring more. I like the Mutiny check as well. I don't think I like the "upgrading" the crew members, just go with more crew is better than less crew (modifiers when being boarded as opposed to ship-to-ship combat, maybe other stuff). There could be an upgrade I suppose, like promoting a sailer to a captain (maybe you could buy a second boat if you get enough treasure and Rep, but you have to sac a guy from your crew for the captain of that boat- and you need to have enough crewmen to run it).

Ok, back to work for me...

- Seth

Thu, 07/31/2003 - 14:07

#17

sedjtroll

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Re: On that note...

sedjtroll wrote:

Treasure Hunting- Rather than having Treasure Map cards, have the treasure locations on the board (wherever they lay is where the maps say they are, just assume you have the maps). Have a bunch of Treasure Tiles...

I thikn I did a lousy job of explaining that. So the idea is that you have the Treasure Tiles, and you place them face down on the board at either certain locations (on Islands)- but then it's the same every time (though that's why some have no Treasure), or randomly strewn about the board (roll for placement perhaps, with the board spaces labelled like a chess board).

The former is probably the better way to do it- Treasure isn't ever randomly placed, not even in pirate movies.

- Seth

Thu, 07/31/2003 - 14:25

#18

Anonymous

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

The reason I went with treasure cards is for a couple reasons.
A) It'll make treasure placement random every game.
B) It'll make players pay attention to each others actions.

"Why is he making a bee line for that island? Oh, now he's going to low altitude. Alright boys! Set a course for that island!"

I had planned on the treasure looted from these locations being secret until they are either cashed in for reputation, or at the end of the game for victory points.

I had planned on some of these treasure cards actually being "special" cards. Such as a "fools gold" card that is worth 0vp, and if you get raided by another pirate, and he takes that treasure card from you, you get 1 reputation token. Or yeah, a treasure location that turns out to be nothng more than a zombie death trap, so you lose crew, which I see as a very valuable asset.

I also included the upgrading crew because it just seems to fit. You go to port and hire a bunch of bright eyed young "sailors" who want desperately to stake a name for themselves. They know nothing, so they're pretty worthless (hence the .5 value) but as they go on a few pirate advenures (or one rather) then they become fuly capable pirates, having learned the ropes. Plus it'll put a focus on collecting treasure as being important for not just the treasure, but for their crew, which they need strong to fend off attacks.

I see the game as a very cutthroat game that players play individually, but there is plenty of interaction through screwing each other over, and revenge. And yeah, it should be every man for themselves.

Thu, 07/31/2003 - 14:36

#19

sedjtroll

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CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

Bandecko wrote:

"Why is he making a bee line for that island? Oh, now he's going to low altitude. Alright boys! Set a course for that island!"

I don't think this would work too well in a turn based game. By the time you see where someone's going, and start going there yourself, they will beat you to it. I guess you could attack them, but you could do that anyway so you might as well go collect some treasure in the meantime.

Quote:

I had planned on the treasure looted from these locations being secret until they are either cashed in for reputation, or at the end of the game for victory points.

How do you handle the "zombie death trap" you mention if the treasure card is not revealed?

Quote:

I also included the upgrading crew because it just seems to fit...

I agree that it fits, but I think it's more complex than it's worth.

Quote:

I see the game as a very cutthroat game that players play individually, but there is plenty of interaction through screwing each other over, and revenge. And yeah, it should be every man for themselves.

I think the Treasure Tile idea, with set locations (maybe there are like 9 islands each with 1 treasure location) would work out- you never know if it's actual treasure or some trap or enemy. When you get to the tile, you reveal it and either fight the bad guy, resolve the trap, or collect the treasure- rumors spread about the Aztec Gold of the Black Pearl (or whatever- that movie was great by the way) that so-and-so found, so other players know what you've got (hence the Rep points).

To force competition, have the tiles not replenish until they are all collected. Players may go off in different directions at first, but eventually there will only be a couple left...

Special Ability granted by some treasure tile or perhaps purchased at a town could be to glance at a face down Treasure Tile (visit an oracle or find a crystal ball). that seems like a fun twist to me.

- Seth

Thu, 07/31/2003 - 14:51

#20

Anonymous

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

Well treasure cars would be revealed if they turned out to be "encounters" if it was a zombie death trap, then you'd reveal it and handle the encounter as described on the card.

As far as catching someone making a bee line for some place. That's where high altitude and engine upgrades come into play. Also ships that land to get treasure are going to be there for at least 1 turn, possibly 2 if they unsuccessfully get the treasure the first try.

But the treasure locations that may or may not be treasure is interesting. Kind of like a big guessing game where you have to watch your back at the same time. But then you run into people blaming dumb luck again I think.

I also like it because it gives you the opportunity to place a visual "X" on the location. X marks the spot, etc.

Thu, 07/31/2003 - 15:16

#21

sedjtroll

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Joined: 07/21/2008

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

Bandecko wrote:

Well treasure cars would be revealed if they turned out to be "encounters" if it was a zombie death trap, then you'd reveal it and handle the encounter as described on the card.

Personally I hate rules like this because it allows for cheating (even if by mistake) which for me ruins the game. Say you sack someone and draw an encounter from their hand. How do you fix the situation? How long had it been there? Did they hold it on purpose because they were afraid they'd lose the encounter at the time- maybe they planned to reveal it later when drawing a treasure card that isn't an encounter (after hireing some dudes)...

I know, I know... don't play with people like that. That doesn't keep the accidental "draw the card and not think about resolving it" thing from happening.

Quote:

As far as catching someone making a bee line for some place. That's where high altitude and engine upgrades come into play. Also ships that land to get treasure are going to be there for at least 1 turn, possibly 2 if they unsuccessfully get the treasure the first try.

Maybe this is just my opinion, but I think following people around and taking their treasure while they're looking for more treasure is sort of lame. Why would anyone LOOK for treasure when it means they'll get their pockets picked in the process? Is this a racing game to see if you can get to the island enough ahead of the other guy to find the treasure and get back to the ship before they get to you? Or is it a treasure hunting and piracy game?

Quote:

But the treasure locations that may or may not be treasure is interesting. Kind of like a big guessing game where you have to watch your back at the same time. But then you run into people blaming dumb luck again I think.

They should have invested in a trip to the Oracle to peek at a treasure Tile ;)
Even the 'bad' tiles aren't always bad, you probably earn Rep points for defeating the living dead or a group of bandits.

Quote:

I also like it because it gives you the opportunity to place a visual "X" on the location. X marks the spot, etc.

Word.

Thu, 07/31/2003 - 22:56

#22

hpox

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Joined: 12/31/1969

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

Pirates. Yes! Airships! Upgradable of course!

I think the goal is pretty straight foward, but I feel multiple victory conditions could be done easily. (ex: Reputation / Most Treasures / Some treasures in particular / ...)

The different levels of altitude. That's a very good idea. Expanding on this idea : High altitude = Good "Defense", Bad "Attack". Medium altitude = Normal "Defense", Good "Attack". Low altitude = Bad "defense", Bad "attack" (only incentive to go there is for treasures)

While ramming and boarding sounds really great, I'm sceptic.

Mon, 08/04/2003 - 13:51

#23

doho123

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Joined: 07/21/2008

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

If you are looking to keep things simple, why not follow the Joust video game method of battle. The higher of the ships fighting wins. However, this can be balanced by ships gaining treasue only by being at the lowest level.

Wed, 08/06/2003 - 14:55

#24

Anonymous

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

Hi,
First off, I love the idea of a sky pirates themed game. Right away I pictured in my mind the pirates being more like the ones from Disney's "Tail Spin" with blimps and airplanes rather than flying literal pirate ships.

Maybe one(or more) player(s) plays as the pirates, and other player(s) play as cargo ships trying to make their cargo runs? Maybe everybody plays as rival pirate squads against a simple non-player cargo ship?
Maybe there would even be some sort of diplomacy between the pirate clans?

I agree that the best way to do upgrades would be overall, where it upgraes all of your ships. Having tokens to indicate which ships have upgrades would be a pain in the neck.

Wed, 08/06/2003 - 18:58

#25

Anonymous

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

As for the ships themselves, I'd be happy to suggest an idea that's moved in and out of a few of my more fantastic game concepts. "Polarisails" They basically look like pirate ships, with a more sci-fi edge. The "sails" are actually magnetic sheets of metal that hold the ship in the air using the planets magnetic field. I realize, not at all feasible, but kinda neat for a fantastic game.
As for the treasure, perhaps we could go, sort of "Munchkin" on it. Certain items have a value in gold (random or not) While the actual goal of the game is to somehow "beat" your opponents, through reputation, combat, etc, but you could also win be attaining X amount of gold.

Just my 02.

Wed, 08/06/2003 - 19:24

#26

Anonymous

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

Personally I don't enjoy board games where some players are one thing, and some are another. To me a good board game has everyone pitted against each other on equal footing.

That's just my personal tastes though. As for upgrades being on all ships... I don't see why each player should get more than one ship. Each player being a pirate captain of his own ship, rather than commanding a whole fleet.

Wed, 08/06/2003 - 19:59

#27

sedjtroll

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Joined: 07/21/2008

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

Bandecko wrote:

I don't see why each player should get more than one ship. Each player being a pirate captain of his own ship, rather than commanding a whole fleet.

I agree, with the possible exception of a new ship being something you could buy- it would cost a lot of time and money (like say, a Wharf in Puerto Rico), but if you get it early enough, it will more than pay for itself in victory points (like a Wharf in Puerto Rico).

- Seth

Thu, 08/07/2003 - 07:46

#28

Anonymous

CGD1 Brainstorm: Air Pirates

I also agree. Commanding one ship is quite enough. If you start adding fleets, etc, you'll dillute the overall theme. The idea is, "I'm a pirate! Argh!" If you add fleets, you suddenly become a "player" again, just saying, "Wow, look at all those ships."

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