Skip to Content
 

What kind of strategy for a solo wargame with many unit types

6 replies [Last post]
larienna
larienna's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/28/2008

I am trying to make a solo game that tries to re-implements game ideas from Forbidden Star(FS) and Star Craft(SC). The primary goal is to be a strategic game which is playable in solitaire, multiplayer is optional.

I currently have a problem with the map size/type, mobility in a game where each player will have a large amount of unique unit type (8 per faction so far) to create a kind of Rock-Paper-Scissor relationship between units. I have many options to deal with and I am not sure what could fit best. So I was wondering:

In games with many unit types, what are the strategies of the game? Is it just about moving the right combination of units in the battle, or there is more? Do you have game examples that uses a large variety of units?

Here are some dilemmas I have with the map:

Large vs small maps: It seems that for AI, having a limited amount spaces is easier to implement. But it's less strategically interesting when there is little place to moves into. Humans like tactical movement, but not board game AI. I don't mind using less space, but how to make it strategically interesting with many unit types?

Shared areas: Like Star Craft and Forbidden Star, areas could be shared between players. That could be a way to keep the low amount of areas required by the rule above, but I am not sure if it will be AI friendly. It adds many exception rules with situations where battles can be fought between or within areas.

unit limits: Another issue I have: should the areas be limited in number of units. Forcing players to build better units to reinforce a position if be cannot bring more unit. That creates a problem that the defender will always have a number of unit equal or higher than the attacker. If for example each area can have 4 units, Then I can send at most 4 units to match your up to 4 defending units, and I must empty a region to attack yours making it vulnerable. Those units could be pooled from multiple areas, but that makes it even more AI unfriendly. So I was thinking maybe only limiting the global pool of units and/or make player do all their actions at once, allowing emptying a region and reinforcing immediately the empty region.

Terrain: I was thinking having indoor and outdoor areas for the terrain. Indoors area could protect from bombardment and collateral damage, but I am not sure what could be the benefits of outdoor areas. I cannot boost movement, since its constrained already from tile to tile. Originally, I wanted to make in between tile movement work only with connected matching terrain. Unfortunately, some tile placement could lead to impossible movement between 2 tiles. Also the amount of connected sub areas varied from 2 to 7 which was problematic with unit limits.

no map: Another solution that could work but greatly change the direction of the game is to remove the tactical map. It would make it solo friendly, but would greatly change the strategy of the game.

I think I said enough. If you have any suggestions let me know. I could just copy the mechanics from FS an d SC, but I was wondering if there was something better for solo gaming.

let-off studios
let-off studios's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/07/2011
Turn-Based = Age of Wonders

If you're going with a turn-based format instead of real-time (and whenever someone mentions StarCraft I immediately think of RTS games), then I would strongly-recommend having a look at Age of Wonders II, and specifically their expansion called AoWII: Shadow Magic. It was released in the early 2000s, and had a tremendous amount of replay-ability and customization. If I recall correctly, there were over a dozen different factions, and each had its own theme/gimmick.

I was actually a QA tester for it back in the day, and I still remember it fondly as an exceptionally well-made, turn-based wargame (especially for its time). Have a look at some of these reviews, should you be interested:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=age+of+wonders+2+shadow+magic

PS: Dark Elves FTW. :)

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
larienna wrote:I am trying to

larienna wrote:
I am trying to make a solo game that tries to re-implements game ideas from Forbidden Star(FS) and Star Craft(SC). The primary goal is to be a strategic game which is playable in solitaire, multiplayer is optional.
I am not familiar with Forbidden Stars. But I am very familiar with Starcraft and any other game from Blizzard regarding RTS.

larienna wrote:
I currently have a problem with the map size/type, mobility in a game where each player will have a large amount of unique unit type (8 per faction so far) to create a kind of Rock-Paper-Scissor relationship between units. I have many options to deal with and I am not sure what could fit best. So I was wondering:

In games with many unit types, what are the strategies of the game?
Is it just about moving the right combination of units in the battle, or there is more?
Do you have game examples that uses a large variety of units?


I don't know how heavy your RPS is. But yes, if you base it only on (mechanical) RPS. It will be about making the right combinations.

There are some other RPS possible if you have things like unit size and space. But also attack range and movement. Plus the map itself with limitations on movement. These all can bring in more variation which causes natural RPS effects.

larienna wrote:
Here are some dilemmas I have with the map:

__Large vs small maps__: It seems that for AI, having a limited amount spaces is easier to implement. But it's less strategically interesting when there is little place to moves into. Humans like tactical movement, but not board game AI. I don't mind using less space, but how to make it strategically interesting with many unit types?

I faced the same challenge. And is challenging, even today.
The only way to get your AI to make more strategic movements. Is to start writing a script, that players have to follow.

An example would be to have the AI fall back if the force is smaller.
To make this more complicated. For the AI, the player will count the damage points it can do on the player. And only falls back when this is lower than that of the player. The possible damage points are linked to the RPS you had in mind.

Although, this is easier with less types of units.
And it gets too complicated very fast.

Some scripts can make the ai make a false decision. As said, with the damage points. It is possible to send an army of tanks that do so little to grenadiers. That the grenadiers do more damage. But... the durability of the tanks might be many times higher than that of the grenadiers.
And what you get is that the player will have to calculate things. You don't want that. So the AI will have to remain stupid like in RTS games.

larienna wrote:
__Shared areas__: Like Star Craft and Forbidden Star, areas could be shared between players. That could be a way to keep the low amount of areas required by the rule above, but I am not sure if it will be AI friendly. It adds many exception rules with situations where battles can be fought between or within areas.
If you have attack range. Then this is still a good idea. I often had 5 field battles. Where the centre field often had the melee units coliding.

larienna wrote:
__unit limits__: Another issue I have: should the areas be limited in number of units. Forcing players to build better units to reinforce a position if be cannot bring more unit. That creates a problem that the defender will always have a number of unit equal or higher than the attacker. If for example each area can have 4 units, Then I can send at most 4 units to match your up to 4 defending units, and I must empty a region to attack yours making it vulnerable. Those units could be pooled from multiple areas, but that makes it even more AI unfriendly. So I was thinking maybe only limiting the global pool of units and/or make player do all their actions at once, allowing emptying a region and reinforcing immediately the empty region.
"Unit Size"
I am giving this knowledge to you:

The unit size equals the total weigth of an unit.
If an unit is worth 4, the size is 4. If an unit is worth 24, the size is 24.
So, if an area is 24. You can have 1 of 24 or 6 of 4.
Of course, 3 of 8 would do too.

The fun part is when you use a size difference. For example, what if the unit with weigth 8 is only a size 2.
Then to balance the RTS game, the costs increase of this unit. The square root of the factor is used for this. So the unit with size 2, weigth 8, would cost 16. You still can have only 3 of them.

But this makes things rather complicated. And it is a choice to make. Of course, you can do without size differences. And only have the weight being the size AND the costs.

larienna wrote:
__Terrain__: I was thinking having indoor and outdoor areas for the terrain. Indoors area could protect from bombardment and collateral damage, but I am not sure what could be the benefits of outdoor areas. I cannot boost movement, since its constrained already from tile to tile. Originally, I wanted to make in between tile movement work only with connected matching terrain. Unfortunately, some tile placement could lead to impossible movement between 2 tiles. Also the amount of connected sub areas varied from 2 to 7 which was problematic with unit limits.
I had terrains with water. I too could not get the tanks to move accross.
Jokes asside. Urban regions where used for maximum movement, yet almost 0 visual.

larienna wrote:
__no map__: Another solution that could work but greatly change the direction of the game is to remove the tactical map. It would make it solo friendly, but would greatly change the strategy of the game.
Trying to do the same now in the fiddling topic.

larienna wrote:
I think I said enough. If you have any suggestions let me know. I could just copy the mechanics from FS an d SC, but I was wondering if there was something better for solo gaming.
While copying. Make absolutely sure that the combat mechanics are tested.
I discovered that if the combat mechanic itself is changed. The whole balancing of all units changes as well.

Important factors:
The H/D ratio.
The ratio of immobility and visoin on a map.
Usage of a map.
Usage of RPS mechanics.
Action Points
etc. etc.

larienna
larienna's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/28/2008
I played age of wonders a

I played age of wonders a couple of time in the past. It does not replace Master of Magic, but it's an OK game.

The theme is a game featuring factions of rats fighting against each other.

For the RPS between unit, I intend to make a matrix of all units duel combination and see which unit can defeat which unit using basic stats or with upgrades. I don't want strict 3 way RPS, but rather some units more efficient vs certain type of units. Ex: my fire rats has bonus vs biological unit. This way, it will be possible to evaluate the efficiency of a unit. The more unit it can destroy and the less unit that can kill them , the stronger is the unit.

In the past, I made a solo variant for the starcraft board game. It used a very small map, and it seems that the sub-divided planet areas makes it easier for the AI to play. The AI was basically invading an area, flooding it and moving else where. Here is a picture guide I made to play the solo variant to give you an idea:

http://bgd.lariennalibrary.com/index.php?n=Guide.StarcraftInvasions

Maybe I should stick close to the original game design, but make it more AI friendly(less special abilities involving choices). I was thinking in using Forbidden star's map design, but with maybe only 4 tiles/planets. It seems that in solo mode, putting more "planets" is not easy for the AI to navigate. So the system above is removing any planet to planet movement. At most, I could add movement to adjacent "planets", if there are few planets, the AI should be able to cover the entire map.

I think one advantage of using subdivided areas is the possibility to pool units from multiple territories into the same territory. Avoiding the bug that when you have unit limits, the attacker will always have a number of units lower equal to the defender. For the unit limit, a user on BGG suggested that indoor areas had less unit capacity than outdoor areas. That could be an interesting solution. I don't really like the idea of unit size. By making all units takes the same space, you could strength your position by putting better quality units rather than more units.

If the map has no subdivision, not only it makes AI navigation harder, but it kind of makes the strategy dull. It seems like the game is just about moving in the right combination of units which most of the time is the entire stack since you don't have much more option. Else, I would need to allow pooling from multiple tile into the same target tile.

It's really surprising how much impact, subdividing areas could have on the gameplay.

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
RPS can come in many sizes.

RPS can come in many sizes. The one you seek is something along the lines of an 8-way RPS. But with various strengths. Correct?

Some decades ago, I did the same with a 25-way. Not sure about your specific combat mechanics. But I could give a guidline in a first direction of balancing this if you like.

***

If you have trouble having your ai move accros the map. The lineair approach is a good way to deal with this. And splitting up territories is indeed a good way.

I could draw out my idea for you. But I have no idea how to share it without making a new topic tbh.

***

In regards to unit sizes. If you choose to have them equal in size. But different in strength.
Just keep in mind that the area with the best units, still needs a weakness.

If I where to do the same on my board game.
I would be increasing the costs of my units dramatcially, the stronger they are.
1 costs 1
4 costs 8
9 costs 27
2.25 costs 3.375
etc.

1 territory could have 5 of 1 or 5 of 9. But the costs would be 5 against 135. It is a matter of arithmetics.

larienna
larienna's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/28/2008
Cost is complex because there

Cost is complex because there are 2 resources, so I don't have much flexibility here, still I'll try to have a bit larger denominations than in Star Craft for better balance.

Splitting the territory seems like a good solution, but it adds more exceptions that must be handled by the rules. Less elegant, but maybe necessary for AI compatibility.

For the RPS, Units would have a couple of stats with modifiers and abilities. I think, minimal stats could be comparable to magic the gathering Strength vs health. Then abilities and upgrades could change those values in certain situations. Players would chose which unit target which unit, probably in initiative order(letter, like Wizard king).

---------------------------------------------------

I have 2 solution in mind to make combat non-deterministic:

Solution A- Roll 1 die per unit, 1-3 = attack, 4-5=support, 6 = miss. If your unit attack is too weak to kill an opposing unit, you can shift it to support.

Support and other abilities is likely to generate collateral damage. This is a cumulative pool of damage for all the unit that must be distributed by the defender at the end of combat, unless fighting indoor.

Optionally, you can play tech cards to trigger special effect or change combat results. (That could be complicated for an AI to use)

Solution B- It could be a solution for all players or only the AI. Each unit has a combat resolution table which determines the results including if certain tech cards were used or not. So there is less decisions taken here. It's the same system I used for my SC solitaire variant. The pictures are in the guide above.

---------------------------------------------------

After the battle, the surviving non-disabled units sum up their morale/control value and the player with the highest sum takes control of the area. The opposing units retreats.

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
Sounds all good

I too vouch for minimalistic stats.

If you have differences in defence and offense. Then you could base the resources on this.

Let's say resource A is used for defence.
Then a player with a lot of resource A, will be good in defence.

Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut