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item types.

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wob
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Joined: 06/09/2017

hello.
my game needs some item types. its a fantasy themed dungeon crawly thing.
in the game there are 3 main hero/item types:
noble: for fighters, and tanks. weapons and shields nothing magic
sage: for team support, healing, buffs, self sacrifice etc mostly magical stuff
shadow: for selfish rogues. offence and self defence both magical and non magical.

so i need some sub types for my items that are specific enough to be relevant but broad enough to encompass differnt things, and be flexible later.

i know that noble characters (knights, barbarians etc) would use weapons and armour. but i need a non magical way to do things like heal and boost.
sage characters will have spells and potions but also a type for physical things like herbs, amulets, charms etc that wont be enough for there own full catagory.
shadow items will be the easiest as its just dark versions of noble and sage items (curses instead of spells etc)

im thinking maybe 8-10 subtypes that can be shared by the main types, eg shadow or noble weapons.

its kind of a vague and nebulous question but any suggestions are welcome.

X3M
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Here is a start.

This requires a map I think. Just to see what you really want.

Think of a triangle.

I am thinking of 3 corners here. The 3 pure types. With each a mixture in between. But also in the middle of this triangle.
And 7 different types is the best you could do.
3 for the pure, 3 for the mix, 1 for the mix of all 3 types.

Noble
Sage
Shadow
Noble/Sage
Noble/Shadow
Sage/Shadow
Noble/Sage/Shadow

If shadow is the opposite of Noble AND Sage. Then I could assume you have 2 different kinds of shadow?

Now you need a square.

And you would be having 4 corners.
15 different combinations in total.
4 pure, 6 mixtures, 4 mixtures of 3 types, 1 for the mix of all 4.
Unless you don't want to combine 3 or 4 types, then it is 10 in total.
The 6 mixtures of 2 types can be reduced to 4 mixtures if you don't add the crossroads. It is still 'balanced'.
Then you get to only 8.

Make the map. And start filling in idea's. Sooner or later, you have gaps that you like to fill.
Also have the 2 shadow types, get some sort of name?

Of course, I might be thinking in a complete wrong direction.

wob
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Joined: 06/09/2017
thats kind of what ive done

thats kind of what ive done with the character selection. each hero uses strength (str) levels to use items. when your setting up the character you have 3 hero skills (not sure if thats the right word) noble, shadow and sage that start at -1. then you add 4 points across all 3. (3-1-1/20-1/100 in various computations).
if you decided on say 2 noble, 0 shadow, and -1 sage and your current str is 1 you can use level 3 noble items, 1 shadow items and you cant use sage items until you get more str (level 1 is lowest).
a non magic fighter that might damage his enemies.

shadow isnt really opposite sage or noble. basically noble is general fighting stuff. sage is general support and shadow is big offence, at a cost (often to allies) and self support.
an item will be noble, shadow or sage (maybe mixed and all three).
my main problem was more how to lump items together.
some are obvious such as weapons. any thing from daggers to bows. its obvious a weapon should be called that.
but if i make a subtype armour it illuminates anything like cloaks and any other clothing but could include shields and other defensive things. the subtype clothes would cover anything from boots to suits of armour but then what do i call shields? and i have a simmilar problem with things like healing herbs, there aren't may things like it, but its not a potion or spell so where do i put it?

a second option is to group by purpose. group suuport, self support offence etc

wob
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Joined: 06/09/2017
it might help to add why this

it might help to add why this important. i could have lots of types and be really specific but i have cards that affect other cards. if i have a broard enough type i can say weapon and effect loads of cards instead of swords and maybe never affect anything.

Jay103
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Joined: 01/23/2018
If shadow is literally just

If shadow is literally just the opposite of the others, then in a sense you've only got Noble and Sage. Plus the opposites.

Looked at from that perspective, you've got Mundane and Arcane.

I'm not sure what a "dark weapon" is if it's not magic, but I assume you have some idea already.

I'd then put herbs under the Noble category. In the sense of drug components, rather than potion components (though maybe they're both).

Now you'd got herbology as a sub-thing of Noble, and alchemy as a sub-thing of Arcane. They can both do healing and buffing, though I imagine you'd want to take steps to differentiate them, maybe in power. Herbology is easy and weak, and alchemy is harder and strong. Or whatever. From an item perspective (I was looking from a skill perspective), it's herbs and potions.

Then I guess for Noble, weapons and armor are other types? And for Sage it would be Enchantments and.. staves? Where enchantments are magical doodads, like a rock that explodes when thrown, or a regen ring, and wands/staves are what they usually are.

I can keep going, but I'm not sure this is the sort of thing you're looking for.

I'd definitely keep the herb suggestion, though :)

Jay103
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Joined: 01/23/2018
Just read your second

Just read your second post..

Okay, so you're just looking for broad categories that would be suitable to use with modifier cards, so that you get SOME things covered but not all.

Can things be in more than one category?

Herb
Potion
Armor
-Clothing
-Leather Armor
-Metal Armor
Weapon
-Blunt Weapon
-Bladed Weapon
-Piercing Weapon
Jewelry
Doodad

Other possible cross-categories:

Enchanted
Mundane (e.g. give +1 fire damage to any Mundane weapon)
Metal
Wood
Edible
Poisoned

apeloverage
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wob wrote:hello.my game

wob wrote:
i know that noble characters (knights, barbarians etc) would use weapons and armour.

Barbarians aren't really 'nobles'.

wob wrote:
shadow: for selfish rogues.

wob wrote:
shadow items will be the easiest as its just dark versions of noble and sage items (curses instead of spells etc)

Are shadows assassin/thief types, or evil wizards?

wob
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Joined: 06/09/2017
of course a barbarian can be

of course a barbarian can be noble. dont be racist :)

the types say more about personality than anything else. shadow types are anything thats on the dark side thieves, rogues, dark mages, assassins, dark knights. anything but the kind and gentle often misunderstood barbarian.

wob
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Joined: 06/09/2017
yes this exactly what i was

yes this exactly what i was trying for. each main type will have a mix of things just in different proportions. noble has more offence , sage more support , shadow is fairly even.
there arent specific "mage" "knight" style classes in the game. you are just more adept at using different items depending how you want to make your character.

Stormyknight1976
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Joined: 04/08/2012
This is epic.

wob wrote:
of course a barbarian can be noble. dont be racist :)

the types say more about personality than anything else. shadow types are anything thats on the dark side thieves, rogues, dark mages, assassins, dark knights. anything but the kind and gentle often misunderstood barbarian.

Off topic for a split minute:
I was going to mention something positive and polite and then I read your response Wob. My thoughts exactly.

Why do we always assume what a knight or a barbarian or a thief should be or shouldn’t be or combination there of just to name a few.

A character can be who ever they want to be and have multiple classification roles.
Be creative, stop going with the trends on what the big box companies should tell you what you character should be in your game. All rpg campaign guide books are guide lines. Rules in each game are just telling you how the game is played to get started. Everything else is home brewed to fit the guidelines and storytelling.

That is all I wanted to add.

Bows respectively and leaves the room.

Stormyknight1976
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Have a look here.

wob wrote:
yes this exactly what i was trying for. each main type will have a mix of things just in different proportions. noble has more offence , sage more support , shadow is fairly even.
there arent specific "mage" "knight" style classes in the game. you are just more adept at using different items depending how you want to make your character.

https://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/319/401/41f.png

If it doesn’t access from the link.

Check here:

D&D triangle class charts on search bar and look at the images.
Hope this helps you out a little.

Jay103
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Joined: 01/23/2018
I'd never seen that (and, as

I'd never seen that (and, as an aside, OH MY GOD), but since my fantasy RPG has Warrior, Rogue, Wizard, and Cleric as the four fundamental archetypes, I guess I got it right ;)

questccg
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I'm not sure...

Jay103 wrote:
I'd never seen that (and, as an aside, OH MY GOD), but since my fantasy RPG has Warrior, Rogue, Wizard, and Cleric as the four fundamental archetypes, I guess I got it right ;)

If conventional wisdom says "Go with the chart" ... Then you got it WRONG, there are only THREE (3) classes depicted on the D&D Triangle. However if you do as "Stormy" SAYS and "Follow your own path" ... Then I think you got it RIGHT!

And just a matter to "sticking to the book".

The THREE (3) classes in the D&D Triangle are: Fighter, Mage and Rogue. There doesn't seem to be any CLERIC in that chart... Just as an FYI. I know you can read... But it's a TRIAD not a QUADRUPLET.

And on a personal note... I think "Stormy" is right. I use D&D as a source of "inspiration". In earlier version of the "Monster Manual", all the monsters had a GENERIC "type". But as AD&D has evolved, there are more are more SPECIFIC "types" of monsters. This makes the manual more geared towards AD&D specific CONTENT.

If you grew up with the earlier books from AD&D (Player's Manual, Unearthed Arcana, Dungeon Master Guide, Monster Manual, etc.) ... You were influenced by earlier editions of the game (which are more basic...)

Cheers!

apeloverage
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Joined: 08/01/2008
wob wrote:of course a

wob wrote:
of course a barbarian can be noble. dont be racist :)

the types say more about personality than anything else. shadow types are anything thats on the dark side thieves, rogues, dark mages, assassins, dark knights. anything but the kind and gentle often misunderstood barbarian.

'Nobles' are members of the nobility. I think you mean something more like 'hero'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble

Jay103
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Joined: 01/23/2018
... sure. But cleric is the

... sure.

But cleric is the other fundamental class of D&D.. it just doesn't fit into their chart.

questccg
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3 (D&D) to 6 (AD&D)

Jay103 wrote:
...But cleric is the other fundamental class of D&D.. it just doesn't fit into their chart.

According to Wikipedia, the original D&D had THREE (3) classes:

  • Cleric
  • Fighting Man
  • Magic-user

But AD&D 1st Edition featured SIX (6) classes:

  • Cleric (Druid)
  • Fighter (Paladin/Ranger)
  • Magic-user (Illusionist)
  • Thief (Assassin)
  • Monk
  • Bard

There were sub-classes to which you could "specialize" in too. So I guess there is ROOM for growth to add the "Bard" and the "Monk"! IDK... (LOL)

Maybe you can create a "The Game Crafter" (TGC) expansion KS?!

Hey, I'll be the first one to say "Monster Keep" will be made and fulfilled by TGC. I don't need the hassles I've been reading on the TableTop Group about missing parts, rulebooks (whole book missing), accidental loss or damage of boxes when shipping, late shipments (due to delays), etc.

And about the classes... Well I think SIX (6) makes for an interesting party. I remember the Ranger and Paladin. Forgot they were sub-classes.

Cheers!

Note: On the UP-SIDE, you only need a couple mats and standies ... And a box with a couple page rulebook. Why I suggested TGC is because you can LOWER your Funding Goal to something RIDICULOUS:

  • Like: 100 backers at $25 USD = $2,500 USD.

I know it's not a great source of "revenue"... But it allows your game to grow too... With another COOL "add-on" expansion. I haven't seen your Guide (for the Game Master)... So I don't know if that is CLASS "dependent" or not.

If it's not... Maybe a small, 2 Class "expansion" could be a neat additional product for your core game.

TGC also does printed dice (I believe). Obviously at a higher price point. Not sure, would you need NEW dice???

Jay103
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Joined: 01/23/2018
questccg wrote: But AD&D 1st

questccg wrote:

But AD&D 1st Edition featured SIX (6) classes:

+ Cleric (Druid)
+ Fighter (Paladin/Ranger)
+ Magic-user (Illusionist)
+ Thief (Assassin)
+ Monk
+ Bard


Yes, I know, I played it :)

wob
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Joined: 06/09/2017
i agree that a noble is a

hi apeloverage. i agree that a noble is a member of an aristocracy (i dont know enough about barbarian culture to say if they have one) and nobleman/noblewoman are almost solely that. in my game the term refers more to the other definitions...
1) having or showing fine personal qualities or high moral priciples. honourable and unselfish.
2) of large or imposing stature
3) of excellent or superior quality.

im not sure if a barbarian is chemically inert.

Jay103
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Joined: 01/23/2018
I'd have no problem with

I'd have no problem with categorizing the bearded red-haired guy in Game of Thrones as nobility.

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