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Helping in making a video game

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X3M
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YES! This is happening.
It will be a mobile RTS game.

But it is in the earliest of the earliest of the stages.
Apparently I am going to provide the numbers to the team from accros the ocean.

New problems arrise!
But I do have the luck that we can test the game constantly right away. At least...that is my guess.

***

First issue that I cam accross.

Unit size.

In my board games, I have either threshold effects, squad factors or the unit size itself.

But WTF do I DO!!?? In the video game?

It seems that having 1 unit having a much smaller size. Only has some benefits in going through terrain. But in terms of combat. The unit size doesn't have much influence any more.

So, how do you think that the unit size has to be factored in?

questccg
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Some early thoughts...

Here are some of my thoughts. Especially since it is a Mobile or Video Game, there is much more that can be done.

1. Size will affect the PERCENTILE "to-hit". So a Tank which is LARGER is easier "to-hit" than a group of troops who can evade the attack.

2. You might want EXPLOSIVE weapons that "splatter" like Concussion Grenades or Fragment Missiles, etc. This is more EFFECTIVE on Troops since the exploding factor can hit multiple targets.

3. Troops should be a GROUPING not a single Soldier. So maybe Riflemen = 6 Soldiers, Flamethrowers = 4 Soldiers, Grenadiers = 3 Soldiers, Bazookas = 2 Soldiers, etc.

4. Larger units can be individual like Tanks or Jet Planes.

That's some of my "early thoughts" on the matter. Of course, it's YOUR game, feel free to use, adapt or ignore these ramblings depending on what you think is a good fit for your Mobile or Video game!

larienna
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I don't see what is the

I don't see what is the problem because almost any board game mechanics can be implemented digitally except maybe dexterity or social mechanism.

What do you mean exactly by unit size, it is a stash of tokens that you want to identify in a glance? If that is the case, you can always add up a number to indicate the size of the stash. You can also slide units diagonally to show depth.

questccg
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No I think he is design a Mobile RTS Video game...

Maybe I misunderstood... But this has nothing to do with Board & Card Games. @X3M is designing a Mobile or Video Game RTS similar to StarCraft or Warcraft RTS games... But I think it's going to be Mobile.

So the physical SIZE of units is what he is talking about.

Like I said, having GROUPINGs for smaller units (like Soldiers) could be appropriate and larger units like Tanks and Jet Planes can be SOLO or individual units.

There are no TOKENS... This is NOT a Board or Card Game. Correct me if I am Wrong @X3M???!!! Cheers.

larienna
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As somebody have have problem

As somebody have have problem playing RTS, I just give you an idea, take it or leave it.

Separate your map in large hexes, square, or other shape. Then all units in the same area auto battle like a real time game other units in the same area. They are indirectly grouped if they share the same space.

It could be easier to command especially for a mobile game.

questccg
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That's what a BARRACK is FOR!

Maybe the BARRACK allows you to GROUP units into FORMATIONS. Then when those GROUPs go out to explore ... You CANNOT UNGROUP them, they are a platoon ...

You can have 9 Groups, 0 = Base. So when you press "1" it goes to FORMATION #1. And if you press "0" it goes to your BASE.

That's kind of a HYBRID of AI managed combat to something more FLEXIBLE. Pre-configured groups which means that the units are semi-vulnerable to opposing GROUPS depending on the units facing off against each other.

Anyways this is another approach. Which is kind of IN-BETWEEN AI managed combat and FREE unit management. This is a HYBRID-Approach making FORMATIONS which can battle at a PRESS of ONE (1) BUTTON: "1 to 9".

The SIZE of the GROUP could be something to do with RESOURCES (maybe). My early thoughts is that each UNIT has some kind of WEIGHT and each GROUPING has a limit to how much WEIGHT can be combined at a BARRACK.

But I really think that a HYBRID approach might be good.

It's EASY to press "1 to 9" and click on the opposing GROUP to ATTACK, no???

Doesn't that SIMPLIFY the COMBAT mechanic quite a bit. Press "1" and click on the opposing GROUP... Simple, no??? You can handle that @larienna!

questccg
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Hmm... A bit different than I thought

I also forgot that Mobile Phones don't have a KEYBOARD. Maybe you can have GROUPS at the TOP of your screen and the display is sideways (widescreen). And when you TAP one of those GROUPS at the TOP, the screen goes to that GROUP of soldiers. You could also have "warnings" that turn RED to indicate that a GROUP is "under attack"... And of course the RIGHT-MOST Group could be your BASE. And again if you BASE is under attack ... you could have the SAME "warnings" that turn RED too...

Just some thoughts on the MOBILE experience UIX design. Since you most probably WON'T have KEYS to press but a SCREEN that you tap on with fingers and such...

larienna
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It depends what Kind of RTS

It depends what Kind of RTS you want. There is a game called "Overlord" on the NES that is an RTS according to an acronym, but does not look even close to War/Starcraft.

I was thinking to make an Overlord like mobile game and it could actually work well, due to how the interface is designed except for combat (look it up).

Now if you want to do a RTS a la War/Starcraft, I am a bit worried about the usability of the mobile decices. RTS gamers can do many many clicks per seconds, you will not be able to do this with a mobile device. So the management of the unit on the battlefiled will have to be simplified.

There are multiple ways to do this. It could be like I said, you use map spaces. It could be you handle only 1 squad like the heroes and it's henchmen and delegate base management task.

So either find other RTS example, or try to determine what kind of interface you want (ex: is there some map panning). Then determine the mechanics of the game according to what your mobile platform can handle.

Else, you might end up with an unplayable game. It would be like trying to play Super Mario Bros with a flight stick.

X3M
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Some facts, AND yes!!! It is a video game

Mobile RTS that work well with an interface.
- Dune 2
- Art of War 3: Global Conflict
- Project Y
- War Inc.

Go check them out if you like.

The head of the new RTS only wants me to supply unit statistics.
The rest is not my concern.

Right, so we are not going to do splash damage. Unless someone knows how these can be balanced.

As for unit size. I already offered them that certain missions require smaller units.
If we use a squad system, I certainly need to alter the unit sizes, if we want infantry to be able tonfit through a door.

The best balance is with the unit size being equal to the unit value.
After a lot of research, I got to a good idea on how to balance fornmy own boardgame.
But a turnbased game with limited actions is completely different than a REAL time game with all possible actions at the same time.

This means that where we normally would have 1 squad doing an attack....all squads do an attack.

I looked at Starcraft and C&C3 for how they implement unit sizes.
Not sure, but where Starcraft fails, C&C3 seems to be succeeding...

questccg
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I took a look at "Overlord" ... Not at all what I was expecting!

But you make an interesting point about CLICKS and TERRAIN. Clearly I think you might need to have LANES like "League of Legends" which is also an MMORTS. I agree with you that TERRAIN and "scrolling" will be terrible in the RTS space on a Mobile SmartPhone.

Maybe there is kind of "King of the Hill" concept in which players TRY to CONTROL waypoints in a LANE... So let's say a lane have FIVE (5) Waypoints, you would need to control three (3) of them ... And let's say you would need to control 2 out of 3 Lanes.

Since it's a Video Game, I'm sure you can have a TIMER to try to DEFEND a LANE for a duration of time... Or you could have a CENTER PUSH towards the opponent's BASE (for example).

But if you have like this:

BASE -> Waypoint #1 -> Waypoint #2 -> Waypoint #3 -> Enemy Base

So BOTH Players could control the nearest Waypoint. But the Player who SECURES and controls Waypoint #2 using a timer (IDK 3:00 minutes for example) WINS that LANE. And like I said, you would need to CONTROL 2 out of 3 Lanes to WIN.

And you could have up to NINE (9) FORMATIONS which help you in pushing and defending Warpoints (Territory).

But I definitely AGREE... Mobile Devices are not meant to SCROLL and CLICK like crazy. Really need a SIMPLER method to manage the RTS to small skirmishes and use the DIGITAL Timer to control lanes.

That's what I think... But I agree... You'll need some kind of simplification.

Best!

questccg
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Cool beans!

X3M wrote:
The head of the new RTS only wants me to supply unit statistics.
The rest is not my concern.

Right, so we are not going to do splash damage. Unless someone knows how these can be balanced.

Ah okay... no worries. I thought you had a "from 0" project. Designing units is maybe 10% of an RTS (especially on Mobile).

I still think it would be easy to BALANCE "splash damage" with the type of units. Like soldiers are effectively damaged by splash vs. other units don't get affected.

But still it's good for you @X3M! You have a talent with BALANCING by the numbers not RANDOM pick and playtest.

Let us know how your project goes forwards! Cheers.

X3M
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Yeah, I will let you guys know more about the project

If I get a green light on that. Hahahaha.

Either way, my RPS system is going to be used. In combination with an attribute system.

The latter will give a factor of 0.5 to 1.5 depending on how many "dimension" targets they can hit. Think of ground and air...but water, subground and submarine are a class on themselves.
Thus, the default is 3, which is 100%.

This was so basic, I can tell you guys.

The RPS of mine is the same as one ofnmy board games. If it is too sharp for the video game. I can very, very easily change the numbers to a softer one ;)

***

In regards to splash damage. It is linked to unitnsize as well.
Maybe a radius, and the ability to hit multiple targets. This means that we can put a maximum of targets in a hard number.

Lets say, 5 are in the splash radius. But we set the maximum to 3.
A roll of a die would determine which units take the splash damage.
Maybe 1 target gets a full hit. The rest gets less.
Either way, if there is only 1 target. The damage is overkill.
With 2 as well.
With 3 or more, it is ok.

Perhaps I should have the damage "explode" and then being divided among the targets. But ifnthere isnonly one target, it would get more damage...

***

As for unit size. I still don't know.
If the radius is half, twice the ammount of units will be able to fire at the longest range. But they might as well walk closer, right?

larienna
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Like we discussed in other

Like we discussed in other thread, units size as Infantry VS vehicle, could be that vehicle as more firepower but occupies more space. Some tasks like capturing a building could be done only by infantry. So you would need a combination of both to be effective. Maybe vehicle are more prone to be affected by area of effects (splash damage) attacks since they are bigger.

You just have to give pro and cons to each size. Again, you have to know if the engine they are using allows various size. Is their unit models/artwork already made?

X3M
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larienna wrote:Like we

larienna wrote:
Like we discussed in other thread, units size as Infantry VS vehicle, could be that vehicle as more firepower but occupies more space. Some tasks like capturing a building could be done only by infantry. So you would need a combination of both to be effective. Maybe vehicle are more prone to be affected by area of effects (splash damage) attacks since they are bigger.

Well, this is a video game. The size will actually be a visual thing. And pathfinding will also be linked to it.
And yes, access to certain structures, has to be done with infantry that can walk inside a key structure. That is how I picture it.

larienna wrote:
You just have to give pro and cons to each size. Again, you have to know if the engine they are using allows various size. Is their unit models/artwork already made?

They are working on it. Just like Starcraft, the units are going to have a collision size.

My goal is that the pro and cons emerge from applying differen unit sizes.
Not sure about splash damage yet. But I do know that having smaller sized units that supposed to, would give the player benefits on certain maps.

Here is an example:
A player has soldiers that cost 125 each, the radius is 36. The small pathway allows a maximum radius of 25.
The soldiers don't fit.
In order to get the soldiers through the door. The player can make adjustments to the suit of the soldiers. A smaller but more expensive suit will make them "more agile" and stuff.
The factor can be 0.7, thus the radius is 25 now. But the costs increase from 125 to 150.
The density of the army went up with 1.4. But the costs only 1.2.

That is the idea. At least, my idea.

questccg
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That all sounds cool...

It's nice that you can contribute only the input which is what you have been perfecting for years now with your own Wargame. Finally another outlet for your designing capabilities.

That's really neat!

I won't contribute anymore... Because you can handle units and stats. I was more concerned with Mobile Issues and making the game playable without a keyboard but those are not your concerns, they're issues for the other members making the game.

Hope it's a great success... Cheers.

X3M
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I too hope it will be a great succes.

Gona consider the size "done" for now.
The testing will take place, if they decide to have different sizes than intended.

Remember the HnR rules that i was working on for my assault units?
It needs to be balanced from the ground up again. Due to the fact that it is a video game.

Instead of having the HnR added. I think it is better to subtract unit costs if they have to stand still when firing...

X3M
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Oops

That aint right. We are going to have differences in speed.
And the micro effect is exponential. So I have to make this factor as a.... wait for it.....mathematical factor.

questccg
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Just one suggestion...

Whatever you PROPOSE ... Make sure you can TWEAK everything during PLAYTESTING. Whatever you say should be 1.5x ensure that the factor can be changed to 1.25x for example.

From what I've read about Designing Video Games ... Is that MOST Mathematical Models that work good in THEORY work very BADLY in PRACTICE. I've also read and watch articles that MATH is flawed and cannot explain how the world is NOT Mathematical.

One such examples is MUSIC. If you watch videos and read about the topic, you'll learn that the MUSICAL SCALE is an APPROXIMATION. Something that most mathematicians are disgusted about ... but it is true.

Same goes for many things in Nature. It's not ALL mathematical.

So much like the MUSICAL SCALE and it's approximation ... Be READY to ensure that everything you PROPOSE can be "TWEAKED" at a moment's notice to make for values that are SMOOTHER in the REAL GAME.

Anyhow IF you don't believe me... I think Google around and find some videos that explain how the TONES are "approximations" and that MATH doesn't explain well music theory. It's compromises that sound pleasing to the EAR that are what is used in Music today.

I don't have the videos that I watched... But I remember quite clearly that Pythagoras tried to make it MATHEMATICAL and it did not work. Today's standards are all "tweakings" of the TONES to make them SOUND better and more pleasing to the senses.

You can IGNORE my warning... But I honestly hope you don't. Because THEORY is one thing, PRACTICE is another. Safer to allow for everything to be tweaked and made just right for the PLAYERS and not the Game Designers.

Cheers!

Note #1: Here is the Video I recommended watching about Pythagoras and Music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdYzqLgMmgk

Enjoy!

larienna
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Since you'll have a video

Since you'll have a video game, use automated game/combat simulation and analyse the results. It could help a lot, much more convenient than playtesting.

X3M
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larienna wrote:Since you'll

larienna wrote:
Since you'll have a video game, use automated game/combat simulation and analyse the results. It could help a lot, much more convenient than playtesting.

I conveyed the message. Thank you.

X3M
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questccg wrote:Whatever you

questccg wrote:
Whatever you PROPOSE ... Make sure you can TWEAK everything during PLAYTESTING. Whatever you say should be 1.5x ensure that the factor can be changed to 1.25x for example.
I think you mean that the playtesting should be updated on the spot. Correct?
If so, yeah, that would be very wise indeed.

questccg wrote:

From what I've read about Designing Video Games ... Is that MOST Mathematical Models that work good in THEORY work very BADLY in PRACTICE. I've also read and watch articles that MATH is flawed and cannot explain how the world is NOT Mathematical.
There is a big difference betweeen video games and board games indeed. Also, there are 3 balances: Theory, Practical and Visual.
I already had a good taste on this 1 decade ago with a mod for Starcraft that I worked on.
And right now, I have to change several calculations. As mentioned in this topic.

questccg wrote:
One such examples is MUSIC. If you watch videos and read about the topic, you'll learn that the MUSICAL SCALE is an APPROXIMATION. Something that most mathematicians are disgusted about ... but it is true.

You got me going "huh?" here. While it is not my job, working on the music. I do know that music is of influence on the experience of players.

questccg wrote:

Same goes for many things in Nature. It's not ALL mathematical.
Nature emerges from math. (I know...)

questccg wrote:
So much like the MUSICAL SCALE and it's approximation ... Be READY to ensure that everything you PROPOSE can be "TWEAKED" at a moment's notice to make for values that are SMOOTHER in the REAL GAME.
Fast updating for continues playtesting, got it.

questccg wrote:
Anyhow IF you don't believe me...
please don't make that assumption.

Anyway, I did see that video once. While it is about music. It is not my job. Nor are they going to create mathematical music....

There are no factions. But if they did. I would have adviced them to have a separate composer per faction, like in EbfD.
But that part is also not my job. I will simply supply numbers to begin with. And I already told the big guy about how theory is different in practise.

It was the first thing I did.

larienna
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For mobile games, don't worry

For mobile games, don't worry too much about music, most people turn it off anyway.

X3M
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larienna wrote:For mobile

larienna wrote:
For mobile games, don't worry too much about music, most people turn it off anyway.

yes

Meanwhile, I am testing a new accuracy system.
A video game die offers so much more options.
And we got to this since we want to have the hit and run factor being present for certain.

Fun part is, I am considering the stats to be like a die. And this helps a lot.
There is a chance on rolling a 0. The rest will be a lineair approach.

larienna
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It the stats are visible to

It the stats are visible to the player, using dice can be easier to visualize.

Try to use the same unit of measurement for damage for example. Endless Space had that issues where 3 different types of weapons where not comparable because they computed damage differently.

questccg
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Good man!

X3M wrote:
...And I already told the big guy about how theory is different in practice. It was the first thing I did.

That's exactly what I meant! I'm sorry to have doubted you O'Wise One! Ha ha.

Anyways way back (like 15+ years ago), I saw an RTS that used CARDS! The cards were a part of a Booster Pack and you could use the various cards as BOOSTS to the units, buildings (when building or training, etc.)

It was pretty neat. Like for example if you played a "Tank Speed Boost", you tanks would MOVE and FIRE FASTER (for a duration of time or until killed - that could be 2 separate cards...) But you had to BUY the cards (like $5.00 for a Digital Booster Pack).

I thought it was a clever ECONOMIC "incentive"... Sort of like your "Gold Boost" when you faced Tracy... Ha ha.

Anyhow you can have CARDS on or off depending on the nature of the battle. But I guess it's a mobile game... Too hard to manage everything. Needs to be kept to a minimum and sufficiently FUN to play...

Cheers!

Note #1: You can have classes of cards that are mutually exclusive. Like a "Riflemen Rate of Attack" Boost CANCELS the "Tank Speed" Boost. So if a boost lasts 60 seconds and you PLAY another CARD, the previous BOOST is cancelled and the Riflemen Boost could be active for 90 seconds.

Anyhow I think it's too complicated. And managing Booster Packs is too complexe for a mobile video game... Yeah sure there are games like "Magic Puzzle Quest":

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.d3p.olympic&hl=en_CA&g...

They are focused on Booster Packs because they are a TAKE on Magic... So of course, they need Booster Pack management and card management, etc.

Note #2: Or a card like "Tachyon Armor" which made all soldiers in one squad invincible for 30 Seconds...

But I'm sure you understand what I mean. We've designed good sh!t together before... I'm just explaining how that OTHER game worked. People would spend monies to have the "extra" cards. And since it is computerized each "Tachyon Armor" could be played THREE (3) Times before being exiled or discarded... etc.

questccg
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I agree with you 100%

larienna wrote:
For mobile games, don't worry too much about music, most people turn it off anyway.

My explanation was that not everything works as THEORY might state. Like the irrational numbers that are used on the MUSICAL SCALE are all irrational numbers and are not as Pythagoras had initially presumed. He and his followers were under the belief that EVERYTHING in life was "mathematical" ... Math was like a religion to them...

Anyways we now that the MODERN MUSICAL SCALE is all "approximations" in tones and that none of the tones are exact numbers (be it fractions or numbers). They are ALL irrational numbers and we know that they cannot be represented as a ratio of two numbers. That's all that I was saying. I was not suggesting that you be a part of the MUSIC DEPARTMENT ... Only that THEORY works good for modeling and that in PRACTICE you will probably need to TWEAK things to get the approximations required by the game itself.

And yeah for a Mobile Game, I would probably turn OFF the music. Less Battery usage and prolonged Battery life. Unless I can use my BlueTooth Earbuds which produce the SOUND and use very little Battery from the SmartPhone.

Sincerely!

X3M
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questccg wrote:My explanation

questccg wrote:
My explanation was that not everything works as THEORY might state. Like the irrational numbers that are used on the MUSICAL SCALE are all irrational numbers and are not as Pythagoras had initially presumed. He and his followers were under the belief that EVERYTHING in life was "mathematical" ... Math was like a religion to them...
I could fit right in there :D

On a side note. Boosts are not going to be used during the game. I can't tell you of the system.
But certain decisions are going to be taken prior.

questccg wrote:

And yeah for a Mobile Game, I would probably turn OFF the music. Less Battery usage and prolonged Battery life. Unless I can use my BlueTooth Earbuds which produce the SOUND and use very little Battery from the SmartPhone.
I think that other parts of the mobile take up much more energy. The screen and processor for certain.

larienna
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Frame rate is probably THE

Frame rate is probably THE element that drains the battery.

Funny that you talk about music scale and irrational numbers. Lately I tried to find again if there was documentation or software that allowed generating music using mathematics. I could not find any software.

I made some tests in the past with the Fibonnaci sequence. The results where below average, but maybe there could be other number sequence or mathematical concept that could be used to generate music with or without configuration by a human.

The objective would be to generate melodies à la NES or 8bit video games. Nothing fancy besides tones and timing.

X3M
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Music

has its own formula....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK2jYk37Rlg

Think this is the best video on having examples on the end with the same song.

There ya go larienna:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK2jYk37Rlg

questccg
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That's a good video too!

I could never tell the note differences... To me the tones all sounded the SAME. When he was asking for comparing the tones (two at a time)!

As I would say: "Music is irrational!" Ha ha.

larienna
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I only see a 3 minute ad to a

I only see a 3 minute ad to a webinar. How do I access the content?

Found some books that talks about math and music. It's an interesting subject, I just have tons of things to work on, so I cannot afford to spare time on it.

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