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Damage resistance mechanic help

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Squinshee
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I'm making a game that desperately needs a versatile damage resistance mechanic. There are three attack types, and monsters are resistant to one type, neutral to another, and weak to the remaining type. Simple percentage resistances and bonuses have little design space to craft a wide arrange of attacks, but I can't think of another way to implement such a thing. Help?

RBanuelos
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Not much to go off of but

You can always go with keywords and images that represent keywords. Something like a simple series of symbols somewhere on the card (I'm assuming cards) can relay a lot of information such as Heroclix.

In the game the miniatures are small and leave very little room for information and yet so much of it is there. A simple color represents damage reducers. Each figure has a dial that rotates around that changes movement, attack, defense and damage values. Some characters do higher damage from range and some from close combat, player know this because a color shows up on the attack value. The same is true for defense values, sometimes they are harder to hit based on the attack.

Another game that kind of had a system like this was Redakai
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/98203/redakai

Could you give specific details on the game?

Procylon
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Do your attack types already

Do your attack types already have themes? A creature attacks with 1 attack type; why does it obliterate that resistance? Why does another resistance obliterate the attack?

Creating themes and tying them to each attack and defense type will be key for your system to both work and make sense to the player.

I second RBanuelos' suggestion to use color coding.

Squinshee
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Truthfully, my game plays a

Truthfully, my game plays a lot like the Pokemon handheld games with several modifications. You and your opponent pick a monster that can morph between three predetermined forms. You both perform your turn's actions simultaneously, in a double-blind fashion. Your three actions are A) perform one of the actions on the current monster form in play, B) morph into a different form, and C) charge your energy. Generally: Monster Action beats Charge, Charge beats Morph, and Morph beats Monster Action (RPS-like system). Morphs occur first, the Monster Actions, then Charging.

There are three attack types, and each monster form has unique resistance's and weakness's towards the differing types. So if you think the opposing player is going to use an attack that your form is weak to, you'd morph into a form that's resistant to it.

I hope this makes sense?

X3M
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I suspect you are going to

I suspect you are going to work with numbers?

Then how about that a specific type has a reduction of 2 to one type of attack and an increase of 2 to another type. Of course a modification of 0 to the neutral one.
If it is 3, then it would be -3, +0 or +3.

This way, the more protection something gives in one situation. The more risk it has in another.

It is a bit like having those percentages. But easy to calculate with.
And you can also have mixed types like -1, -1, +2 or -3, -1, +4.

I hope this was of use.

Jarec
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How about something different

How about something different for each creature, nominated by their cards?

Let's say that poison monster Toxomon is attacking with Paper, the opponent unfortunately chooses Rock for defense. Toxomon's card would say that when it's Paper attack is not defended, it would do poison effect in addition to normal damage.
And it's Paper attack would also state that when defended (opponent choosing Scissors), it would only deal the poison effect, without the damage. Or something along those lines.

This way you could also include different levels of risk to the game, where super good attacks would be catastrophical to the attacker when opponent wins the defense.

Squinshee
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Thanks for the feedback! @

Thanks for the feedback!

@ X3M:

There's a collectible card game online called Kongai found on Kongregate. It too uses Pokémon as a design template with various changes. In it, there are three types of attacks, and each character in your party of three has a resistance number associated with each attack type. So let's say George has a physical attack resistance of 4. If he's hit with a physical attack for 20 damage, you'd subtract his 4 physical resistance from the 20 attack, and that leaves 16 damage.

The beauty of this system shows itself in the addition of attacks that hit multiple times. Let's say George was hit with a physical attack of 7 that hits 3 times in total. You'd calculate like this: 7 (attack damage) - 4 (George's physical resistance) = 3. Each hit deals 3 damage, so 3 x 3 = 9 total damage. What this system enables is a wider variety of interesting attacks, mind games, and cost/benefit analysis.

Multihit Attacks: Cost less than normal attacks, are roughly as strong as normal attacks against characters weak to it. However, these are quite bad if the opponent predicts the attack type and switches to a character with a strong resistance.

Normal Attacks: Cost more than multihit attacks, but there's less risk associated with how much damage they'll deal.

I love this system for all these reasons, but most importantly because of how EASY it is to calculate. Simple arithmetic. (David Sirlin is a damned genius). As much as I'd love to copy this, I feel like my game can do something different that's equally interesting.

@ Jarec

That's an interesting idea with solid design space. My one concern is that even though each monster form has its own card, listing its abilities and such, this might be too much information to put on the card. Best idea so far though. My gears are slowly turning again.

larienna
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Simple idea from my video

Simple idea from my video game redesign of Wizardry that could help you for your game.

First, elemental resistance like Fire, poison etc. Simply does half damage. Another solution could be minimal damage (min value on damage roll). Weakness does double damage (ex: weak to fire)

Another idea for damage resistance given by armor and other defenses, is that you make a save (roll 1D20 vs target value), if you succeed, you get half damage if you fail you get full damage. (It avoid damage range problems when dmg reduction is higher than inflicted damage)

Could be combined with elemental resistance above on a success dmg resit. 1/2 for Dr and 1/2 dor element = 1/4 final damage.

Hope it helps.

Kroz1776
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Dice

Another way to implement this is that you can roll dice for attack/defense. If they switch to a type that is resistant, then you roll dice one size smaller. So lets say you roll the d8 for a normal attack, resistant then makes you roll d6s instead.

Another option is to give each monster their own resistance "power." Thus a straight up defensive monster might have a resistance that lowers damage per a certain amount each hit, thus multiple weak attacks would suck against him. Another monster might have a resistance that instead of making him get hurt less, ups his attack power next round. These "powers" would only work though when hit by something they're resistant too.

X3M
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Ah yes, multipliers for the

Ah yes, multipliers for the numbers. I love this kind of math. You see it a lot in RTS games. But also some FPS. I used to do something similar for a previous board game. It can be very easy.

Don't worry about copying. Just don't look at his mechanic and make one for yourself.

Squinshee
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@ larienna: Sounds a lot like

@ larienna:

Sounds a lot like Pokémon to me which is a system that works, but I'm not convinced that that's the kind of math I want to force players into. That's goes doubly for division - I made a 7x7 type chart in an early design and that math was really too cumbersome and added little, if anything, to the game. This type of system is stronger when a computer is there to compute it all. I think addition and subtraction are as far as I want to go.

@ Kroz1776

Dice are another thing I'm straying away from. That's more of a personal issue, as I find that dice are an easy solution - not the right solution - to challenging design concerns.

@ X3M

The more I think about Kongai's mechanic, the less I like it for my game. It works better on computer than on tabletop.It's frustrating to find that someone else devised a mechanic that's pretty darn close to what I wanted, but that's okay. I'll think of something that works for me.

Jarec's idea is all I could think about today. Again, I worry about inelegance, lots of text, and maybe that it creates too many factors to consider, but playtesting it will be the most telling. It depends on how I approach it (and what's exciting is that there's a LOT of ways to do so).

Thanks for the thoughts guys. I truly appreciate them.

questccg
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I'll TRY to help...

Squinshee wrote:
...So let's say George has a physical attack resistance of 4. If he's hit with a physical attack for 20 damage, you'd subtract his 4 physical resistance from the 20 attack, and that leaves 16 damage.

The beauty of this system shows itself in the addition of attacks that hit multiple times. Let's say George was hit with a physical attack of 7 that hits 3 times in total. You'd calculate like this: 7 (attack damage) - 4 (George's physical resistance) = 3. Each hit deals 3 damage, so 3 x 3 = 9 total damage. What this system enables is a wider variety of interesting attacks, mind games, and cost/benefit analysis.

Multihit Attacks: Cost less than normal attacks, are roughly as strong as normal attacks against characters weak to it. However, these are quite bad if the opponent predicts the attack type and switches to a character with a strong resistance.

Normal Attacks: Cost more than multihit attacks, but there's less risk associated with how much damage they'll deal...

Okay like the title says : "I'll TRY to help..." BUT first I need to better understand the combat mechanics you think are REAL COOL and then I'll see what I can come up with.

1. So you have *Physical Attack* of X points that is offset by a *Physical Resistance* of Y points.
2. Such an attack (normal attack) costs more to do.
3. Q1: How are costs determined? Is it like Mana (in MtG)? Or something else? Please explain.
4. Multi-hit attack can happen and are offset by risks of using it.
5. So for a multi-hit attack you have *Physical Attack* of A points that is offset by a *Physical Resistance* of B points.
6. Q2: Are *Physical Attack/Resistance* the SAME or DIFFERENT for a normal attack (as compared to a multi-hit)?
7. Q3: How do you determine how MANY attacks in the multi-hit attack?

That should get me started... I need to understand how the existing mechanics work (that's why I have questions). To you it might be obvious, to me there is still things that are unclear.

Hopefully when you get me those answers, I will understand the combat mechanics better and see what I can think up (no guarantees - but I'll see what may arise)!

Squinshee
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@ questcgg My description of

@ questcgg

My description of Kongai, with its three resistance values and multihit system, was simply an example to illustrate a system that accomplishes what I'm sort of looking for. This is not a system I wish at all to copy.

In MY game there are three attack types: Rock, Paper, and Scissor. The monster you control has three forms, one for each type (again: rock, paper, and scissors). Rock form is weak to Paper attacks, etc., etc. Rock form can still have a Paper attack, but it'll be weaker than a Paper form's or it'll cost more energy (I explain in next paragraph). Exactly HOW they're weak to attack types is what I'm trying to determine. Something with simple math (addition, subtraction, MAYBE multiplication) to no math would be ideal. Jarec's idea - each attack specifically details what it does to each of the three types (if attack hits rock - 20 damage; if attack hits paper - 10 damage; if attack hits scissor - no damage) - involves no math (yay!), but has the potential to become too convoluted, too much to read, and make decisions too difficult to process (boo!).

Energy, my game's resource, still isn't something I know exactly how to handle. Currently, I'm thinking that the form you're currently using recharges 1 energy at the end of each turn while the other forms recharge 2 each, with some # being the maximum energy a monster form can have (this isn't set in stone because I don't want it to be obvious when a player chooses morphs to another form).

I hope this helps. And remember - I'm not looking to use a multihit system, or have each form have specific resistances to each of the three types.

questccg
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Okay this is my suggestion

Squinshee wrote:
...I hope this helps. And remember - I'm not looking to use a multihit system, or have each form have specific resistances to each of the three types.

Yes it does. Why not simply have THREE (3) resistance types and then apply a *formula* for the corresponding form. Let's see if an example can explain my suggestion:

A. You have Monster ("Dinosaur Maximus") that has three (3) Attacks on the Left-Hand-Side of the card.
B. That same monster has three (3) Resistances on the Right-Hand-Side of the card.

Okay so six (6) stats is pretty high. But I can picture it on either side of the card (it wouldn't be too bad).

C. You need to use *SIMPLE* mathematics!
D. Red (Form "A") has an attack of X and a Resistance Y. That is when the attack is "A" vs. "A" (normal odds).
E. Red (Form "A") has an attack of 2X and a Resistance Y/2. That is when the attack is "A" vs. "B" (double attack - but dangerous half defence).
F. Red (Form "A") has an attack of X/2 and a Resistance 2Y. That is when the attack is "A" vs. "C" (very weak attack (half) - but also VERY resistant).

I know you don't like DIVISION... But it could work IF YOU KEEP THE NUMBERS SIMPLE. Twice will always be EASY to compute. HALF (X/2) needs SIMPLE, EVEN numbers to work...

Again this is just my idea... You can play around with the stats all you like, these *formulas* allow you to define three (3) forms with six (6) stats and resolve all difference using the formulas.

Now maybe you can simplify things (esthetically). Maybe with *colours* or hints... To make it more obvious AND TO EVEN CHANGE THE FORMULAS... I think it can be done "smartly"... But again you might not like this solution...

Note: For the six (6) stats, it's pretty easy to figure out. "A" = Red, "B" = Green and "C" = Blue. Colour coded and simple... Then you can *mix* things up to confuse players even more... (like I said changing the formulas)...

questccg
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To clarify mixing colour

So in my example Red "A" vs. Red "A" produced a NORMAL attack (no bonus or penalty). But using colours you could MIX things up.

For example Red "A" vs. Blue "A" produces a NORMAL attack... Get it?

You can vary the difference using which colours you use. Again it's six (6) stats with division - BUT it can go a LONG way in defining very interesting odds.

ALSO I did not mention *bonuses* or *penalties*. This could ADD even MORE to the mix.

Say for example for my Monster ("Dinosaur Maximus"), I am in Red (Form "A") and I am attacking a Form "B"...
There could be a DEFENSIVE BONUS if I am attacking an "Insidious Velociraptor" of +3 Res. So I calculate using the formula "Y/2" +3 ... Makes me a little bit stronger against those suckers...

AGAIN just an idea - I just wanted to give you an example to show HOW FLEXIBLE this combat mechanic really is...!

Note: I'm not saying is the *SIMPLEST* solution - but it is interesting. I'm just re-working colour differences and how they work. Easiest way is to go with the stardard:

Red Attack "A" vs. Red Resistance "A"
Green Attack "B" vs. Green Resistance "B"
Blue Attack "C" vs. Blue Resistance "C"

Those are the *simplest* three (3) matches... Mixing up the colours can be daunting (at first). But if people get into your game, they'll want something that not too simple.

Anyhow it gives you something to think about... Maybe you can derive something from this idea!

questccg
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To better visualize the *formulas*

I realize the solution sounds very simple (just apply the *formulas*). So I'll break down ALL the formulas AS THEY SHOULD APPLY:

1x: Red Attack "A" --- 1x: Red Resistance "A"*
2x: ---------------------- 1/2x: Green Resistance "B"
1/2x: -------------------- 2x: Blue Resistance "C"

1x: Green Attack "B" --- 1x: Green Resistance "B"*
2x: ------------------------- 1/2x: Blue Resistance "C"
1/2x: ----------------------- 2x: Red Resistance "A"

1x: Blue Attack "C" --- 1x: Blue Resistance "C"*
2x: ----------------------- 1/2x: Red Resistance "A"
1/2x: --------------------- 2x: Green Resistance "B"

That's the *standard* formulas...

Now if you MIX colours (as an example, I'll do one):

1x: Red Attack "A" --- 1x: Blue Resistance "C"*
2x: ---------------------- 1/2x: Red Resistance "A"
1/2x: -------------------- 2x: Green Resistance "B"

1x: Green Attack "B" --- 1x: Red Resistance "A"*
2x: ------------------------- 1/2x: Green Resistance "B"
1/2x: ----------------------- 2x: Blue Resistance "C"

1x: Blue Attack "C" --- 1x: Green Resistance "B"*
2x: ----------------------- 1/2x: Blue Resistance "C"
1/2x: --------------------- 2x: Red Resistance "A"

All you really need to remember is the RPS-3 Colour rule: Red "A"->Green "B"->Blue "C"->Red "A"

That's how it works out (in details). But you never NEED to specify that much details.

Note: The (*) indicates the matches that MUST appear on the cards. Only three (3) are used for any card...

Note 2: I'm wondering if you could design a *visual aid* that could help figure out the *formulas*. I know it seems a little bit *complexe*. Really it isn't, the *formulas* stay the same. What changes are the colours and forms... Which is EXACTLY what your OP wanted!

I'll think about the *visual aid* because "ABC", "BCA" and "CAB" are the three (3) possibilities. It needs to be one of those three. It just depends which form matches with them... If you had a *visual aid* you could use during the game, it would be nice and simple and second nature then.

X3M
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@ Squinshee 1- I understand

@ Squinshee

1- I understand that you want RPS. Primary effect.
2- And you want the type of unit Armor being of influence on the attacks done by that same unit. Secondary effect.
(Do you want the primary effect of the defender also be of influence?)
3- But you also want an extra weakness and strength to a multiple attack. Tertiary effect.
A- You only want additions and subtractions for the players to handle. Type of effects.

Now I see the troubles you are having.
Overview and Choices.

Overview:
If you make an overview following 1, 2 and 3. While keeping A in regard. You might see that players need to do some calculations for each attack.
Having 2 or 3 statistics to work with is normal for players to calculate with. However, if I follow your rules. I need at least 6 (7) statistics to calculate with: damage A, damage multiplier A, armor B, armor type unit A, armor type unit B, damage type A, (and Health B).
However, you need to write it down with all the statistics first. And how you calculate with them. Then make your choices on the numbers.

And perhaps you can simplify by combining some statistics. Which you need to do for players to do fast and easy calculations.
For example: In my game I have Health linked to the Armor type of the Unit. (-1 = 6) =6.
But the Armor type is also the Armor. -1 = 5
The Damage type is also the Damage. -1 =4
The Armor of only 1 unit is used. -1 = 3
You don't calculate with the multiplier, instead you roll. -1 = 2
Although, I also have a 2 rolls for accuracy and a roll for agility. So 4 rolls, where the dice calculate for the players.

I only have 2 variables for players to calculate with. And then I say to the players;
simply take the lowest number out of Damage or Armor. Then "multiply" this with the dice remaining.

So I have a lot of statistics, which is not a problem once players understand how to use them (not). But players don't have to be able to calculate.

Set up an overview.
Make choices; formula and numbers.
See if you can simplify and do so.

questccg
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Check this out...

Take a peek at the following IMAGE: http://www.bgdf.com/node/13862

It shows Strengths and Weaknesses for Pokemon creatures... The odd COINCIDENCE is that they use the SAME kind of *formulas* that I had proposed: 1x, 2x and 0.5x (which is 1/2x)!!!

So maybe my solution is more of a standard approach to solving the RPS Morphing dilemma... This graph is PROOF that the solution has MERITS!

Good luck with your game!

Note: I had never seen the Pokemon mechanics - so it's a first for me. I find it cool that people are on the same page as me! :)

Procylon
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Here is the system I

Here is the system I developed for my card game:

2x Damage Crit
Power(R) > Health(S)
Accuracy(P) > Resistance(R)
Speed(S) > Evasion(P)

1x Damage Normal Hit
Power(R) = Resistance(R)
Accuracy(P) = Evasion(P)
Speed(S) = Health(S)

.5X Damage Critical Failure
Power(R) < Evasion(P)
Accuracy(P) < Health(S)
Speed(S) < Resistance(R)

In other words:

Power = Rock
Accuracy = Paper
Speed = Scissors

Resistance = Rock
Evasion = Paper
Health = Scissors

PenteVPM
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Using visualization in cards

Hi,

one solution I came up with uses visualization of cards themselves to help the players determine damage taken. Let's assume that the right hand side of the cards is "attack side" and the left hand side is "defence side". On the attack side there are pips or "attack marks" at different vertical positions - for example three at the top, none at the middle and one at the bottom. On the defence side, there are three coloured sections - white, blue and red. Positions and size of these sections may vary freely in card-by-card basis - for example, there could be a card that has defence side with white top-half, then 1/4 blue section and finally 1/4 red section.

When attacking, you align the attack side of the attacking card against the defence side of the defending card. For each attack mark in the white section of the defending card, the defender takes 1/2 damage; for each attack mark in the blue section, 1 damage; and for each attack mark in the red section, 2 damage.

This system makes it possible to fine-tune resistances and weaknesses in defence (by changing size or position of different coloured sections) and in attack (by adding and removing attack marks at different vertical positions). However, damage calculations are still easy adding (sum up all attack marks at different coloured defence sections). If you want, you can easily throw some special abilities in the mix (for example, "In defence, this card's blue defence counts as white, if there are attacks in the red section" etc).

BR,
PenteVPM

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