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Interest check...new game idea

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Fri, 10/28/2016 - 01:20
WikkedWood
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The game is a PvP simulation of a jury trial.

One player is the State and the other is the Defense.

The main mechanic is call and response card play during one side's case to build up Proof/Doubt tokens (or supress them) into a pool that can be allocated periodically to randomized juror tiles.

The endgame mechanic compares a final score of proof for each juror vs. an initially hidden value of their Burden (threshold to vote guilty) and their Influence on other jurors.

The victory states are conviction, full acquittal, and hung jury (guilty vs. not guilty votes).

That is the minimal subset of what I will be prototyping and playtesting shortly. Lots of stretch ideas are in the pipeline such as a Justice track for judge attitude, press and justice cards for global effects, opening argument cards to set initial conditions, using cards to find out the juror's thresholds, keywords for interesting combinations, and a mistrial track for an added Defense victory condition. That stuff is worked out in my mind's eye but too large to test the base mechanics.

The question remains...would a PvP jury trial game interest today's discerning gamer?

Thanks for your time :)

WikkedWood

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Fri, 10/28/2016 - 01:36
#1
HPS74
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Thanks for sharing your game

Thanks for sharing your game idea :)

IMO the kind of game you describe may interest folks who like to debate (I wanted to say argue) but I'm not sure how many would like to go back and forth in verbal conflict as a game. Sure it happens over other boardgame when a conflict arises, but as the main mechanic, you'l' need to attract a lot of alpha gamers.

Kudos for a novel idea though :)

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Fri, 10/28/2016 - 01:46
#2
WikkedWood
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Objection! Lol

Thank you for your reply!

The argunents are abstracted to the cards and are brought to life with flavor text. The base and bonus values could be anything really, but thematically they buy proof and doubt tokens. During the State case they play their case cards and the Defense plays Response cards...that flips of course during the defense case. Card types played as combos and responses optimizes the amount of proof or doubt that goes to the jurors to achieve a victory condition.

That was a very long road to say there is no actual mechanic for verbally arguing anything. You probably knew that but I wanted to clear it up anyway.

Thank you again

Ww

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Fri, 10/28/2016 - 02:48
#3
Gabe
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I think the theme is a really

I think the theme is a really interesting idea.

Could you put some euro style mechanics in there where the players gather clues, testimonies, doubt tokens, etc? There could be an "investigate" phase that plays like a worker placement game and then a "courtroom phase" in which the players use the resources they gathered in various ways to try to prove guilty or innocent.

If done well, the "courtroom phase" could have some deduction elements in it in which players try to out-maneuver each other. A sort of "point/counterpoint" kind of thing.

Anyway, those are just some random thoughts.

And all that to say, go for it.

Also, have you seen this video game:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Wright:_Ace_Attorney

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Fri, 10/28/2016 - 11:14
#4
WikkedWood
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Awesome additions!

Gabe,

I have not seen that video game but I will check it out!

The first part you mentioned there is sort of in the game and hybrid Euro-y, in that you play cards to collect the tokens in the pool, then at the end of the trial day, you allocated them to jurors represented by tiles based upon either known or unknown thresholds to vote guilty. I didn't mention before that their are cards to play "Voir Dire" that doesn't add any tokens that play, but allows you to discover the threshold numbers for the jurors to reduce uncertainty.

I have jotted down all that you have suggested on a list with other stuff that could be added. If the courtroom only game proves to be shorter and less complicated than I fear it is, then perhaps an investigative phase could work! OR, I can simulate that in the main flow through some sort of deck search mechanic so you can (if your investigators are up to snuff) prepare your hand ideally for the next trial day. So many possibilities...and searching BGG database, I have yet to come across an immersive courtroom game from this century.

Thank you so much for your thoughts!

WW

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Fri, 10/28/2016 - 15:06
#5
saluk
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Haha a long time ago I tried

Haha a long time ago I tried to create a card game based on the style of courtroom antics in the Phoneix Wright games. I had a hard time, because I wanted to be too literal and could not find the right abstraction. A common problem for me.

What you describe sounds quite different - almost like an area control game or the lights out puzzle over the jurors. Maybe the jurors respond well or poorly to certain kinds of evidence (suits?) with the goal being to capture as many of them as you can. Opponent can weaken or throw out your evidence to dampen it's effects, or present their own evidence that swings things in the other direction.

Clearly the theme appeals to me, I don't have a good idea about other discerning gamers. It did take a while and a lot of word of mouth for the Phoenix Wright series to gain traction in the west in big part due to the theme. Not that people are turned off by lawyers in general, but there was an absence of imagination about how that could make a good game.

Which seems silly to me, trials are essentially a kind of game already.

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Fri, 10/28/2016 - 15:43
#6
Gabe
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saluk wrote: Which seems

saluk wrote:

Which seems silly to me, trials are essentially a kind of game already.

You're dead on there. And with the INCREDIBLE popularity of lawyer TV shows, I'm surprised there haven't been games that explore the topic.

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Fri, 10/28/2016 - 17:07
#7
WikkedWood
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Same here...

It IS silly. The trigger for me was watching lots of board games come out about Medicine and Law Enforcement and Fire. But no courtroom games?

Well, of course, early on into the design and development I found out why - it's not easy to abstract with mechanics that marry obviously with the theme. But I think I am on the right path, and with all of the elements you guys have thrown forth, there's more than enough ideas to rapid prototype and playtest for months to come.

Obviously the FUN element is going to be the next major thing to assess. I can make algorithms all day that theoretically play well and would offer a math major some fun in optimization. But I really want to develop this into something that FEELs like the drama of a murder trial.

And yes, I have on the pad lots of ideas to expand the base game into all the different types of evidence and investigative technique that would appeal to some jurors over the other. But like I said, getting the bare bones murder trial with traditional Perry Mason type of courtroom battle is proving enough for a team of one to get moving.

Thanks all for the awesome suggestions and the proper amount of fuel to keep plugging away!

WW

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Tue, 11/01/2016 - 06:04
#8
Rory J. Somers
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Cracking Idea

I think the idea is really novel, and you're right there are few to no court room style games, so this would fit that niche perfectly.

The thing that interests me most is how a player will sway the jury - I'd suggest checking out Statecraft (http://itbboardgames.com/games/statecraft/) which was a recent successful Kicksarter campaign and how they dealt with gaining/losing voters - except with a Jury the players would start out knowing nothing about how the Jury will respond - say 12 cards dealt face down to represent the members of the Jury that players have to try and earn the right to reveal their information (like the book/film Runaway Jury), until then players have to argue very broadly, and as they learn more they can then attempt to sway more of the jury to their stance based on evidence/testimony/style etc.

In short, I'm interested, very interested and I think this will be a very challenging idea, but would equally be extremely rewarding.

Good luck, and keep me posted!

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Tue, 11/01/2016 - 09:28
#9
WikkedWood
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Thank you for the response

You are exactly right. The game already has in it hidden information for the Juror tiles. These are scores of Burden and Influence. Burden is how much Proof is needed for them to vote guilty, Influence is will they roll over with what the crowd says or will they sway the crowd. The information is revealed through game play, mainly by playing a Voir Dire card (which foregos any token generating action that turn).

It pleases me greatly that others are coming up with great ideas that I can use or have already used but can tweak qith something I have not yet thought of. Makes me feel like I am on the right track...which is nearly impossible when you are lone wolfong it.

WW

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Wed, 11/02/2016 - 05:07
#10
Rory J. Somers
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Keep us in the loop

Sounds like you have your stamp of interest approval. Keep us posted with how this develops.

If you haven't seen it already, check out 12 Angry Men - its a movie about a trial and is all about the Jury. And of course, anything by John Grisham.

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Wed, 11/02/2016 - 05:42
#11
Arcuate
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I would be interested.

If you could make this work, I would be interested in playtesting it.

You might get some inspiration from Churchill, which features regular conferences, where issues are "debated" but the debate is a heavily abstracted Euro mechanism. I have not yet played it, but I am curious and have read a few reviews. It looks very interesting - and it is not a theme I would have thought suitable for gamifying.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/132018/churchill

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Wed, 11/02/2016 - 05:44
#12
Arcuate
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If you want to put it out for

If you want to put it out for group design work, I would probably be up for that too. But you might want to keep lone-wolfing it.

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Wed, 11/02/2016 - 10:58
#13
WikkedWood
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Wow, thanks for the latest influx of comments!

I have what I think already is a fairly deep and (hopefully) interesting game, and the aim is to playtest at local events in Southern California where I can find them. Closer to the light at the end of the tunnel, I plan to chuck some money in and POD a nearly finished product to send to anyone here that wants to check out the game.

However, just because it all comes together nicely in my head doesn't mean the game is going to be any good, right? If I hit that point where it takes more than tweaks and better flavor text to make it all come together I am going to go back through this thread and look for which of these ideas I should try. At that point, I will definitely be open to co- and group designing with you fine folks.

I really dig collaboration in all my creative pursuits - I will jump on any offer to help out with anyone else's game that interests me, at whatever level of formality the designer desires.

WW

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Wed, 11/02/2016 - 11:05
#14
bbblackwell
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Sure

I always have to remind myself to make my games for me first; make the game I want to play. If you create from this point of inspiration, then you know at least one person thinks it's great, and where there's one, there's at least a thousand others who would share your interest. Just look at all the niche hobbies and fetishes that exist. Did you know there are couples who go to retreats to sit on cakes together? I think a courtroom game would be just fine. hahaha

Seriously, though, a great theme will interest people in a game, and a great game will interest people in a theme, so don't worry.

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Wed, 11/02/2016 - 11:50
#15
WikkedWood
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Very true...

Clearly there will be some folks that would love a well mechanic-ed, fun to play game with a strong courtroom theme.

But when, like all of you probably, if I have six or seven or forty game ideas brewing in my head all at the same time, I would tend to want to work the ones that people like those in this forum (the REAL gamers) would REALLY want to play over something that just kinda gets a "meh, that's been done, but I'm willing to try it" or "I can't see how that would be any fun, but give it a shot". Don't get me wrong, when I get traction in this whole designing thing, I'll definitely burn down the pipeline of ideas and start to hit the "what the hell, let's see if this is any good" games - but we all only have so much time.

Think of it like speed dating. If I want to find a girl that wants to sit on cakes with me, I'm absolutely going to call back the ones who seemed genuinely intrigued by the prospect with wide-eyed anticipation. The ones who raise their eyebrow with an incredulous "oooooookaayyyyyyyy?" I'd put at the bottom of the list. I could be missing out on a surprise, but I really only have the time and energy to chase the matches with the higher batting averages (for now).

To your first point, if I don't like something it doesn't make it past the first gate before I begin the real work on it. Nobody is commissioning any games from me, so I can reserve that hard core work ethic until such a time.

Thank you so much for your insight - one can never be reminded enough just WHY we do this crazy stuff.

WW

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Sat, 11/05/2016 - 15:51
#16
Midnight_Carnival
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Yes

Yes I would like to play it.
Yes, I do like to argue but as you pointed out it would be abstracted.

I personally don't go crazy over TV drama series about courtrooms (although my mom does) but I think that the game in original and that make it interesting.

I don't know exactly how your game will work but might I suggest that you can have arguments and bits of evidence which count individually, but to really win it is better to tie them together. I am imagining a sort of dominoes type "model" of the case being build with players having the option to connect to and "steal" parts of the other player's case rather than just crushing it.

That is an abstracted idea and probably won't help you.

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Sat, 11/05/2016 - 18:07
#17
WikkedWood
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Good stuff

I am actually journaling the early development of the game on this site.

The first concept is pretty set...which will be playtested and whatever doesn't work I am definitely coming back to these posts for inspiration. Thank you for your addition!

WW

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Mon, 11/07/2016 - 12:53
#18
Gabe
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http://www.dicetowernews.com/

http://www.dicetowernews.com/pre-orders-have-opened-for-high-treason-the...

Just saw this. Not sure how similar it is to your game, but so much for never seeing a courtroom game before.

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Mon, 11/07/2016 - 14:59
#19
WikkedWood
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Sweet!

Someone's gotta open the door! Mark Cuban said it's cool to be an early imitator, right? Thanks for the heads up!

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