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"Stop the Goblins!" Brainstorm needed! :)

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felipejoker
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Joined: 06/26/2012

Ok, first of all, I´m really new to board games in general, so, If this idea is already out there somewhere, please let me know.

"Stop the Goblins" is basically an idea of a somewhat tower defense board game. I´ve done some searching and I know this kind of game is best played in a computer/videogame, but I'd like give it a try. I really hope that I can make myself clear...

To get the idea, you could start thinking in a board game for the "Orcs Must Die" computer game. (hope that something like that does not exist already...)

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Game theme: 1 up to 4 heroes have to defend the Mage and his magic Cristal from the hordes of the "Evil Master". He will send waves of creatures, mostly goblins, trying to destroy the cristal.

So, a game for 2 to 8 players.

The game would use a modular board composed of 4x4 tiles.
One of them is the Mage with the Cristal , the place where the goblins have to get to.
One up to four of them are the starting positions for the invading creatures. (according to the number of players)
And linking the start to the end, the 4x4 tiles could be straight coridors, corners, bridges...

If 3 goblins for each defending player gets to the Cristal, the Heroes lose, and the Evil Masters wins.
If the Heroes survive 10(?) waves, they win.

Each "Hero" player have a character and may, right before the start of each wave of enemies, place traps anywhere on the board.

First wave starts with 3 goblins. each next wave adds a goblin to the horde, and possibly more...

Movement can be done to any of the 8 adjacent spaces, so Heroes and goblins may move diagonally. Each space can hold only 1 creature, Goblin or Hero.

Goblins aways move towards the Cristal if possible. And the player controlling them aways moves them from the closest one to the Cristal to the last. Regular goblins may move 1 or 2 squares each time, but have to aways end their movement one step closer to the Cristal.

If a goblin at any time is adjacent to a hero, he must hit that hero before being able to move further. (so, that is a way the heroes can prevent the goblins from simply running to the cristal).

So, the GOBLIN´S TURN:
1) Atack adjacent hero, if any.
2) Move towards the Cristal, if adjacent heroes were hit.
3) Activate traps.

Traps are set by the heroes, occuping some of the little squares on the 4x4 board pieces. ( Basically heroes put a trap marker on the board meaning that if a goblin stops his movement there, he may be hit)

Each trap has its own rules, but basicly te hero player that set the trap rolls a d6, and checks if the goblin is hit or not. EXAMPLE: A regular goblin ends his move on top of a Spike trap (set by the Heroes, on 1 of the squares of a 4x4 board piece). The hero rolls a d6. 4+ means the Goblin is hit, dies and is removed from the board. 3- means the goblin avoided the trap.

Heroes can move and attack in whatever order they want. They move up to 4 spaces each turn.

Combat is pretty much the same. Goblins hit heroes on 5+, and Heroes Hit goblins on 4+.
Regular goblins die with 1 hit.

Heroes are mainly divided as Ranged/melee heroes.

Melee heroes must be adjacent to a goblin to atack, and have 3 "hit points"
Ranged Heroes can atack goblins as far as 2 squares away, but have only 2 "hit points"

Each hero player would have his "Gold Pieces". Each Hero player starts with 10 Gold.
Each regular goblin kill generates 3 gold pieces. Each wave without a goblin getting thru generates gold equal to the wave number (1 to 10)
Basic traps cost 5 gold, better traps cost more.

The Evil Masters gains "Vengeance points" after each wave. With this points he may buy more power powerfull goblins to help him to achieve his goal. For example he could buy a "Goblin Chicken-Rider" that would move up to 4 squares each turn, avoiding most of the traps.

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Well... I think that that is the most of it.
I hope you could understand at least up to some point how the game would work, and help me to make it better.

Thank you for your time and patience! :)
Please ask anything you want to know about it, and criticise! all help is appreciated!

Orangebeard
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Joined: 10/13/2011
first thoughts...

Hi felipejoker,

Welcome to the site!

I played a ton of Plants vs. Zombies this weekend so I am in the tower defense frame of mind...

The board layout will probalby influence the outcome of the games more than anything since there will be a few "bottlenecks" where goblins are cut down like wheat. Were you thinking of a random board design or will there be some tiles that are in a fixed position? Will there be a system that helps ensure the final board layout is playable?

Forced attack on adjacent heroes is probalby a good idea; it also forces the players to protect their heroes rather than using them as battering rams to kill goblins.

Can Heroes buy anything other than traps with their gold?

Since the movement of goblins is predictable, and Heroes will build their traps along these movement paths, will the goblin player know what the trap is before they step on it or will it be secret? If the goblin players knows in advance, they can select the appropriate goblin to defeat the trap.

Do the Hero players know where the goblins will enter or is that a secret until the first goblins arrive?

Is the number of Vengeance points earned between rounds fixed or can the goblins do things that earn them more points?

Do players alternate moves or do all of the heroes move followed by all of the goblins?

Sounds like you are off to a good start!

felipejoker
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Joined: 06/26/2012
Thanks for your help!

Orangebeard wrote:

The board layout will probalby influence the outcome of the games more than anything since there will be a few "bottlenecks" where goblins are cut down like wheat. Were you thinking of a random board design or will there be some tiles that are in a fixed position? Will there be a system that helps ensure the final board layout is playable?

So far, I thought that the board should be arranged with some rules, but not entirely at player´s choice, nor completely random.

So far, I´ve come up with these possible layouts of each 4x4 board pieces: (It will be hard to explain without pictures, how can I add them by the way?)

Corridor: wall on the sides.
Corner: walls on the bottom/top and one of the sides.
Bridge: narrows the 4x4 space to 4 spaces then 2 - 2 - 4 again.
"S": as it sounds, you have to move between 2 walls, moving in an "S" shape.

How do you set them up? My initial idea is this: First the Hero player selects one board piece and put it adjacent to the end or the beginning. Then the Goblins´s player do the same. After 4 board pieces have been placed, the game is set ( so you have the "start" piece, then 4 selected board pieces, then the end).

This is the tricky part (that i´m not sure whether to keep it or not) : each defending player should have a path of 4 board pieces leading to the end. So, if you´re playing with 4 Hero players, the board would somewht resemble a cross, and each player would be "responsable" for a path. They can, however, set lots of traps in one or two of them, and gang up on the others.

What I don´t like of this setting is that it does not favor teamwork. It would take too long to get from one side of the board to another, to help your friend in need.

Also, there is the problem of the choke-points. I want them to really help the Heroes, but I don´t want to leave the action all in one place. It would be cool for the heroes to have, let´s say, 2 main choke points but have to run to each other to make sure no goblin gets past.

Orangebeard wrote:

Forced attack on adjacent heroes is probalby a good idea; it also forces the players to protect their heroes rather than using them as battering rams to kill goblins.

Can Heroes buy anything other than traps with their gold?

I´m thinking of upgraded weapons, so that the heroes can hit not only with 4+, but 3+, or maybe play 2 dice and select the higher, but im not sure yet.

Orangebeard wrote:

Since the movement of goblins is predictable, and Heroes will build their traps along these movement paths, will the goblin player know what the trap is before they step on it or will it be secret? If the goblin players knows in advance, they can select the appropriate goblin to defeat the trap.

After the trap is set, it woul be visible fro all players. I´ll explain why in a bit. :). And, so far, I think that after the trap is set, it will remain in play, activating every turn that a Goblin ends their movement on it. Until it be destroyed.

Orangebeard wrote:

Do the Hero players know where the goblins will enter or is that a secret until the first goblins arrive?

So, say we have 4 players, there will be 4 possible entrances. The Goblin player must place his goblins as evenly as possible, but this may also change, as I will explain.

Orangebeard wrote:

Is the number of Vengeance points earned between rounds fixed or can the goblins do things that earn them more points?

Note sure yet. Probably both. I don´t want the goblin player holding everything up till the last turn so that he can launch a massive atack. Because all other turns woul be just "fillers". So I think they should get a fixed amount + some more based on how many goblins died, and even more if a goblin got thru... Maybe the player will also have a maximum to store up.

Orangebeard wrote:

Do players alternate moves or do all of the heroes move followed by all of the goblins?

For easy playing, I think that there should be the Goblin´s turn then the heroes's turn, but each player among these can be chosen as the team likes. So the archer may wait to se if the warrior kills the goblin and he can run to the other path, or if he has to help his comrade.

Orangebeard wrote:

Sounds like you are off to a good start!

Thanks! That really keeps me motivated!

So, the tweak that I was thinking of was adding 2 decks to the game.

The heroes´s deck, and the Goblins´s.

Every wave, each player would draw a card. And the powers of that cards can be many, and should be kept secret from the opposing team players.

One of the cards could be something like:
"Now THIS is a trap!": Discard this card to place a trap anywhere on the board. It activates as soon as it enters the game. You still need to pay its costs.
-- so the Heroes´s team can really surprise the goblins.

And the Goblins would have cads like:
" No, you fools! That Way!: discard this card at the start of a wave to move 3 of your goblins from one starting point to another.
-- So the goblins can exploit a weakened path!

"Rust": Select one of the 4x4 board pieces. All traps on that board piece don´t activate till your next turn. (or maybe during the hole wave!)
-- Making the Heroes afraid of setting all traps in one choke point.

Also, maybe each player can even buy an additional card each wave, by paying 5 gold.

Thank you very much so far.
Lets keep the brainstorm! :)

Orangebeard
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Joined: 10/13/2011
felipejoker wrote:So far, I

felipejoker wrote:
So far, I thought that the board should be arranged with some rules, but not entirely at player´s choice, nor completely random

Probalby best to have some fixed to ensure that there will be multiple paths to the cristal; it may also work best to have the cristal in the center; maybe even some fixed edge pieces and the players fill in the middle.

felipejoker wrote:
First the Hero player selects one board piece and put it adjacent to the end or the beginning. Then the Goblins´s player do the same. After 4 board pieces have been placed, the game is set ( so you have the "start" piece, then 4 selected board pieces, then the end).

The alternating turns is probably a good idea; maybe they don't get to choose, but instead draw a random tile?

How do you picture the final layout? square? cross? line?

felipejoker wrote:
This is the tricky part (that i´m not sure whether to keep it or not) : each defending player should have a path of 4 board pieces leading to the end. So, if you´re playing with 4 Hero players, the board would somewht resemble a cross, and each player would be "responsable" for a path.

Tricky indeed - maybe the number of players dictates the number of "fixed" paths?

felipejoker wrote:
What I don´t like of this setting is that it does not favor teamwork. It would take too long to get from one side of the board to another, to help your friend in need.

Also tricky; I think teamwork will be encouraged more if the goblins have the ability to shift strategies. Teamwork may also be encouraged if there is enough room for another player to leave their area, help out and then return without jeopardizing their starting area. If the players are afraid to move around, then they won't be as willing to help other areas.

felipejoker wrote:
Also, there is the problem of the choke-points. I want them to really help the Heroes, but I don´t want to leave the action all in one place. It would be cool for the heroes to have, let´s say, 2 main choke points but have to run to each other to make sure no goblin gets past.

Maybe the board setup is different for the 2 sides? for example, the goblin player lays out the major tiles, but the players have a selection of walls, rocks, furniture, traps, etc that they can play on the major tiles to customize them. The goblin players creates as many paths to the cristal as possible while the hero player blocks, bottlenecks or traps as many paths as they can.

felipejoker wrote:
Note sure yet. Probably both. I don´t want the goblin player holding everything up till the last turn so that he can launch a massive atack.

Agreed; I think it would better emulate a tower defense idea if the size of the waves is fixed, but the types of goblins is variable.

felipejoker wrote:
So, the tweak that I was thinking of was adding 2 decks to the game.

This could be cool; a little bit of secret strategy might help capture the feelign of unknown waves coming at you.

felipejoker
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Joined: 06/26/2012
Almost ready for home-playtesting

Orangebeard wrote:

The alternating turns is probably a good idea; maybe they don't get to choose, but instead draw a random tile?
How do you picture the final layout? square? cross? line?

Perfect! Loved the idea of taking random board pieces and then getting to arrange them.

Final layout somewhat similar to a cross. I think I found a way to improve teamwork: Lettng the Heroes build "secret passages" between the lanes. Those would be set as a wall-square on 2 different paths, that would work as a "portal": Heroes may enter at one side and get to the other.

And, so that it does not get unfair to the goblins, I´m planning on adding a card to their deck that alows them to move thru the secret passages as well... :)

Orangebeard wrote:

Maybe the board setup is different for the 2 sides? for example, the goblin player lays out the major tiles, but the players have a selection of walls, rocks, furniture, traps, etc that they can play on the major tiles to customize them. The goblin players creates as many paths to the cristal as possible while the hero player blocks, bottlenecks or traps as many paths as they can.

That can be a good idea. I´ll try some playtesting with the pieces I already have first, but maybe I´ll then try it this way.

Orangebeard wrote:

Agreed; I think it would better emulate a tower defense idea if the size of the waves is fixed, but the types of goblins is variable.

So far the waves are set something like this:
1st: 3 goblins.
2nd: 4 goblins +what you can buy...
3rd: 5 .... + buy
...
8th/9th/10th: 10 goblins + what you can buy.

Prices go from 5 VP for a Goblin Acrobat (+1 dif. penalty for trap atacks against him)
to
50VP Goblin King: All goblins get +1 atack (hit with 4+) and +1 defense (all atacks against them have +1 dificulty) until the king is killed.

So Far, I´m actually thinking of setting the maximum for Vengeance Points at 100. This would already allow the summoning of two Monster-Goblin (ogre) and a Goblin-King, some of the most powerful units I´ve come up with so far.

Also, I´m thinking of setting a penalty to the Goblins players if they don´t get a goblin thru until the 4th wave (-10 VP) and from the 4th to 7th (-20VP). So that the goblin players REALLY want to put some pressure on the defending team.

So far, the vengeance points got arranged like this:

After every wave you get the number of the wave as VP.
+ 2 for each regular goblin killed, and more for each special goblin (acording to their strength)
+10 if a hero was killed.
+15 if a goblin gets thru.

Not sure if it is well balanced yet, but it´s a start.

I´m planning on testing it with some friends ( I already made 30 different cards for each team) and see what happens. I´ll post the results after correcting possible gaps in the rules.

Thanks again for your help!

felipejoker
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Joined: 06/26/2012
After some testing, finally I

After some testing, finally I got to a point where I could play a game with my friends and have tons of fun, without getting too many "bugs" in the gameplay!

Thanks for all the help Orangebeard!

I hope that really soon I´ll be able to set the game up for public playtesting. I just need to explore a little more the options that can go wrong, especially with the cards.

The game idea remains the same, it has only been reduced to 2-4 players, so that it does not get too long and boring.

Do your best.
Stop the Goblins!

Taffer
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Joined: 04/14/2012
Sounds like a really fun

Sounds like a really fun game!

So your original idea was 2-8 players? Was that 4 heroes and 4 goblin players? And now it's 2 vs. 2?

How about doing what many games do and having only one "overlord" (goblin player) and several heroes? From what it sounds like, the goblin players don't have too much to do during their turn, because the goblins' moves are very predictable. Or am I wrong?

felipejoker
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Joined: 06/26/2012
Yep, I had to reduce the

Yep, I had to reduce the number of players so far, because heroes have to defend the cristal 9 waves, and each wave can have from 3-13 goblins.

More players mean more goblins to be challenging, moving every goblins and then checking each trap for each goblin would take too long.

Maybe I´ll add an expansion later...? :)

You do have little choices as a goblin player, but not that little. Since your regular goblins can move UP TO 2 spaces each, and can move diagonally, you can skip lots of traps and give huge cliffhangers for the defending players to escape.

Also, playing ith 2 goblin players let you have more cards to use, and more strategy with your goblin friend.
And, since you use Vengeance points to buy new goblins, you can buy let´s say: 2 Chicken-Riders, that can move up to 4 spaces each, and let you friend get a Monster-Goblin, that has 3 hit points, and move 3 spaces, making the heroes choice of traps even more important so that they can handle the big guy on one side and the really fast ones on the other! :)

Orangebeard
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Joined: 10/13/2011
extreme strategies?

Hi felipejoker,

What type of extreme offense/defense strategies are you testing? For example, one kind of trap or goblin? Large goblins only? Weak goblins only?

I hope your testing is going well!

felipejoker
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Joined: 06/26/2012
Exactly! I´m trying to see

Exactly! I´m trying to see how many of each trap I can let the players build, so that there would be not one "always winning setup", or a way to place the traps that can easy win the game with little effort to build.

It is hard to imagine all the possiblities, and it would be sad if a tester could get a impenetrable defense in, say, 3 turns.

And, on the other side, if I narrow the options too much, the game can become repetitive (always build spikes, then arrows, then the baricades...)

I´ll probably get it tested again this weekend, with some of my friends that haven´t played the game yet, and see how that goes.

The number of goblins on the other side has been easy to decide, and the best option so far has been:

free goblins = wave +2
the first goblin you buy is added to that amount.
The others just "upgrade" a regular goblin. ( so your maximum goblins per wave is wave +3.)

( the free goblin is a way to get each wave to get at least one special goblin, keeping the pressure.)

Thanks again for your help and questions! They keep me motivated!

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