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Simple fight mechanic

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sedjtroll
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Here's an idea I was toying with for a simple fight mechanic... tell me what you think of it. (Scurra: this might look familiar :wink: )

Roll 1d6 for each side or team and add modifiers.
Modifiers come from things like these:
Numbers (2vs1 gets a +1 modifier)
Skill (team with a highly skilled member, or more skilled members, gets a +1 modifier)
Compare the results for each side-
Tie: Both sides suffer hits, both teams take 1 wound (damage).
+1: Every swing is blocked, every thrust parried; keep fighting next turn (No damage).
+2: High roll scores a clean hit! Low rolling team takes 1 wound (damage).
+3: High roll scores a mighty blow! Low rolling team takes 2 wounds (damage).

Retreat- The low rolling side may (or must?) Retreat from combat [perhaps only in a certain case, like if a Mighty Blow is scored against them, or if they run out of stamina/HPs]. The character(s) remains in the same space. Characters beginning a turn on the same space as an
opposing character may choose to fight them, or move without a fight.

sedjtroll
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Simple fight mechanic

So you see, when engaged in a fight, either side may take damage, indeed both sides may. In order to help ensure that you "win" the fight (give you a better chance of not taking damage), you try and get modifiers before you initiate an attack- like attack someone when you outnumber them (2 characters to their 1 for example), or when you are more skilled than they are (say your side has a real badass fighter and the other side doesn't). Similarly, one side could have a Weapon (which would basically make the bearer a "badass").

DarkDream
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Interesting . . .

This is an interesting mechanic. I do not believe I have seen, a different result or outcome based on the difference between two dice (and the modifiers). It sounds like a nice idea in theory, except you'll need some kind of reference table to be able to sort out the outcome of the attack.

I think your main idea here is that there is not simply a hit or miss, it is more of a degree of hitting or missing based on the difference between the two rolls plus their modifier.

Personally I would make it simpler by having a tie as both blocking each other with no damage to each (or both scoring one damage off of each other). The difference between the two scores would indicate the amount of damage to the player with the lower roll. For example, player A has a score of 3 and player B a score of 5. As player B score is higher, he does 2 (5 - 3 = 2) points of damage.

A "mighty blow" could now be 3 or more points of damage scored against an oppoent for a round. This could cause the unit to retreat that received the blow. Such qualifiers would be based on the total number of hits scored for one round.

Just some thoughts.

--DarkDream

sedjtroll
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Re: Interesting . . .

DarkDream wrote:

Personally I would make it simpler by having a tie as both blocking each other with no damage to each (or both scoring one damage off of each other). The difference between the two scores would indicate the amount of damage to the player with the lower roll. For example, player A has a score of 3 and player B a score of 5. As player B score is higher, he does 2 (5 - 3 = 2) points of damage.

Yes, that's pretty much the same thing, and it doesn't require a chart. I had tried to include both "everyone gets hit" and "noone gets hit".

DarkDream
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Simple fight mechanic

I agree, with my method you can neither have either both hit or both miss. I did notice that, but I pushed my method anyway because I personally hate little hit charts.

Just some more thoughts. I do not know how many and how big the modifiers would be, but there would be situations (if a player has a modifier which is five or more greater than his opponent ) that a player's units could never be injured.

To add a little uncertainty, and to give the underdog at least a minimal chance, you could make a rule that if a player rolls a '1' he or she misses regardless of their modifier. That way the little guy could get a hit in (say just one hit regardless of the difference between the die roles) if the far stronger player that can not be injured rolls a 1. If both players roll a one, both miss completely (regardless of each other's modifiers). By introducing the rule of a tie (besides two ones) causing one damage to each party, you can have both no hits and both players receiving a hit.

I don't know, maybe this makes things too complicated.

--DarkDream

sedjtroll
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Simple fight mechanic

DarkDream wrote:
I personally hate little hit charts.

Me too, but if the whole chart is only 3 results then it might be easy enough.

DarkDream wrote:
Just some more thoughts. I do not know how many and how big the modifiers would be, but there would be situations (if a player has a modifier which is five or more greater than his opponent ) that a player's units could never be injured.

The modifiers would be small, +1 for outnumbering (no matter how outnumbered... or maybe +1 per extra guy, but in the game system it's impossible to have more than 4 on 1 so +3 max for outnumbering- which would be huge), +1 for being more skilled, no matter how much more skilled (1 badass vs 1 normal dude = +1 modifier. 1 badass vs 2 normal dudes, +1 to each side. 2 badasses vs 1 normal dude = +2 to the badasses- +1 for badassness, and +1 for outnumbering.)

So if 1 badass gets attacked by 3 normal guys, the modifiers would be +1 to +2, or the 3 guys have a slight advantage which seems right. On the other hand, if 3 badasses gang up on 1 normal dude the bonus is +3 to the badasses... a considerable advantage- as well it should be.

In the game I'm considering this for, there are 4 characters on one team and 2+ characters on the other (2 playable characters and X NPC types, where X may increase during the course of the game). So really, the maximum bonus any team could ever have, ever (due to how the game works) is like 4vs1 where one of the 4 is a badass... that's a +4 modifier. With my little combat chart, on a roll of 1 or 2 the team of 4 can still get hurt (and with my damage rules as I wrote them they'd EACH take a damage)[EDIT: By that I mean it's probably a bad system, the wound(s) should be devided among the team probably] if the lone opponent rolls a 5 or 6 respectively. But with a ganging up like that, chances are the loner will get his butt kicked, as evidenced by the die roll + modifiers.

- Seth

Aerjen
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Simple fight mechanic

I think it sounds like a nice system, but really if you don't pay enough attention, your simple fight mechanic might turn into a horrendously complex fight mechanic. So may 2 cents of advice is to keep it simple. Maybe something like this...

Tie: both score a hit
+1: nothing happens
+2: 1 wound
3 or more: 2 wounds

if a player rolls a one, he always receives 1 wound

if a player is attacked by multiple persons and wins, the whole attacking group receive the wounds (I think tis is fair since it's their idea of teaming up for bonuses. So if you lose, there should be a big disadvantage).

I hope you can use this, since I just realized it mostly sums up previous posts.

And.... Don't use a chart if you don't have to.

Torrent
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Simple fight mechanic

I think I would recommend using the more simple 'difference is damage' thing and look at particular pairs of dice values for the 'everyone gets hit' case. This makes the 'base rule' (the idea of add it all up and subtract) very simple, with the special case being only slightly more complicated. The idea of using an 'offset' table makes the base rule the one that is slightly more complicated (look up on table, atleast in theory until people memorize that), but contains all your results. I just happen to like the idea of trying to keep the most used piece of it the most simple.

Also, how do the wounds get distributed? I had an idea that the winning side deals a number of wounds equal to their number, but that makes the 'out-number' case mroe powerful.

jwarrend
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Simple fight mechanic

Cute idea! I think the most interesting element, for me, is the "ties = everyone takes damage". I've just played Pirate's Cove, and it has some of the same problems that are inherent to Risk -- back and forth dice-fests with lots of rolls needed to achieve any kind of a result. I think that your idea makes battles much more risky, even if you go in strong.

It's a good mechanic, but not, in my opinion, enough to build a game around. But, I'm sure there's much more to the game than what you're telling us. For comparison, consider Risk -- also a simple dice-battle mechanic, but in that game, there are plenty of elements that guide strategy -- wanting to hold an entire continent; wanting to hit another player where he's week, limiting his ability to reinforce; wanting to occupy territories for which you have cards; etc. I think your game will need some kind of a context like that. It shouldn't just be about "guys walking around fighting with each other", because then the fight mechanic has to carry much more of the weight of the game. But for a quick and clean resolution, with minimal complexity, I think it will work well and will guide strategies in an interesting and effective way.

Good luck with the game!

-Jeff

sedjtroll
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Simple fight mechanic

Aerjen wrote:
So may 2 cents of advice is to keep it simple. Maybe something like this...

Tie: both score a hit
+1: nothing happens
+2: 1 wound
3 or more: 2 wounds

I like it :)

sedjtroll wrote:
Compare the results for each side-
Tie: Both sides suffer hits, both teams take 1 wound (damage).
+1: Every swing is blocked, every thrust parried; keep fighting next turn (No damage).
+2: High roll scores a clean hit! Low rolling team takes 1 wound (damage).
+3: High roll scores a mighty blow! Low rolling team takes 2 wounds (damage).

sedjtroll
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Simple fight mechanic

jwarrend wrote:
It shouldn't just be about "guys walking around fighting with each other", because then the fight mechanic has to carry much more of the weight of the game. But for a quick and clean resolution, with minimal complexity, I think it will work well and will guide strategies in an interesting and effective way.

Indeed, it is not all about walking around and fighting...
The game I had in mind for this mechanic was Scurra's actually- All For One. One "team" has 4 characters, the other has 2. Players and Characters are not directly related. The 'bad guys' have some generic Cardinals Guards on their team.

So my suggestion for the important-but-not-central dueling mechanic is that when a Musketeer encounters a Bad Guy they stop moving and start dueling. the duel will be resolved at the end of the round. It would be possible for a second musketeer (or guard) to run in and join the fight. D'Artagnan and maybe Rochfort (one guy per side) might be a better swordfighter than everyone else (badass status).

So you see, the maximum bonus to a duel (which I think is highly unlikely to ever happen) would be all 4 musketeers jumping on 1 Bad Guy (who isn't Rochefort and therefore not a badass). I suppose depending on the other rules a situation could be constructed in which, over a series of turns and tied rolls, a handfull of guards could theoretically 'overwhelm' a single musketeer and get a +6 modifier... but it would take a lot of work.

- Seth

sedjtroll
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Simple fight mechanic

By the way...

Note that the rule for the outnumber bonus could simply be "roll a die for each side. Add the number of combatants on each side to that side's roll"

That might be easier to explain than a +1 modifier for each EXTRA person past the first... and mathematically it's the same thing.

Then the Badasses can have text on them "additional +1 in a duel" or something.

- Seth

sedjtroll
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Simple fight mechanic

I started thinking of this mechanic again. Scurra didn't like it for All for One, so I wonder if there isn't another game it could be used in.

I had thought perhaps a game about a barroom brawl or something, but like jwarrend said this combat mechanic couldn't really carry a game by itself.

Anyone have any ideas for a team situation, where this combat mechanic could be used to quickly yet interestingly resolve fights?

- Seth

stumps
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Simple fight mechanic

DarkDream wrote:
This is an interesting mechanic. I do not believe I have seen

*cough*Shadowrun*cough*

Shadowrun is a roalty product of WizKids of wizkidsgames.com, and was a copyrited product of FASA of FASA.com until FASA went bankrupt and WizKids bought the copyrites back using their royalty money from Shadowrun, so now it is a copyrited product of Wizkids and published by FanPro of fanpro.com who has always published shadowrun...except for the alpha version which was printed by WizKids when they were just ...Kids.
If you want to know what the hell shadowrun is click here

SVan
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Simple fight mechanic

stumps wrote:
DarkDream wrote:
This is an interesting mechanic. I do not believe I have seen

*cough*Shadowrun*cough*

Shadowrun is a roalty product of WizKids of wizkidsgames.com, and was a copyrited product of FASA of FASA.com until FASA went bankrupt and WizKids bought the copyrites back using their royalty money from Shadowrun, so now it is a copyrited product of Wizkids and published by FanPro of fanpro.com who has always published shadowrun...except for the alpha version which was printed by WizKids when they were just ...Kids.
If you want to know what the hell shadowrun is click here

I've played a lot of Shadowrun, and that doesn't look similar to me. In a way, I guess it could be, but I don't see it.

Scurra
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Simple fight mechanic

sedjtroll wrote:
I started thinking of this mechanic again. Scurra didn't like it for All for One, so I wonder if there isn't another game it could be used in.

Actually, following our recent exchanges, I'm starting to think about it again :) [For some reason I missed this thread completely first time around.] It's a much better fit with the "cinematic" approach than the "simulationist" approach. And hey, let's face it, rolling dice just feels more interactive...

stumps
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Simple fight mechanic

SVan wrote:
I've played a lot of Shadowrun, and that doesn't look similar to me. In a way, I guess it could be, but I don't see it.

Hey! How's it goin SVan? Man, bump into fellow DS'rs everywhere. ;)
It seems like a simplified version of melee combat in SR to me.

SVan
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Simple fight mechanic

Looking back I can see a little similarity to Shadowrun, basically the modifers and rolling a d6. In Shadowrun, you can roll a certain amount of D6, then add as little or much dice as you choose through your dice pools.
Then it gets a little more complicated from there (which makes the critics feel like it's too complicated, but like any game if you play it enough, it feels like secon

Where, if I am thinking correctly, you only roll 1 die for this mechanic add the modifers and then compare the player's rolls (which i guess you do also for Shadowrun as well, with less dice.)

Do you remember DMZ? That was basically a tabletop version of Shadowrun, where you only used 2 dice. It had a decent system, but felt a little shallow.

-Steve

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