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Various Card Stock Sources (wanted)

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nickdanger
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Hello,

Does anybody know of a source to purchase what could be considered true card stock? Perhaps the type with a linen finish too?

Side question, what are the specs for card stock, as in what would I request if trying to find out if a source carried the stuff?

Thanks for any info!

--
Nick

VeritasGames
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Various Card Stock Sources (wanted)

Look at our company's website:

http://www.veritasgames.net/cgi-bin/load_page.cgi?content_page=cgi-bin/g...

And scroll down to "playing card stock" in the Glossary in the Game Design Section.

You'll find appropriate links there to two U.S. playing card manufacturers.

Keep in mind, however, that playing card stock is typically ordered by the ton, and is not commonly available as a stack for your home use.

Ask for samples.

nickdanger
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Various Card Stock Sources (wanted)

Quote:
Look at our company's website:

Thanks, I'll do that!

Quote:
Keep in mind, however, that playing card stock is typically ordered by the ton, and is not commonly available as a stack for your home use.

Yeesh!

I could see trying to explain that to my wife as the truck pulls up to the door..

Not too mention the whack to the bank account. Ouch.

--
Nick

VeritasGames
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Various Card Stock Sources (wanted)

If you are looking for something for home or copy shop use, if you have a color laser printer and NOT an inkjet printer, then you can probably use either 12 point or 14 point C2S stock. That is often available in 8.5" x 11" sheets or can be ordered cut that way in a smallish quantity. If you don't know what that means, visit our site in the Game Design section under the glossary, and it'll explain each of the terms I just used.

jwarrend
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Various Card Stock Sources (wanted)

VeritasGames wrote:
Look at our company's website:

In the same amount of effort required to paste the link, could you not have just pasted the entry that you referenced so that the information can be immediately seen by all? Following a link isn't that much work, but it's just that little bit more work for readers that makes it just that little bit less useful.

-Jeff

VeritasGames
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Various Card Stock Sources (wanted)

jwarrend wrote:
VeritasGames wrote:
Look at our company's website:

In the same amount of effort required to paste the link, could you not have just pasted the entry that you referenced so that the information can be immediately seen by all? Following a link isn't that much work, but it's just that little bit more work for readers that makes it just that little bit less useful.

-Jeff

People post links to stories and articles here all the time, particularly on breakthroughs in game-related technology.

I typed just the link on purpose. If people know about the contents of our company's website in the Game Design section they will find a resource to find a lot of answers to commonly asked questions. It's got lots of articles on key subjects and a glossary of terms. If people don't go there, they won't know about the resource. They'll keep asking the same questions. We'll keep retyping the same answers.

I created it precisely because on BGDF, on RPG.NET, and on the Forge, a lot of questions get asked over and over again. For the things I know something about, I try to document them on our company's website.

If something goes beyond our website's contents then I give a more detailed answer in a thread.

VeritasGames
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By the way, some of the best C2S stock I've seen is Tango stock. If you go with that instead of true playing card stock, then you can probably check with Ris Paper

http://www.risusa.com/locations.htm

or some other major paper wholesaler to get the stock.

http://www.tangopaper.com/

Tango is made by Mead West Vaco. They will send you a lot of samples, but probably will force you to go to Ris or another reseller to purchase it.

A nice 14 point C2S is a great substitute for true playing card stock if you are on a budget. You can also find thousands more printers who you can use if you use a 12 or 14 point C2S instead of limiting yourself to true playing card stock. Playing card stock does have its advantages.

Check out our website in the glossary and in the articles for "postcard printer" and printing cards on a budget. Don't know anything about your project, but I'm trying to give you some cost saving alternatives for home or Indie production.

Cheers

nickdanger
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Various Card Stock Sources (wanted)

Quote:
Don't know anything about your project, but I'm trying to give you some cost saving alternatives for home or Indie production.

And it's well appreciated.

I've ordered some samples and am also trying some off the wall home brewed concoctions. If I stumble across anything of note I'll report back in case anyone else is looking for a decent substitute for "real" card stock.

--
Nick

nickdanger
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Various Card Stock Sources (wanted)

After running some sample tests I have an interesting find. I sandwiched an overhead transparency film sheet between two full sized avery label sheets. The cards didn't seem quite as stiff as real cards (Bee brand for comparison) but dang close.

The interesting thing came upon my bend test. I bent one of each multiple times almost in half, holding thme in the same hand so they both got the exact same "squishyness" in the bend and the same number of bends. I then placed both cards down onto the table. Both cards started out with the exact same arch in the middle - sam distance off the table. But my crafted card return to almost flat within 5-10 seconds while the Bee card remained much more arched. After letting them sit for a couple minutes the end result was the the Bee card was still bent about double the distance off the table as my crafted card.

Looks like I may have to whip up a larger test batch to see how well they hold up under use and shuffling. Still, an interesting find.

Back to the lab...

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Nick

NetWolf
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Various Card Stock Sources (wanted)

If you are going to do that, why not print one side of the card directly on to the overhead sheet and then use the label sheet only for one side?

nickdanger
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Quote:
If you are going to do that, why not print one side of the card directly on to the overhead sheet and then use the label sheet only for one side?

A couple thoughts come to mind.

I'm not sure of the permanency of printing on that type of media. But mainly, it's already not quite as stiff as a normal card so I wouldn't want to eliminate one of the layers With the three layers it's just about the same thickness as a standard card.

I might be heading to the office supply store to see about finding a filler material with just a tad more stiffness to it. I really do like the springy nature of the oead sheet though. It gives the card a neat memory type quality that springs it back to flat rather nicely.

The one problem I see is that is can be tricky lining up the label sheet and applying it to the overhead without getting air bubbles or mis-alignment. But I'll tackle that problem once I find the proper "recipe".

--
Nick

VeritasGames
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Like I said, if you have a laser printer that can handle it, you should be using a 12 point or 14 point C2S stock. Much cheaper. Much less work.

nickdanger
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Various Card Stock Sources (wanted)

Quote:
Like I said, if you have a laser printer that can handle it, you should be using a 12 point or 14 point C2S stock. Much cheaper. Much less work.

Well, I don't have a laser printer, nor easy access to one.

Plus, I'm finding it kind of fun to experiment with different material combinations trying to create a pseudo cardstock.

That's not to say I don't appreaciate your advice, and truth is if I had a color laser printer I'd probably be following it.

--
Nick

VeritasGames
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For quick inkjet prototyping my favorite solution it to use microperforated card stock. We just bought 2700 sheets for playtesting of our current game. Chances are you won't need that much. A lot of microperforated stock is light card stock (65 pound stock) that you'll need to put in a card sleeve and maybe back with another card.

Plaincards are the best commercially available product I have found for the price, but I haven't tried the prototyping supplies from the Protoparts store. You get more cards per page with Plaincards, but Plaincards are very slightly narrower than poker-sized playing cards.

If you are into experimenting, though, have fun.

nickdanger
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Various Card Stock Sources (wanted)

Quote:
Plaincards are the best commercially available product I have found for the price

I have used Plaincards for prototyping in the past and they are quite nice for that purpose. I'm looking for better than protoype quality now, but in a fairly small quantity. As such, I know it's going to have to be a DIY thing for me.

Plaincards is my fall back if I can't come up with something better, but I'm fairly confident I'll be able to at least do better than them quality-wise and hopefully at an equivalent or lower price.

Of course I have been wrong before.

--
Nick

VeritasGames
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If you are looking for a high grade prototype quality, order samples of 12 and 14 point C2S and go to a local copy shop and get them to test run the stock through their printers.

Pasting Avery labels on transparencies isn't going to give you a much better look and feel than Plaincards -- it will still look very homebrew.

I have other suggestions for you, but I'd need to know how many copies of each unique card you'll have an how many total unique faces.

nickdanger
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Various Card Stock Sources (wanted)

Quote:
I have other suggestions for you, but I'd need to know how many copies of each unique card you'll have an how many total unique faces.

I'm open to any suggestions, that's for sure.

Here's the breakdown:

Copies / Unique Faces

1 / 4
2 / 5
3 / 2
4 / 4
5 / 4
6 / 1
7 / 1
11 / 1

For a total of 80 cards w/ 22 uniques.

--
Nick

VeritasGames
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In what multiples are you willing to make these? 1 deck? 100 decks?

nickdanger
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I'm thinking about 30 decks.

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Nick

VeritasGames
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OK, Nick. To get the costs down you may have to be flexible on the number of copies of various cards you want.

You've clearly got a fairly laborious method to produce decks. You also know about Plaincards. But you seem to want something better.

The next step up from there is using a postcard printer and some kind of finishing service. Go to our company website in the Game Design section and read the article entitled "Small Card Game Print Runs". If you want a step up from Plaincards, but you want less than 100 decks, that's your only real option.

A lot of the postcard printers use a technology called "digital offset" printing, which uses traditional ink printing on the paper, but the setup of which is handled digitally instead of manually.

It's not realistic to do a standard offset print run for 30 decks, and its expensive to get Kinkos to run cards for you and they only carry flimsy stock. Postcard printers tend to print on 12 point C2S (OK) or 14 point C2S (great).

Look for online sales at some of these places to save some money.

CodeFalcoN
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Various Card Stock Sources (wanted)

Protoparts is, I'd wager, just about 110#. I've burned through about 50 sheets of it and it works great, but my laser printer sometimes will sheer the edges a bit on certain cards, forcing me to re-print. I've since taken up buying Hammermill 110# white and printing them on a template similar to the margains on the Protoparts sheets. Then I use a $30 rotary trimmer and a $5 corner rounder and get just about the same result w/o the problems w/ the preforated edges. It's a heck of a lot more work, but I actually enjoy it =)

VeritasGames
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14 point C2S with UV coating is sturdy. Some games go into distribution with lower quality than that. It's a lot sturdier than 110# card stock. It really depends on:

a) the quality you want
b) the amount of work you are willing to put into it yourself
c) the amount you are willing to pay for the thirty decks

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