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Game #3: 8/7c by sedjtroll

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jwarrend
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prototype quality

As far as prototype quality, I generally sit somewhere in the middle; I design all my cards and boards on the computer, and usually scavenge components (dice, cubes, pawns, scoring tracks, money, etc) from other games I own. I find that this is actually less work for me, and makes changing the game systematically much easier. I also have horrible handwriting and poor art skills and so for me, it's almost not an option!

That said, I think it's time well-spent to make a high quality proto. Getting professional artwork is obviously overkill, but thinking carefully about the layout and presentation of information on your cards will make players able to understand the game better, and have more fun playing it. I generally try to get clip art from the web to enhance my designs. In a game I'll probably show next in the GDW, which is an archaeology game, I found some pictures of artifacts to put on my "artifact cards". This took a ton of time, however, the players in the one session I had really liked the visual presentation of the game, and that's a big part of the "hook" in getting people to enjoy the experience your game presents.

I don't think this necessarily needs to be done via computer; I played a hand-drawn prototype that was perfectly functional and worked well, but also looked nice. Yet, this guy wasn't Monet or something; the art was decent, but not great. What's most important is the functionality.

So, I think that writing stuff down on index cards is perfectly fine practice for a prototype, but I think it's really worth spending some time trying to present the game in the best way possible. You're asking people to give up some of their time to try something new and unproven; putting forth your best effort shows that you respect that investment of time that they're making.

-Jeff

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Quality Prototypes

I totally agree. I didn't want to get too fancy with flaver text and whatnot because the cards and rules are constantly changing. I DID think it was important to get the layout of the cards though- I had a concept for that early.

You can probably see it in the pics- the information on the Programs are arranged in different corners (the main artwork in the game will be for the shows- right in the middle of the card. If I get my druthers, the border of the cards will look like old-school wooden Television boxes- the kind with the dials to change channels. Maybe with one broken off.)

The Programs will end up 3" x 4" while the rest of the cards are the same size as Magic cards (or some playing cards)- 2.5" x 3.5".

The ads have a border (blue highlighter right now) on the top and left edges. The Revenue in the corner and the ad categories (right now they're written out, but I imagine the final game will just have Ad Symbols) show when you slip the card behind the program (the border should protrude). The Ad Symbols line up with the Ad Symbols on the Programs for easy match checking.

Similarly, the Modifiers have a border (orange highlighter atm) along the bottom and right edges. The information that protrudes here is Additional Hit Numbers on the right (near where the hit numbers are on the Programs), and the Duration at the bottom (so you can easily access that info). For other info (like if you forget which modifier it is) I guess you have to just pick up the card or move it over to look. I don't see this being any different from Creature Enchantments in Magic, so I don't think it's a problem. Covering the cost (upper left corner) is ok because by the time it's in play that doesn't matter anymore.

Events with Durations have the Duration at the bottom, like Modifiers. and have costs in the upper left like Modifiers.

I think the information is well organized and I'm happy with how the presentation works at present. I'm getting an artist friend involved to start getting some artwork together. I also know a cartoonist and I plan to talk to him about the whole "make a picture then reduce it and print it small" process. In a perfect world I'll have my TV border with the artwork on the screen, 100% in the center, and gradually screened to maybe 50% at the edges so you can read the Symbols and Genres and Hit Numbers easily.

As for Hit Numbers, one thought was to have them on the dial (like channels)... either all 11 numbers there with only the 'active' ones highlighted, or something like that. trying to make it easy to swallow the Hit# mechanism.

sedjtroll
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Need to figure out Movement mechanic !

I have been discussing with my friends how to handle moving programs in 8/7 Central, and we have not come up with anything I really like.

Does anyone have a suggestion of how it should go? I'd like the rule to be intuitive and not very complex if possile. It needs to allow for moving programs. It needs to account for moving programs to a time slot where there already is a program. And finally, it has to avoid the stalemate of 2 people just moving their shows back and forth in response to the other guy's move.

Considerations:
Should it cost money (just a little) to move a program?
Moving a Program means losing a Ratings Counter- I like that.
Should Ads "fall off" a program when it moves?
Should there be 2 'classes' of movement? (these could be "move" and "bump," where a Bump is similar a Move but not as good. For example, the original rule was you could Move 1 program a week, and that move could create a Bump- which is just like a Move only it cannot further Bump.)

Thanks for the input.

- Seth

Scurra
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Game #3: 8/7c by sedjtroll

FastLearner wrote:

*Begins to wonder if he isn't posting as Scurra in his sleep.*

Well that might explain the long chat session on auction mechanics, if you (or indeed I) were talking to yourself ;) *

As for cards - can I strongly recommend that you try and keep the cards to the same size for everything. I realise that it helps to have the two different types differentiated by size, but it probably isn't worth the hassle in the long run, both for manufacturing and packaging reasons (which, of course, is always assuming that it would ever get that far!)
I seem to design a lot of card games, and have found that different card backs (or sleeves, in the case of prototypes!) are more than enough. It sometimes makes the card design itself tricky, trying to fit all the required information onto them, but that's an aesthetic issue not a game issue.

* btw, I had one of those dreams last night, during which somebody showed me how to play a game and I woke up with the rules and everything pretty well complete. Of course, I have no idea if the game is worth pursuing, but it's got to be worth a shot...

phpbbadmin
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moving shows...

Seth,

Perhaps you could make different types of advertisements..

I.E. Advertisements that stick to a show, or stick to a time slot, or one that could do both, or one that could do neither...

I.E. Say you had a show called "Bowling For Dollars" at 8 PM. And you had the Edsel Automobile company as an advertiser during that slot. Possibly, Edsel might only want to advertise for that show (sticky : show). Or Edsel might want to advertise for "Bowling for Dollars" only if it airs at the 8 PM time slot (sticky: show & slot). Or Edsel might lnow that 8 PM has the largest number of viewers, so they might advertise for any show as long as it is in the 8 PM slot (sticky: slot). The final option is that Edsel wants to advertise A LOT, in which case, they wouldn't care what show or slot but are more interested in quanity. In that case they could be classified as a non sticky advertiser. You could balance this out by making the ads who are sticky/stickier (LOL) pay more because they are more selective and are therefore willing to pay more. For example (and just an example as I don't know your money quantifiers), A sticky show & slot ad might rake in 3 million, a sticky show or sticky slot ad by itself might rake in 2 million, while a non sticky ad would only rake in 1 million.

And yes I agree it should definitely cost both money and rating counter(s) to move a show.

Hope I helped.
-Darke

FastLearner
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Game #3: 8/7c by sedjtroll

My suggestion (Seth and I have IMed about the game a bit) was that moving a show temporarily disables it -- that it becomes inactive in terms of possible hits and competing for genres for a week. Physically this would involve turning it upside down (or something) in its new slot until that day had passed. This both felt like it would mimic the real world (no viewers to speak of in its first week in the new time slot) and that it would be a good amount of deterrent for moving programs around much.

The problem with this, though, is apparently there are only like 3 weeks in the game (I didn't understand that before) so it's too much punishment/deterrent.

sedjtroll
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Game #3: 8/7c by sedjtroll

FastLearner wrote:
... and that it would be a good amount of deterrent for moving programs around much.

The problem with this, though, is apparently there are only like 3 weeks in the game (I didn't understand that before) so it's too much punishment/deterrent.

Quite right- the game isn't long enough for that to be attractive. Also, I'm not sure I want a deterrantfor moving programs... People should want to move programs and they should be able to fairly easily. What I want to deter is moving back and forth- there needs to be some kind of limit. That's why a small money cost seems to be the most attractive to me. However, while I may have a core mechanic (it will cost money and shows will lose a ratings counter when they move)... I still don't have Rules I'm happy with.

When can players move programs? How often? What are the restrictions? What happens when you want to place or move a program into a slot where there's already a program?

- Seth

Scurra
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Game #3: 8/7c by sedjtroll

How about a combined system? Say that one ratings counter = $2. (I know it probably doesn't, but I don't know the game enough to be able to do the maths properly.) Then the cost of moving the show might cost a total of 6 "points", where 1 point = $1 = 0.5 ratings counter. A player could then pay $6 to move it without losing any ratings, or pay 3 counters to move it without paying any money (or some combination of the two.) This might reflect the company spending extra on advertising the "new" timeslot, or simply hoping that the audience will come back...

As for moving a show into a slot that already has a show - well, that seems like tough luck on the old show. I would imagine that the player would have to move it or lose it.

sedjtroll
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Game #3: 8/7c by sedjtroll

Scurra wrote:
How about a combined system?

The problem with allowing people to actually spend ratings counters to move programs is that people will start moving shows left and right just to avoid jumping the shark. The purpose of moving shows is supposed to be to compete with other shows.

Scurra wrote:
As for moving a show into a slot that already has a show - well, that seems like tough luck on the old show. I would imagine that the player would have to move it or lose it.

Right, so do you mean they have to pay to move that show also, or else discard it? This might be the way to go. Probably better then the "bump" idea I was using before, which allowed for extra moving in an unclear way.

Thanks for the suggestions... keep them coming! :)

- Seth

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Game #3: 8/7c by sedjtroll

sedjtroll wrote:
The problem with allowing people to actually spend ratings counters to move programs is that people will start moving shows left and right just to avoid jumping the shark. The purpose of moving shows is supposed to be to compete with other shows.

I think only stupid players would do this. If they don't move them to where they'll get good ratings then they'll lose the game.

Remember that losing the game is a harsh deterrent.

And on deterrents: of course I was referring to people over-moving. That you are in fact trying to deter. Hence "deterrent". If you don't want someone to do something at all then you just make it against the rules, obviously.

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FastLearner wrote:

And on deterrents: of course I was referring to people over-moving. That you are in fact trying to deter. Hence "deterrent". If you don't want someone to do something at all then you just make it against the rules, obviously.

You bring up a very good point. I'll blame it on the Hydrocodone that I missed it :)
- Seth

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FastLearner wrote:
I think only stupid players would do this. If they don't move them to where they'll get good ratings then they'll lose the game.

That's essentially what I was trying to get at. If the player is willing to "pay" ratings counters to move the show to a spot where it will get more, then that should be their choice. If they pay a lot to move it, then you should let them do that too.
But in both cases, if you try moving a show too often, you will lose very quickly! (I realise that I may have underpriced the action, but as I said, it's hard to judge cashflow when I haven't played the game.) And although I understand why you are opposed to spending ratings counters, the programme has to get them back later and there's no guarantee of that.

And yes, I was assuming that if the player didn't pay to move the show that was being replaced, then it would be lost.

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Product Placement in 8/7 Central

I have been thinking about adding even more information to the Programs... In order to reduce "mana screw" and as another way to balance out Programs I thought I'd add an inherant revenue- like a built in ad for each show. That revenue might be zero on some shows, but would be $1 or $2 for most shows.

This may go hand in hand with the next question- should the 1-hr shows be (a) all the highests pipped shows (most popular), (b) the lowest pipped shows (least popular), or (c) mixed in everywhere?

Thus far it's been pretty much mixed in, but I wonder if I should change that.

These, in addition to the Movement issues we've already talked about, are some of the things that will polish off this game.

- Seth

jwarrend
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Re: Need to figure out Movement mechanic !

sedjtroll wrote:

Considerations:
Should it cost money (just a little) to move a program?

No. It should cost X ratings counters to move a program, then that is that. There you go. Nice, simple, intuitive.

You mentioned below that this raises a problem with respect to the "jumping the shark" mechanic. That just continues to suggest to me that jumping the shark is a superfluous mechanic. There should always be a check in your mind, such that when you decide to make Mechanic A complicated and counter-intuitive just to preserve Mechanic B, there is almost certainly a flaw in Mechanic B. I understand that you want to have some "direct attack" method, however, I think there are other ways of doing this than "jumping the shark". It doesn't work at all from a theme standpoint; do other network execs, in real life, pick a show from a rival network that they think should jump the shark? I understand you're not going for simulation. My point is more that you've articulated other ways of challenging successful shows, either by competing in a different genre, stealing advertising dollars via action cards, etc. My advice would be to beef up the ability of the action cards to allow more interactivity between players, if that's what you want. But jumping the shark doesn't seem to be a good mechanic to me. I really think you should just have the cost of changing a time slot to be ratings counters, and nothing else. That alone should be penalty enough, since it will lose them advertising dollars anyway.

Quote:

Moving a Program means losing a Ratings Counter- I like that.

Yup.

Quote:

Should Ads "fall off" a program when it moves?

Maybe ok.

Quote:

Should there be 2 'classes' of movement? (these could be "move" and "bump," where a Bump is similar a Move but not as good. For example, the original rule was you could Move 1 program a week, and that move could create a Bump- which is just like a Move only it cannot further Bump.)

Absolutely not. This adds more complexity, and that's the last thing you need at this point.

BTW, have you updated the rulebook at all during this? I haven't looked at it in a few days, so please let me know if there have been any changes (other than the links to the photos, which I think I commented on already...)

-Jeff

Thanks for the input.

- Seth

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Game #3: 8/7c by sedjtroll

A more accurate Jumping the Shark system would involve the number of ratings counters. If a show has over x ratings counters then there's a chance it will jump the shark (which you could roll for at EoW or whenever). If it does then it loses ratings counters (say half rounded up). If you wanted to you could also say that it can never gain new ratings counters (maybe put a little shark marker on it). This neatly simulates how it works, plus if the player started moving his now-loser then he'd lose even more ratings counters, making it an even worse show to keep around, again like real life.

Note that the "x" above could also be relative, along the lines of "total strength in a given genre over x" so that it's not a flat nubmer of ratings counters. This has the advantage of eventually killing "unbeatable" shows, much like the real world.

I think you already have sufficient indirect attacks, when users put better shows up against others'.

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Thanks for the input!

Everyone's suggestions have been very useful. I think what I'll do is combine the rule for moving with the rule for placing. Something like this:

Placing/Moving: After the Supplemental Auction at the beginning of each week players take turns placing or moving programs or passing until all players pass in succession. When it is your turn you may place a Program in an open slot for free. If you ever want to vacate a spot in order to place a Program in it's place (pick up the program in that slot, it will be placed again), you may do so at the cost of $1. Any program moved in this way loses 1 Ratings Counter. All Ad cards on that program are discarded. If you have a Program to place, you may not pass.

Now the only thing I have to decide on is the turn order. Right now I am leaning toward "Each player in turn takes 2 actions, then at the end of the day the dice are rolled twice, Revenue collected, Scoring done, Durations checked, and the next day begins."

Any suggestions on that?

- Seth

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Re: Jumping the Shark and moving to lose Ratings Counters

For starters, I am thinking on using a different turn structure that will have only 2 Die rolls per day, even with three or 4 players (rather than 1 per turn)... this should help control the amount of money in the game, and also keep ratings counters under control.

Moving a Program to protect it from jumping is reasonable. What I was really worried about was two people reactivly moving programs back and forth. I'd like to avoid that while still allowing moves. So the nominal cost of $1 sounds good- it can represent some of the cost of running the network, and it means you can't infinitely move (you'll run out of money).

And if you need to move a program, you better save a buck to do it!

- Seth

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Passing on the Conch

Thank you all again for your input, it was all very welcome. 8/7c was pretty far along when I put it up, and I was pretty set in a lot of what I wanted, but I still feel the Workshop has been worthwhile for me and for this game.

I now pass the conch on to Jeff, who has been doing a fine job of organizing this thread as well as commenting on each entry. Keep up the good criticism.

- Seth

Now, where's that Archeology game? If I had to guess(or if I had to make an Archeology game myself) I'd say it's probably a tile-laying game to give the feeling of uncovering something as the game progresses, much like an Archeologist uncovers something as he does his work.

jwarrend
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Game #3: 8/7c by sedjtroll

We're experiencing some technical difficulties with the Archaeology Game; I don't have a website, and for some reason, the ability to attach a file to a message has disappeared from the editor. My hope is that Darkehorse or FastLearner or hpox can tell me how I can upload my file to somewhere on the website, and then we can get on with the game!

Actually, Seth, it's not a tile-laying game; it explores archaeology from the perspective of the museum curator, not the archaeologist. You'll see! Hope you guys like it, and have lots of feedback. But, stay tuned, I hope it will be soon that we figure out how to post it to the board.

-Jeff

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Technical problems

I still can't find the upload feature..

Just e-mail me the game and I'll upload it manually.

-Darke

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Variant idea for when to roll dice...

An idea I just had...
What about 1 roll at the end of each day, then an extra roll at the end of each week which counts for all shows... this gives each show 2 rolls per week, but seperates out the income.

On the one hand it seems a little fiddly perhaps, and it gives people less money during the week. On the other it seems less arbitrary than 2 rolls per day, and it gives people a big income (1/2 the weeks income) right before the supplemental auction.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

- Seth

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Some decisions have been made...

For better or for worse, the current rules for turn order are as follows:

Each player in turn takes 2 actions. When every player has had a turn for the day, the day ends and day-end things happen. The first day-end thing is that 4 dice are rolled (2 sets, or one set twice). I kinda like the one-roll of 2 sets of dice because it masks the arbitraryness of 2 rolls per day :)

Then, revenue is collected (I'm now thinking that you get money from ads as described before, but if you have no ad on a show your revenue is $1), Scoring is done, and durations are checked.

An idea I just thought of- what do you guys think of this modification to the bidding system? Rather than bidding on shows, players bid on the right to choose first from the available shows. This could either mean "high bid chooses first, then other players in turn order" in which case everyone always gets a new show... or maybe there's a bid for each show (I don't like that idea).

The questions to answer here are what kind of bidding? Is it bidding in rounds until everyone passes? is it 1 round of blind bidding, with the 1st player (which would rotate for each set of shows) in the rotation being the tie-breaker (i.e. 2 people bid 4 and 1 bids 3... the first 4-bid left of player 1 goes first (everyone surrenders their bid))

This might be more equitable, so that a lot of money doesn't mean you run away with all the programs.

- Seth

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Game #3: 8/7c by sedjtroll

Re: Bidding
The solution I used for a game in which I wanted player order determined by one auction was to use Player Order Cards.
Basically the bidding was continuous, but when you passed you paid your last bid and took the highest player order card remaining. The auction continued until everyone had passed.

e.g.
Alf bids 2, Bert bids 3, Carol bids 4 and Dave bids 5. Alf bids 6. Bert passes. He pays 3 (his last bid) and takes Player Order card 4. Carol bids 7. Dave passes, pays 5 (his last bid) and takes card 3. Alf bids 8. Carol bids 9. Alf passes. He pays 8 and takes card 2, and Carol pays 9 and takes card 1.
Carol now gets first "pick", Alf 2nd pick, Dave gets third pick and Bert gets the last pick.
This provides a relatively open system whilst making seating order still slightly important (since you can be screwed out of the bidding simply by the level reaching one you can't afford!) OTOH you can also get a bargain by dropping out of an auction and letting others overpay.

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Re: Some decisions have been made...

Bidding for choice order does reduce the "a rich player can choose multiple times" effect, however, it reduces the "we can make Joe pay dearly for the show we know he wants" effect as well. You have to decide which is more important. One auction followed by drafting in order certainly makes things quicker, but may have other effects you don't intend.

The two principle forms of bidding seem to fall down as being "simultaneous' and "sequential" (with many variants in each category). Simultaneous bids are nice because they don't have a turn order effect, however, they reward good guessing quite heavily; they do give the opportunity for bluffing, which is nice. Sequential bids are nice in that they don't result in ties, but they do leave players "out cold" if they are late in the bid order and have little to spend (although, arguably, those players were probably out of it anyway...). This is particularly a problem in a large game. your game is smaller, so it won't matter as much.

The one thing you want is to have everyone care about the outcome of every auction. You don't want to have a separate auction for each show, and half the players don't care about participating in any given auction. This is a drawback of Pizarro & Co, in my opinion; a good game, but by round 2, you don't care about a majority of the auctions (in that case, because you're not involved), and so there's lots of dead time.

See my game for my "solution" to the bidding problem. Bidding is "sequential", but also "simultaneous" in the sense that you don't know exactly what someone has bid until all have bid (although there is some info conveyed by the coins on the back of the card, meaning it isn't totally blind). You can lay out 6 bids, and the bids you lose give VP to players who win, so you care about where all of your bids are going, and each of your bids matters a lot, either to getting you what you want, or depriving someone else of what they want. The only effect that I don't think it captures is the "driving up the price" effect, which I regret not having a great solution for in my game...not sure if there's a simple change that can be made that will capture that.

Anyway, I think Scurra's suggestion is good, and your idea of "blind + once-around" sounds inspired, but probably wouldn't work better than just going to "once-around" from the outset (although it might play differently, I'm not sure...). But hopefully, I've given you a little to think about in terms of which methods will have what effects on your game, and to decide in the context of what you're trying to achieve -- how fast should bidding be? How much should players be agonizing over each auction? Answering these will help a lot in deciding which bid mechanic you want.

-Jeff

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Another test session

Well, it's been a while, but 2 friends and I played a game of 8/7 Central tonight. One guy has played a couple times before, and saw the beginnings of the process. The other's never seen it before.

Overall pretty successful I think. Still took about 2 hours, but now that includes the teaching. I really think a group that knows the game can play a game in an hour and a half or less. I'd really like to test that theory by playing with the same group several times in several sessions.

I can see little things to tweak as I make the revised set of cards... combinations of (and number of) ad categories that shouldn't be on High Pip ("popular") shows... certain cards that either need errata or should be cut (like Steal Program- it causes problems with placing rules, and could be deemed unfair anyway- and Advertising Strategy- removing an ad slot when 1/2 hr shows only have 1 ad slot seems too unfair. Maybe it shoudl read "Add Hit#7 and remove and Ad Slot from a 1-Hr Program, OR add an Ad Slot and remove Hit#s 6, 7, and 8 from a 1/2-Hr Program"... except that only 1-Hr programs will have Hit#7 to begin with)

At any rate, I decided to try a particular strategy this game- I bid on shows with a mind for scoring points rather than making money, to see how it would go. I got 2 high pip shows and the rest were mediocre as far as hit#s were concerned. I concentrated on the Drama demographic and got almost no Comedy (and I hoped to draw cards like Drama Fever and Get Serious which benefit having a lot of Dramas.). As a result my linup did not hit very often... I only got 2 hits in each of the first 2 weeks (I did a little better week 3). Remember that a 3-player game lasts only 3 weeks (if you want to finish in 1.5 hrs). Another guy bid on a lot of high pip shows, and as a result got many hits and happened to start the game with 4 Ads in hand... he quickly got a lot of money. He also Blew one of my shows out of the water, and I could not afford to replace it at the end of week one or week 2. However, since my shows were better at scoring to begin with, I was able to stay in the game.

The final score was New Guy: 22, Me: 21, Guy who got all that money: 20. A very clsoe game, and it goes to show you that there can be at least 2 solid strategies- going for better scorers to begin with (then combatting other people's ads), or going for moneymakers and using more cards more effectively than the other players. There are also sub-strategies developing (I think), as players can concentrate on Comedy, Drama, News, or try and balance out their lineup.

For the record, the rules we used were...
Turn order: Each player takes 2 actions, then at day end 2 die rolls are made, then scoring , then Durations are checked. After Friday day end stuff the week end stuff happens- Jump the Shark, Pass the 'Player 1' title, Supplemental Auction...

Movement: see my most recent posts on Moving and placing programs. That seemed to work well.

Note: I might still like to try changing the Jump the Shark to mean that any show with 4 or more counters on it at the end of the week loses all it's counters- period. Not as fun as rolling for it, but might do what I want it to with respect to ratings counters.

Whew... anyone follow all that? I guess it's time to update the webpage again...

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Re: Another test session

OK, web page has been updated. Click the link, take a look, and tell me what I missed... I am going to add the scoring example (from this thread) next.

Thanks a lot,
Seth

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Game #3: 8/7c by sedjtroll

Niggle observations:

There is no indication of maximum/minimum number of players (see comment below)

"Deal out 5 cards from the Play deck face down to each player (players may look at your cards at this time). "
I think this should be "(players may look at their cards at this time.)"

I assume the maximum number of players is four, since otherwise there's going to be a problem with the "edge closest to them" device.

Minor Typo: "Play then continues on Monday with the new PLayer 1 starting their turn."

Everything else looks pretty clear now. I might quibble with the order you have presented things in, but that's not serious.

Oh, and I think you'll need to find a solution to the "double-sized" cards if you want to do a production run of this, since they are highly impractical.

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Game #3: 8/7c by sedjtroll

Scurra wrote:

There is no indication of maximum/minimum number of players

Oops. Right. It's really for 2-4 players, but in theory should be able to support more. The current set of cards (25 Programs) only supports 3 players at a time.

Quote:
I assume the maximum number of players is four, since otherwise there's going to be a problem with the "edge closest to them" device.

I describe that mechanic as an example, it's really up to the players to keep track of their money. But by Edge it doesn't necessarily mean the whol side of the card. It could be a corner or whatever. Maybe I'll re-phrase.

Quote:
I might quibble with the order you have presented things in, but that's not serious.

May not be serious, but that's exactly the kind of feedback I'm lokoing for! Any help in that regard would be appreciated- what format/order do you think would help?

Quote:
Oh, and I think you'll need to find a solution to the "double-sized" cards if you want to do a production run of this, since they are highly impractical.

There aren't double sized cards. The Program Cards are supposed to be a little bigger than the others, which I understand may be impractical- which perhaps means I'll have to use the same size cards throughout... I can put a different backing on the Programs to differentiate them. But really, once you're printing something different on the card back, dos it matter if the cards are a different size?

Thanks for the input!

- Seth

hpox
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Game #3: 8/7c by sedjtroll

Ok. Just finished reading & highlighting your new rules.

I found it pretty clear and comprehensible. I found a few points you could work on to make it more "user-friendly". Understand that this is mostly really small details stuff and fine-tuning. (This is what you asked about right?)

Although the introduction is clear and describe nicely how the game is made. I think a good quick first person introduction is missing. Who are the players? (Which role are they playing) (What do they need to do to win) (How will they do it). The way it is explained right now is components-centric or object-oriented (I bet your field of work involve computer science) :D. I don't mind it much but it is a bit complex for an introduction. You don't want to scare the players.

I like the sentence :

Quote:
As Programs gain a following, they become more valuable, but watch out! When A Program gets too popular it runs the risk of Jumping the Shark!

But I would slightly change it to "As your programs gain ...". If you go with the first person introduction thing.

Speaking of object-oriented... The properties of each cards really feel like reading a class in C++. I guess you thought about it already but having a picture of one card with line pointing to the different properties would greatly enhance the ease of reading. Also, I don't think it's necessary to tell that this is the title or name of the card.

The descriptions are usually clear but you mention some mechanics in the advertisement and event cards. Not sure if it would be best to have them or not. Either way, go all out and talk about mechanic for the other cards too or forget the mechanics completely for now.

And now for this "Millions" stuff. I'm glad it stopped after the second page because it was driving me nuts. Go for 30M or $30 and mention it only once somewhere how the chips are in millions. I don't think it's important to the game. See: Age of Steam. They don't even bother with the money and I doubt building a track cost 2 bucks in real-life. I don't think it detract from the game that the money is abstract.

Now for the real meat, the actual rules. I found the setup, starting lineup and bidding pretty clear. Two things:

In the setup when it says "Determine via some random method who will begin as Player 1". You have a great opportunity to invent an easy minigame to see who start. Let's say draw a program card and the first person to name 3 real-life show of that genre gets to be the first player. Or maybe the first player is the last person to have seen a show of that genre. IMHO "via some random method" sounded lame.

Secondly, usually in a bidding game when you pass you drop. This is clearly not the case here and I think it should be quickly noted. The example does clearly state it though.

Once the bidding is finished (how long does it take? 10, 15 minutes?) You never have to do it again for the rest of the game. It should be stated.

...
Oops. It's getting late. I'll post the rest back tomorrow.

My 2 cents for now.[/url]

sedjtroll
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Joined: 07/21/2008
Game #3: 8/7c by sedjtroll

Thanks again for the comments. As for the "Millions," I agree- it sounded terrible as I tried to stick that in there. I wanted to try and give the game more flavor. I'll go back to just $ Chips (which are unspecified as to their value, maybe I'll mention somewhere at the beginning that $ chips represent a million bucks).

As for pics, I agree again. I want to incorporate that. I was hoping my new friend Fastlearner would give me a hand incorporating the card pics or diagrams into the rules because I have no idea how, really. Plus, I'm not good at making the diagram, although I know what I want the cards to look like (see photos).

I look forward to any more comments. I will be re-writing again, probably with a first person perspective like you mentioned. Maybe I'll go read some published rulebooks first to get a feel of how they should sound. Anyone know offhand of a game with a quality rules set (presentation-wise)? As I recall, Richard Garfield's "Filthy Rich" game had a great rules set.

- Seth

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