Skip to Content

Arena Shooter Game: 'Aim' as a value, what counters it?

17 replies [Last post]
ArkhamArkhiver
ArkhamArkhiver's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/08/2018

My game is about gun-play and fire-fights. I was intending on each player beginning the game with a weapon of their choice in play, with other optional weapons in their deck (in case their weapon gets broken or stolen or something.)

Each weapon would have several stats, one of which was Accuracy (ACC for short.) Accuracy determines the Aim value you need to fall within to successfully hit your opponent. Other cards increase you Aim, either transiently, passively, or permanently.

I'm wondering what stat should counter Aim? Using the flavor and theme and logic, I was thinking something like Speed (it's hard to hit a moving target). That would be a stat associated with the player's Persona / Identity they choose to play as.

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
According to your logic...

It would seem to me to be "DEXTERITY" (DEX). The better the aim, the higher your DEXTERITY is needed to avoid being HIT...

All sounds logical to me.

OR if you want something a bit "different"... "REFLEXES" (REF). Same as two peas in a pot if you ask me...

Cheers!

Tim Edwards
Tim Edwards's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/30/2015
Or just "dodge" so keep it

Or just "dodge" so keep it self-explanatory?

let-off studios
let-off studios's picture
Offline
Joined: 02/07/2011
What are -you- Aiming For?

Tim Edwards wrote:
Or just "dodge" so keep it self-explanatory?
Yeah, I'd stick with this unless - as in the case of "dexterity" - you can use the same statistic for multiple purposes.

If you went with a multi-applicable stat such as "dexterity" then you could compare the skills between the attacker and their target. This opposing skill check would add a penalty or bonus to the attacker's to-hit chance.

Opposed skill checks such as this could be a unifying, core mechanic between players throughout the game: initiative, health, luck, technology, traps, vehicle use/piloting, etc. The general idea is that you compare the active player versus their specific target (an opponent or static object) and based on the comparison there's a bonus or penalty to success.

wob
Offline
Joined: 06/09/2017
hi. sorry i have joined the

hi.
sorry i have joined the thread late... does your game take distance into account (like a warhammer) or is it just card battles.
if it is the former i would say distance is the opposite of accuracy. the further away you are the harder you are to hit. dexterity would work fine i suppose but you need to be hella dexterous to dodge a bullet.

john smith
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2017
Cover Distance Movement Suppr

Cover
Distance
Movement
Suppression in some wargame.

Most games I make or play use those. Keeps it simple IMO. Harder to hit moving target. Distance makes a smaller target and cover also makes smaller target as parts of the target are behind whatever the cover is. Suppression is the idea that being under fire makes all activities more difficult as you are crouching and cringing from the incoming fire.

I understand the idea of keeping the defender or target player involved through saving throws or opposed rolls, but I always found those mechanisms conceptually equivalent to dodging bullets. Simultaneous combat works good. But no doubt you'll get the ole "complexity and time" stuff that gets thrown at almost everything. The idea behind simultaneous combat is in actuality simple. All effects of fire are applied after the combat round or turn. Example:

3 shooters A,B and C. A is shooting at B but B is shooting at C at A. If you resolve the shot on B first and B is killed then B does not get his shot on C UNLESS you apply all effects from combat after they are resolved. Many will say this requires markers, but it doesn't necessarily need to if the order of resolution is done properly.

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
What do I know

In my game, I use several ways to counter aim/accuracy.

- Dodge/Durability
Which is an extra roll. For me it is the same stat, but depending on the type of unit. Maybe you can even use both at the same time. Wait, I could do both!!

- Speed/Range
I let players test the speed of the target and the distance. The lowest number is a number of penalty rolls of 5/6th. A target that doesn't move, or a melee weapon, both don't have this penalty.

- Instant/Slow projectiles
This can adjust the penalty by Speed/Range by a factor.

- Camouflage/Stealth/Cloaked etc.
Surprised that no one thought of this one.

john smith
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2017
X3M wrote:-

X3M wrote:
- Camouflage/Stealth/Cloaked etc.
Surprised that no one thought of this one.

These three to me would be examples units or people being unable to be fired upon by attackers as you cannot shoot at what you cannot see.

I superpose in sci fi there may be countermeasures to these things, if that were the case I would list them under the category of cover if they have some, but not full effect. Like the movie Predator Where the cloak could be detected if you look real long and hard at it. Or in Star Trek where a Tachyon detection grid can negate Cloaks.

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
john smith wrote:X3M wrote:-

john smith wrote:
X3M wrote:
- Camouflage/Stealth/Cloaked etc.
Surprised that no one thought of this one.

These three to me would be examples units or people being unable to be fired upon by attackers as you cannot shoot at what you cannot see.

I superpose in sci fi there may be countermeasures to these things, if that were the case I would list them under the category of cover if they have some, but not full effect. Like the movie Predator Where the cloak could be detected if you look real long and hard at it. Or in Star Trek where a Tachyon detection grid can negate Cloaks.


A "chance" to detect.
Yeah, maybe it is a bit to far fetched.

I got the "we will fire in that region anyway with our high explosive napalm artillery and see what we will hit" argument going for my game. Where inaccurate long distance detection is going on for any thing.

Not really the same thing going on for the ?Western? theme?

john smith
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2017
Requires honest players but

Requires honest players but it can work. Indicating the area where you are shooting and the effect of die roll, the opposing player has to reveal if a target was there and apply that effect. IN Historical Wargaming I am familiar with, it is split into Direct Fire or Indirect fire. Direct fire being Rifles, machine guns, or cannons fired by a sight. Indirect being mortars, heavy artillery or bombs.

Direct fire into a location where no target is seen but suspected to be usually produces suppression on the target if its there. This is to simulate the idea of inaccurate but close fire. Bullets whizzing by your head for example, that will make men duck.

Indirect artillery and Bombing like napalm, will affect the entire area and cause destruction of the target. IRL, Artillery strikes are often planed on places the enemy is suspect to be even if not known to be there by Intel or Recon searching.

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
.

I am luckily not suffering from the "honest players needed" syndrome in my game. There is a fixed value, known to even tertiary players. Or even, before the unit walks the board.

Perhaps a need for knowing the chance. But I believe there is no fog of war in this topics game. Then it could work.

However, if there is guessing to if there is any piece at all. The game layout should be completely different.

Hoping to see a response from ArkhamArkhiver.

***

Another aim modifier could be cover indeed. Seeing as how cover can work. Some cover might still let high calibre bullets through. But simply reducing the damage by chance or fixed value.

peterthull
peterthull's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/18/2018
other ideas...

bullet-proof vest/shield, smoke grenade, stun grenade (aka flash/bang), armored vehicle

john smith
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2017
Yeah, I dont see it as

Yeah, I dont see it as suffering. I think its just not necessary to have to design around a cheater. If cheating is that common. then this hobby's ideas of fun is odd.

As to cover: If the weapon can penetrate the cover, then its not cover." One of "Murphy's law of combat.

Its matter of jargin I suppose but, cover means you are not totally exposed. Concealment means you are not seen. IE A sniper in a ghillie suit is concealed. A sniper with a bi-pod resting on a stone wall is in cover.

Though sci fi laser's and such might be different. Not even a .50 BMG can go through solid stones.

ArkhamArkhiver
ArkhamArkhiver's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/08/2018
Aim, Armor, Speed, Distance, Etc.

I'm still trying to work out the core mechanics in my head. The theme / setting is sci-fi future Earth, year 21XX or 22XX with genetically modified people, cybernetically augmented people, clones, androids, etc. Megacorps and hackers etc, etc. Classic cyberpunk, but not a dystopia or so dark and gritty. In this futuristic setting, the most popular sport is an extreme version of laser-tag using real guns and other weapons. The arena is a huge semi-virtual construct capable of being manipulated or changing via certain players or the referees.

You, the IRL player, is playing as a character (your chosen ID) who, within the setting, is a player in the arena.

-----

I imagine that when a player makes an attack (using their firearm of choice) they use that weapon's Accuracy rating to give them their base Aim value. Other cards on the table, either the Locations that form the 4x4 grid that players move around, Marksmanship cards that they play for a temporary boost, other Equipment or Assets will contribute or diminish that Aim value.

I wanted a stat to directly counter Aim, subtracting from it. I could have just had cards reduce the Aim value, but having a stat that acts as its opposite lets me have more game-terms and values to manipulate; a bit more complexity but added depth.

For Example:
Player A declares an attack on Player B, saying he is firing his weapon. He plays the Marksmanship card Draw-A-Bead, which grants him a +Aim bonus. Player B responds with the card Heavy Rain, which applies a -Aim penalty to all players for the round. Player A responds with the BioChemMed (i need a name/word for the skill that encompasses biological warfare, chemical warfare, medicine, etc.) card Melange-A-Trois (a potent chemical cocktail that improves focus, among other things) which grants him another +Aim bonus. Player B responds with the Athleticism card Sprint! which increases his Speed? or lets him Move? to a new range, thus applying a -Aim penalty to his attacker.

Having the value Aim lets me have +/- Aim effects. Having another value that is directly opposed to Aim lets me have additional +/- effects. Like, if the value was Speed for example, I could have a card like Gravity Well which afflicts the player in the area with a -speed penalty. This is mechanically similar to the other player getting a +Aim boost, but a different flavor, and allows for more card effects to manipulate stats and values.

I was thinking Speed, but I do want Distance to be a factor, and I'm not sure how to reconcile the two. Maybe each firearm has a range it is effective at, and anything beyond that just fails. Then players could play a card like Serpentine! that grants them +speed and moves their distance (either toward or away from their attacker.) Thinking of ranges: Close, Short, Medium, and Long, and a 5th range would be moving to a new Location (remember the 4x4 card layout that forms a map players move around.)

Of course, other cards will grant effects simulate cover, and temporarily disable your enemy from moving or attacking, and act as dodges to their attacks, and prevent and reduce their damage. Cards like Among Ruins, Get Down!, Meat Shield, Shell, Snare!, Grazed, I've Had Worse, Stasis Field, Defensive Stance, Stone Wall, Impromptu Barrier, etc.

X3M
X3M's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/28/2013
Shields can be

Shields can be attributes.
Also, if you use speed and range as modifiers. Both could modify with 1. But together 3.
Have a look at X-Com(2), maybe you can get some idea's from that as well. It is kinda the same theme and playfield if you think about it. Just larger and more options.
Some opponents there have something called evasive manouvers or lightning reflexes.

john smith
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2017
So this is cards or cards and

So this is cards or cards and Miniatures?

ArkhamArkhiver
ArkhamArkhiver's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/08/2018
Not Miniatures

It's all cards, but each player has a mini-player ID card that they use to move around the map. So Location cards form a 4x4 grid known as the map, and the player has their normal-sized player ID card and the mini-card. The mini-card serves as a miniature but with an important twist: you can hide the mini-card beneath a Location card, which represents stealth, and when you move using stealth, your opponents don't get to see which location you move to, as they will either 1) close their eyes; or 2) the stealth-user will pick up all Location cards he or she can legally move to, and then put them back as they were, with their mini-card concealed beneath. Having players close their eyes would be easiest, but feels kinda gimmicky.

john smith
Offline
Joined: 06/26/2017
what about a screen?
Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut