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Fantasy Combat Mechanic. Too simple, too complex, or just right?

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ThisIsMyBoomstick
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Being in the process of creating a Fantasy boardgame primarily featuring fights between heroes and various types of undead, I thought it would be good to get feedback on my current system of combat.

So far the only thing I have developed is Melee combat, though Ranged combat will follow a very similar path. The only thing that I'll really need to work on is Magic, but I don't imagine it being too terribly different.

To help, I'll supply a rough draft of my only finished character and one of my Undead creatures (further down)

Maverick Leonus
Warrior
Special Abilities:
-Flurry – Allows the Warrior to make two consecutive attacks
-Cleave – Allows the Warrior to hit all targets directly in front of him
-Protector – The Warrior may use his shield to negate an attack made on an adjacent Ally.
Weapon: Long Sword (3Ms+2)
Defensive Class: 5MR
Resistance: +2
Vitality: 5
Power: 3
Movement: 5
Carry-limit: 3

I will discuss most all of the abilities listed above, save for Resistance, which will factor in later once I develop the Magic mechanics, and Carry-limit, which is simply the amount of extra items that can be equipped at any given time on the character.

Each Weapon in the game will have a damage code. The Long Sword, for example, has a damage code of 3Ms+2.
The first number, the 3, represents the amount of six-sided dice that are rolled when attacking with the weapon.
The Ms represents the fact that the weapon is a Sharp Melee weapon. Finally, the +2 is the number added to each of the dice.

The Defensive Class has a very similar style, but Defensive Codes don't change nearly as often as Damage Codes.
The Warrior's Defensive Code is 5MR. Compared to most other man-sized creatures, the Warrior has a slightly better Defensive Code, both because this Warrior in particular is equipped with a shield and because he is tougher.
The 5 in the code is the 'Meet or Beat' number for the attacker. It is also the number of dice that the Defender will roll when warding off an attack (will explain further in the example at the bottom).

The M represents Melee attacks in general, whether they be blunt or sharp, and the R represents Ranged attacks. In a Defensive Code, the letters represent what a character or creature is Stronger against, unless the letters are red. If the letters are red, then they represent a weakness. When rolling defense, Strengths give all of your dice +1 if you are being attacked by that kind of weapon, but weaknesses take away an entire die. These effects are cumulative. Thus, if you are weak to both fire and blunt weapons, and you are attacked by a blunt weapon that deals fire damage, you lose two dice from your defense. You'll likely get hurt pretty bad.

Next up are Vitality and Toughness. Heroes have Vitality, whereas Undead have Toughness.
The Warrior has a Vitality of 5. This means that he can take five hits before he is incapacitated.

The Ghoul, however, has a Toughness 1.

Ghoul:
Special Abilities:
-Strength of the Horde – Movement and Defensive Class are increased by 1 for every other type
of Undead in play. This ability does not use Power.
-Angry Mob - If multiple Ghouls are going to attack one Hero, they may instead roll an amount of
dice equal to their mob size (number of Ghouls attacking the hero) without bonuses. The attack counts as Ms (Melee Sharp)
This ability does not use Power.
Weapon: Short-Sword (2Ms+1)
Defensive Class: 4Mb(red)
Resistance: 0
Toughness: 1
Power: 0
Movement: 3

Toughness is the amount of net hits that must be dealt to an Undead creature to kill it in one go. If multiple heroes attack one creature before the creature gets to make a hit, their total damages are cumulative, thus making it possible to team up on the much larger and tougher enemies.

The last things to discuss are Power and Movement.
Power is the amount of points each Hero or Undead will have to spend on Special Abilities per combat encounter. Depending on how balanced the Special Abilities are once I get around to playtesting, certain Special Abilities may use more Power than others.
Movement dictates both the amount of spaces that can be traversed on the board, and the character's initiative.

Thus, we begin our short example.

-Maverick and the Ghoul are already adjacent, so combat begins.
-Maverick's Movement is 5 compared to the Ghoul's 3, so he acts first. His Long Sword's damage code is 3Ms+2, so he rolls three dice. His results are 1, 3, and 3. With the +2 bonus, his total values are 3, 5, and 5.
-The Ghoul has Defensive Class of 4, thus only two of Maverick's rolls actually count as hits.
-The Ghoul now gets to roll his Defensive Class dice to try and further cancel out Maverick's two hits, and he must meet or beat the numbers. (Ties always go to the side rolling the dice) The Ghoul's rolls are 2, 2, 4, and 6.
-The Ghoul's 6 cancels one of Maverick's 5s, but the rest of the Ghoul's rolls do not reach Maverick's second 5, so the Ghoul takes 1 damage.
-Because this one point of damage is enough to drop the Ghoul's toughness to 0 for the current round, the Ghoul is killed and Maverick is victorious.

Please give me some honest feedback, and I do apologize for the lengthiness of the post.
Was it difficult to comprehend? Could it be toned back or improved upon? Do you think this could make for a fun combat mechanic? I am eager to hear your responses.

EDIT: I apologize for typos. I've gone through this giant wall of text twice now, and I still find tiny mistakes.

JustActCasual
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Undead DefClass Rolls

This looks pretty good: my only hesitation is in giving the Undead defensive rolls if they're NPC. It seems like this slows down the game unnecessarily since you could adjust Toughness or DefClass to get mostly the same effect faster. It makes sense to have the DefClass rolls for Heroes because they are special and it makes the players feel good, but with the Undead it seems like it will just rob players of joy over good hits (which might be fine depending on aesthetic). Having the Undead relying more on Toughness than DefClass also gives them a nicely different feel than heroes even if they are PCs.

PS. Strength of the Horde seems too strong: if you have 5 other types of undead out the ghouls are functionally invincible to swords, move super fast, and get initiative. It might be an idea to cap it at a certain point or change it up (say, DefClass and movement are each equal to the highest among undead on the field, so players can aim to take out their leader before mopping them up, and the numbers are at least doable).

ThisIsMyBoomstick
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Thanks!

I appreciate the feedback, and the idea behind taking away the DefClass rolls for the Undead sounds decent to me. I'll have to try it out first.

As for the Strength of the Horde power, I did intend to cap it off somewhere down the line. Depends on how well it works when the playtesting.

Theseus Gaming
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>

Seems like a solid mechanic for combat, though in the final version you may want to think about icons for your Melee/Ranged, Sharp/Bashing, etc. The stat lines kind of look like algebra equations and might confuse some people.

Shattered Empires
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Combat Mechanics

I like the way you have it setup, although to agree with others from earlier, don't let the NPCs roll for defenses, since it would definitely slow the game down. Numbers can be adjusted based off play testing but you'll want an average to beat that makes sense based off the game play.

I also agree that you'll want to use icons or something that will help differentiate the abilities and the types of weapons. Stats like that work well for rpg manuals but generally not for a board game. You want it to be easily recognized at a glance without people having to look them up repeatedly.

ThisIsMyBoomstick
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Simple is better

I agree that simple is normally better in a board game. I'll just include actual damage type before the number
So it'll look more like this:
Sharp Melee 3+2

And taking away Defense rolls for the NPCs is definitely starting to sound like a better idea.
I appreciate the suggestions, really. The positivity and the criticism definitely help to motivate me too.

Alas, I shall start working on ranged weapons and magic now. I'll likely add those to this thread once I finish them.

kos
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.

I like the way that both the hero and enemy have special abilities, which makes them more interesting than just 3 dice vs 5 dice. I hope you can keep this trend going with your other enemies, so that each type of enemy is truly unique and so that the Heroes would need to adjust their tactics depending on their enemies.

For the Hero defense, you may be able to streamline the system by removing either the defense roll or the comparison against a variable target number. The two defensive systems achieve the same result, so perhaps only one is needed. The target number is faster and more predictable, whereas rolling defensive dice is slower and less predictable. Whether predictability is good or bad depends on what feel you want from the game. However personally I would tend towards the faster option in order to speed up gameplay, unless rolling defensive dice really enhances the feel that you want for the game. (That said, Heroes rolling defense is generally fun for them when they succeed, so the psychological boost from rolling good defense may be worth the slight sacrifice in speed.)

A note about penalties: People tend to "forget" penalties when it suits them. Let's say my armor gives me a defensive penalty against blunt weapons, then there is no incentive to check what kind of weapon the bad guy has -- I might just be inclined to roll the basic defense and not ask the question. While some players might do this deliberately (a.k.a. "cheating") it is basic human nature that we remember things that are important -- or beneficial -- to us.

With this in mind, I try to make systems where all modifiers are beneficial for the person applying them, so they are incentivized to remember. That way if they forget they are only hurting themselves, rather than leaving forgetful players open to an accusation of cheating. Taking the armor example, I would make it a base defense of 4 with +1 vs Slashing rather than 5 with -1 vs Blunt. There's also the slight psychological difference even where the mathematics are identical: compare "Haha! I get +1 because he's slashing!" with "Oh that's right, I get -1 because he's blunt".

Another point to consider for speed of gameplay is the number of calculations required. For example, you have the attacker rolling multiple dice and then adding a modifier to each individual dice. This means there is 1 calculation per dice per attack, which adds up to lots of calculations over the course of the game.

Back to your original question, my first impression is leaning towards "Too complex". However, that also depends on what you want the pacing of the game to be. For example, many RPGs have math-heavy combat systems but it works because they may only have one major combat scene in a 3 hour session. On the other hand, if you expect the Heroes to fight through multiple groups of enemies in quick succession then you may need to streamline the system a bit.

Regards,
kos

NomadArtisan
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I think your system is too

I think your system is too complex for what it is.

Rolling a number of d6 and scoring those that hit a target value is one of the simplest and most common systems out there.

With the additional defense roll and potential strength, weakness, and weapon type modifiers, you've made a normally simple system take longer to implement. This problem could be mitigated with good graphic design though.

The other problem I see is that the defense roll seems superfluous. A higher defense value already makes it harder to score hits on the model. Why does it also need a roll to further negate hits?

Take a look at Starship Troopers and Battlefield Evolution, both by Mongoose Publishing. They have a more streamlined system of what it looks like you want to achieve.

Also, take a look at Confrontation by Rakham. I don't think this game is in print anymore, but it has a system similar to your defense roll idea. As the attacker, you choose the attack difficulty. This represents how hard it is to land the hit, and on a hit, how hard it is to defend against.

I hope this is taken as constructive criticism. I think you have a good start for where you want this system to go, but I think it needs a bit more refinement.

ThisIsMyBoomstick
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Here's what I've decided to do.

We'll go with the same pairing as was previous. Maverick the Warrior versus a Ghoul.

Originally the Ghoul had a DC of 4 and was also weak to Blunt Weapons. Instead of allowing the Undead to roll dice to counter successful hits made by Heroes, they will simply take hits as they are dealt. So if the Warrior manages to land three hits, he deals that much damage, and the Ghoul is certainly going to die. I'll just say that Weaknesses, rather than dropping an entire die, simply drop the Defensive Class down by 1. So, if the warrior was hitting with a Blunt Weapon, he would simply need to roll 3s on his dice, which, when considering how MOST weapons have bonuses of some kind, won't be hard. (I've already worked a point system for my weapons and statistics, which should cause for a balanced game amongst starting characters)

As for the different types of attacks: While there are plenty, they are mostly obvious. Axes, Swords, and Daggers will be sharp. Maces, Morningstars, Hammers, and Staffs will be blunt. Arrows (and maybe Hand Axes) will be ranged, and the various types of magic will be fairly obvious as well, those being fire, electric, ice, toxic, and divine. It probably sounds like quite a bit, and I'm definitely taking into consideration EVERYTHING being suggested, meaning I'll try and find a way to make everything seem more positive to players so they'll be inclined to keep track, and making the classification of strengths and weaknesses a bit more simplified, but I do, to a certain point, want it to be more than "Roll the dice and achieve a target number and viola, your foe is dead" kind of thing.

Length of combat, and overall, length of game, won't end up being too much of an issue simply because I plan for the setup to be very simple and quick. As it is going to be the main part of the game, I feel like combat should be more fleshed out.

I do love the politeness and the criticism, and I'm going to try and further simplify it, if I can, without sacrificing too much of my original intent for the system. Again, we'll see how it works out in the end! For now, I have another creature for you guys to judge and comment on!

Say hello to the Revenant (A certain thing inspired design and name. 10 points to whomever can guess first!)

Revenant: Major
Special Abilities:
-Stingers – 3[Fire or Poison]+3 | Range 5
-Reanimate – Choose up three Undead in the Recovery Phase to bring back to life on rolls of fives or sixes for Minor enemies and sixes for Major enemies.
Weapon: Claws – 4[Sharp]+1
Defensive Class: 6[Strong to Fire and Sharp]
Resistance: +2
Toughness: 2
Power: 6
Movement: 6

The Fire or Poison bit with the Stingers means that the Revenant can choose which type of magic damage it will be.

Along with the Revenant, I've decided to classify enemies as Minor or Major. Aside from the Reanimate power, this will come into effect with a couple of other things, including the Cleric's Turn Undead power, certain cards that will be implemented down the road, and other kinds of buffs and debuffs that Undead and Heroes can cause.

I suppose now would be a good time to discuss the phases as well. Each turn will be divided up into three phases.
Movement - Pretty obvious. However, in the Movement phase, Heroes get to choose whether they want to move before or after the Undead. This is a group decision, and this is obviously in place for a bit of strategic placement of the Hero.
Combat - Combat is obvious as well. Heroes and Undead act in order of their Movement from highest to lowest. Heroes always act first in ties with the Undead, and in ties with other Heroes, simply choose who goes first. Then the beat downs and the magic blasts and such occur. At the end of every go combat round, there will be a Recovery Phase.
Recovery - This is a combat sub-phase taking place at the end of every combat round where Heroes and Undead can choose to use items and powers specific to that phase. The Revenant's Reanimate power, for instance, allows him to possibly revive three Undead in the Recovery Phase.

The way reviving works is, when an Undead or a Hero "die" they are placed on their side (mini)/flipped over (token) in the combat round that they died in, or help themselves out in some way (buffs, potions, etc). This gives both sides opportunities to tend to their fallen and their injuries if they have the ability to do so. If any Undead aren't brought back in the Recovery Phase, they are removed from the board. Any Heroes not revived are removed as well, but aren't totally out of the game.

I still have to work on how Heroes will come back into the fray, but alas, I know no one enjoys sitting on the sidelines and watching their friends finish up a game for a half-hour or more. Any suggestions for this would be appreciated!

Regaining Power is also something I would like to work on. If it were done every Recovery Phase, there wouldn't even be a point to having the power mechanic, and Special Abilities could be spammed. I'm thinking of maybe only making Power recovery take place after an entire Encounter is dealt with. Again, suggestions for this particular thing are appreciated as well.

If you have any other suggestions or things you want to criticize, feel free! I want to make a game that people will actually enjoy playing, not just something that I would personally enjoy.

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