Skip to Content
 

Meditating on CCG abilities to strengthen Theme

5 replies [Last post]
larienna
larienna's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/28/2008

Note: This post is pretty long, some people already know some of the information in this message, it's just I want to put everybody on the same level. If you have comments regarding this message, let me know.

Summary (if you can understand): For one of my CCG like game, make active abilities not available to creature but only spells in order to reinforce the thematic explanation behind the use of the ability, prevent cards from not being added to a deck due to bad special ability and force players to use spells instead of creatures with similar spell effects.


As some of you know, I am working on a CCG style game that will probably be published as an LCG ( Living card game: Expandable non-collectible card game) that would work similar to Duel Masters.

But like all CCG, the rules is a thin part of the game design. The card design is the biggest part. Now to put everybody on the same knowledge level before explaining the situation, I have been analysing Magic The Gathering and Duel Master and came with the following ability structure:

Passive Abilities: Abilities that are activated only in a specific situation which is normally combat. For example "First Strike", "Unblockable", are passive abilities.

Active Abilities: Abilities that changes the status of the game by changing it's orientation, applying damage, or moving a card into another zone. Destroying a creature moves a card to the battle zone to the graveyard. So the card simply change zone while tapping change it's orientation.

Triggers: Active abilities are generally activated with a trigger that looks like "When Summoned ... do X", "When attacking ...", "When destroyed ...", "Tap this creature ... do X", "Spend mana ... do X", etc.

Conditions: These are additional conditions that must be fulfilled for a passive or active ability to work. It is generally introduced with the keyword "IF" like: "If your opponent has more creature, this creature is unblockable"


OK, now back to the subject. One thing I realized is that when I was playing MTG, I did not took really attention to make strategic deck but I was rather placing card in my deck that either looked cool, tat has not been used for a long time, or that had a thematic relation. For example, I want to make a deck of fairies and dragons ... because I like fairies and dragons.

Most of the time, I was making a deck on the fly just before playing by picking cards semi randomly and only balancing the mana cost. But for duel masters, that is completely a different thing, only special powers matter and if a card has a special power that sucks, well it will never be used.

Now I was trying to see the reason behind this behavior because I like being able to create a deck not only according to the most powerful combo I can make, but also according to the theme. So here is what I found so far:

1- Duel Master had a weird theme making it harder to get attached to it. (It Could be possible).

2- I was not playing competitive. (Another good point, when I played the first MTG video game, I seem to have started to build up a strategy in my decks, but many creature were included because I liked them).

3- MTG has more stats permutation since there is Strength + Health instead of only strength. So much more creature could be created even if they had not any special abilities.

4- In MTG most creatures seem to have passive abilities, while in duel masters a large portion of creatures has Active trigger abilities.

Now point 3 and 4 are actually more important. Let's think in reverse: "What could convince me not to use a creature even if the theme of the creature looked cool". Well in MTG, a creature could have low stats or a bad combination of stats but will not make me reject it from my deck. (ex: "This creature is 5/1, there is no way I can use this!"). As for passive abilities, I see little situation where I would actually reject a card because a passive ability annoys me. (ex: "This creature has first strike, sorry but it completely breaks the deck"). The only thing I can think of is: "Forestwalk is not that useful, since my opponent does not play green". But if you have 1 or 2 forestwalk creature in your deck, it won't be a waste that could have been replaced by a better card.

But in Duel Masters, it's another situation. Since most abilities are active effect, this means that those effects are going to be triggered and change the status of the game. And yes, some effects could convince me not to use a certain card. For example, I would prefer "When summon draw a card" ability, then a "when destroyed, place the creature back in your hand".

But there is worst, Duel Masters also use a lot of conditions for abilities to trigger. And when you look at certain conditions, sometimes you could ask yourself if they are actually going to be fulfilled and you might be tempted to replace it with a card with a more constant ability that you are sure that it is always going to work.

Since strategy is much more important, you are more tempted to place 4 copies of each card to maximize your combo possibilities.

Finally, trigger abilities seems to thin the theme of the game. Why does an ability activates it self "When summoned" or "When Attacking". The creature is suposely busy at the moment, why does it get a chance to use an ability. Taping to use an ability is more logical because instead of "using" a creature to attack, you use it for it's ability. There is also no name to that ability, if you cast "spiral gate" and that "Unsummon" a creature, you can imagine your self casting a portal and see the creature get swallowed. But with a creature ability like "When attacking, unsummon an enemy creature", what the hell did just happen?


So now, this is where the dilema starts, in MTG there seems to be more place to the theme and you are less looking at the card's abilities, but the game seems more driven by the luck of the draw and strategy in deck building is much more limited. While in Duel Masters, the deck building is awesome because you are planning strategy, but the only think you look for is the abilities and it lose all it's theme. Now my goal would be to get something in between and I have thought of something that could be the solution.

Inn my game, each card is a creature and a spell at the same time. Players can either use a card for mana(land), as a creature or as a spell. Up to now, any kind of abilities could be used for creatures, but now I am thinking to proceed otherwise:

1- Creature: would only have passive abilities. For reasons explained above, this will prevent creature rejections, only the spell could suck and the player is not forced to use it. Passive abilities also have a keyword which reinforce the theme and explains why the creature has such abilities. There will also be no need to place a thematic title description of the ability.

It might also solve some issue with an ability like "When attacking, unsummon a creature", does the creature is unsumoned before the battle is resolved or after the battle is resolved. So now during battles, nothing will change the status of the board besides the battle themselves.

2- Spells: would mostly have active abilities that would change the status of the board. Again it make sense that all changes to the board are done before the battle phase. Second, it will force the players to use spells if they need to change the board instead of sumonning a creature that would do the same effect. For example: to "tap a enemy creature", there will be no creature with that ability, only a spell could be used. Some spells could add passive abilities to creature, but it will generally be done with enchantments attacked to target or in play. The spell name also gives the thematical explanation behind the effect.

This process is called restricting the type of abilities to certain area of the game and allow a better control over the game with less chaos. Which is important in my game since I will allow people to design their own card. So that would make the game much less out of control.

The problem is that it reduces the possibilities cards that could be designed. I could run out of permutation sooner if there are too many restrictions on card design. Still, since each card has a spell an a creature, the same creature stats could be permutated with various spell effects, so I doubt that there could be a lack permutation.

Also, I will "cheat" a bit and allow creatures to have certain trigger abilities, for example I could say "You can tap this creature to use the spell ability of this card". So instead of giving a trigger ability to the creature, I'll make the creature use it's own spell ability, and I could force it to use it before the battle phase. Since the spell already have a name, there is no need to explain the theme of the effect.

Some trigger like "When destroyed" could hardly be replaced with a spell. I'll see if I can keep them. Some trigger like "When attacking" could be converted as a passive ability. For example "Power attacker +2000", is in fact a "when attacking" trigger ability but converted as a passive ability.

As for conditions, I am thinking to use them for other purpose, maybe for game wide enchantments. Since they affect most of the time a variable number of creature making the "What you Pay is What you get" philosophy impossible, setting a restriction for a global effect to be active could be the key.

So this is it, if you have comments or suggestions, let me know.

questccg
questccg's picture
Offline
Joined: 04/16/2011
A few concerns

If my understanding is correct, it was a long post and I'm not 100% sure, cards are two (2) types of cards:
1-Creature
2-Spell

So EACH card is BOTH a *Creature* and a *Spell* (If I understood correctly).

The problem I see with this is two-folds:
1-Which artwork are you going to use on the card itself *Creature* or *Spell*?
2-Are you going to be able to FIT all that information onto 1 card (Stats + Passive abilities + Spell)?

I am working on my current DBG and space on cards is limited. I don't know how Magic: the Gathering manages to print so much information on one card! There is even room for *Flavor text*. Probably less room used by the artwork than on my cards... Not really sure.

But space (and cramming things in) is a big issue...

Corsaire
Corsaire's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/27/2013
Magic and such

I can't remember a time since the early nineties when I added a card to a Magic deck for flavor. Magic is a highly balanced cost/benefit game; if you have forestwalk you are giving something up for it, like a point of toughness or a colored mana instead of a colorless one. It may look differently with less cards and less experience. Tournament decks are built on balance, efficiency, probability and tactical theme. Sometimes they are built on semi-broke combos.

I haven't played Duel Masters, but have played Kaijudo, their reworking of the game. I found the deck building fairly simplistic comared to the deeper Magic strategies, but I only tried it for a few months, nothing compared to the time spent with Magic.

I only mention this because I think understanding that a good card game should support an expert mode is pretty important.

For your purposes, it sounds like you have an interesting approach and can do some cool balance things like putting a strong spell on a weak creature card. I found the new dual cast cards in Magic pretty interesting. But I wouldn't sacrifice replayability and expert tactics and complex deck building just to include flavor. For me after an initial "how cool" I don't care if I have a Flaming Carrot Spitoon or a Rambling Bob in my deck, I want the card that best supports my deck strategy; and cards that are strategically duplicates are a waste of a card to me eyes.

larienna
larienna's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/28/2008
Quote:So EACH card is BOTH a

Quote:
So EACH card is BOTH a *Creature* and a *Spell* (If I understood correctly).

Yes, Even worst, each card can be sacrificed as a mana (Like in DM/Kaijudo), so each card has 3 uses.

Quote:
The problem I see with this is two-folds:
1-Which artwork are you going to use on the card itself *Creature* or *Spell*?

Creature

Quote:
2-Are you going to be able to FIT all that information onto 1 card (Stats + Passive abilities + Spell)?

Not so bad so far, here are a few templates made by Fhizban

http://bgd.lariennalibrary.com/uploads/Mainsite/GameIdea/GameIdea-TitanD...

http://bgd.lariennalibrary.com/uploads/Mainsite/GameIdea/GameIdea-TitanD...

Quote:
I haven't played Duel Masters, but have played Kaijudo, their reworking of the game.

It's almost the same thing.

Quote:
I found the deck building fairly simplistic comared to the deeper Magic strategies

Most strategy in MTG is deck building. In DM it's 50/50 because the cards you sacrifice for mana changes the path and options you will take.

Quote:
I only mention this because I think understanding that a good card game should support an expert mode is pretty important.

I would like to have a game easy to learn but hard to master. Not sure if I can acheive it. I hate having long ability text that takes more than 3 lines. I hope tripple function of each card would give the "easy to learn ahard to master" flavor to the game.

Quote:
For me after an initial "how cool" I don't care if I have a Flaming Carrot Spitoon or a Rambling Bob in my deck, I want the card that best supports my deck strategy; and cards that are strategically duplicates are a waste of a card to me eyes.

I want a more balanced approach where players could design their deck by theme or by mechanic without any problems.

From another message, I said that theme based abilities makes card easier to design espeically when you have many hundreds of them to do. It's easier to get a thematic concept and try to use abilities that fits on it rather than making combinations of abilites and trying to fit a theme on it.

Corsaire
Corsaire's picture
Offline
Joined: 06/27/2013
tactical decisions

Quote:
Most strategy in MTG is deck building.

There are big tactical decisions throughout a game of Magic when played competitively. Some people build tactically foolproof decks, but a deck that offers difficult tactical decisions will be a stronger deck played by an experienced player. As an example, blue has many difficult decisions with deciding things like whether to hold mana for a counter or to get another creature on the board. In combat, the choice to block or not block is big, because you may lose a creature that's needed to block a bigger creature or to get in the killing blow myself later. Or do I cast a creature that can attack when it comes out or hold that mana to enhance one of my attackers with an instant in hopes of you choosing to block incorrectly. Or simply hold the mana that make you think I have an instant.

When I was doing the tournament circuit, I tended to build decks with many tough decisions and could often fault myself if I lost for missing a better tactical path. Losing with a deck that is light on tactical play (e.g. back in the day a very fast white weenie deck was popular, yawn) always felt like being ranover with the luck wagon and wasn't as satisfying.

Quote:
I hate having long ability text that takes more than 3 lines.

I know that feeling, my son is into Yugioh and that is torturous with tiny convoluted text. So much of that game is tuned to rares. For the same exact cost you could have a creature with 2000 attack or 1200 attack. The balance is so off, there are like 12-15 cards that are in every deck but a few very special purpose decks, because they are that unbalanced.

Quote:
I would like to have a game easy to learn but hard to master. Not sure if I can acheive it.

Circling back to Magic, I wouldn't dismiss subtle tactical strategies as a hard to master element, some of the best/oldest games rely exactly on the thrice removed strategy layers (e.g. Chess, Go.) I think in a card game having expended resources and instant playables will give you a ton of depth.

Quote:
I want a more balanced approach where players could design their deck by theme or by mechanic without any problems.

From another message, I said that theme based abilities makes card easier to design espeically when you have many hundreds of them to do. It's easier to get a thematic concept and try to use abilities that fits on it rather than making combinations of abilites and trying to fit a theme on it.

I don't fault the approach, but realize some players will feel cheated if they see a 500 card game with 150 unique cards actually only means 25 unique cards with different visual designs (as an extreme example.) I base this on remembering the loud complaints when a Magic set would come out of things like "I don't need another 2/2 3 casting cost green creature!!!"

larienna
larienna's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/28/2008
Quote:I know that feeling, my

Quote:
I know that feeling, my son is into Yugioh and that is torturous with tiny convoluted text. So much of that game is tuned to rares. For the same exact cost you could have a creature with 2000 attack or 1200 attack. The balance is so off, there are like 12-15 cards that are in every deck but a few very special purpose decks, because they are that unbalanced.

Yugioh is extremely unbalanced due to the lack of casting cost. It promote the idea that "I win because my cards are better than yours"

Quote:
Circling back to Magic, I wouldn't dismiss subtle tactical strategies as a hard to master element, some of the best/oldest games rely exactly on the thrice removed strategy layers (e.g. Chess, Go.) I think in a card game having expended resources and instant playables will give you a ton of depth.

One thing in my game is that there is no spell stack because players can cast spell only in 2 specific step of the game. A: during their turn casting phase. B: As a reaction but using their groove. There is no interest to keep mana aside because in can only be used during step A.

Quote:
I base this on remembering the loud complaints when a Magic set would come out of things like "I don't need another 2/2 3 casting cost green creature!!!"

For sure, I want to make all cards unique. In DM, they did the same by releasing basic creature with no abilities that were already available.

I am supplying a link to the rules for those who are interested to know more about the game.

http://bgd.lariennalibrary.com/uploads/Mainsite/GameIdea/GameIdea-TitanD...

Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut