Since it looks like I'm in charge of prototyping Arkopolis Engines, I'll start a blog thread of my own for design updates and comments. Please feel free to post all the comments you like about ideas, critiques, suggestions, anything that comes into your mind for this game we're developing.
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Comments
New Player Mat
Based on comments from Cattlemark in the other RUST blog threads, I took the player mat back to square one to try and make it smaller. The image links below are the result.
New Player Mat: Folded
New Player Mat: Open With Hexes
New Player Mat: Overview
New Player Mat: Left Closeup
New Player Mat: Right Closeup
Folded, the player mat is 7.625" wide and 8.5" tall. Open it is 15.25" wide and 8.5" tall. That's about 33% smaller than the original player mat design.
The top row is the four action slots, except that they're now named after segments of a day: Morning, Mid Day, Evening, and Midnight. After a hard day's work, people are kind of tired, so if you're still doing tasks at Midnight all of your skill checks are at -1.
On the left and right sides are the hard points. These are where the players affix upgrades to their Engines...things like MagShot Rail Guns, Combuston Cannons, etc...
Toward the middle are the two resource wells. During play, these wells will hold the myriad resource tokens...Water, Wood, and Coal in the Combustibles well, and Gears, Wires, Metal, and Magnets in the Scrap Parts well. When it's time to put the game away, the wells line up with the gauges dials (which will be a game spinner variant and not shown in these pictures) so that the player mat can fold flat.
Just to the right of the resource wells are the Steam and Hull gauges. I made these in photoshop instead of scavenging from the web.
The Steam gauge is a combination of the previous steam gauge and over pressure gauge. Pressure is fine as long as it's 70 or below. Between 70 and 90 you run the risk of damaging your Engine (reflected as Hull Damage) and between 90 and 100 you're virtually assured of damaging yourself, so I hope that extra pressure was really necessary. To generate steam pressure you need to use your Boilerman and a water token and a coal or ore token. I'm thinking that water+wood will give you 30 steam points and water+coal will give you 40, but that's just a thought...it may change.
The Hull gauge is a measure of how much more damage your hull can take. From 100 to 40 you're doing ok. From 40 to 20 you will not be able to over pressure the steam gauge, even in an emergency. Between 20 and 00 you lose any residual steam at the end of the day. The boilers just won't hold the pressure and you'll have to stoke the boilers at the beginning of every day if you want to accomplish anything at all.
So, anyway, that's it for tonight. Jump in and let me know what you think of it and any other ideas you have.
Tiles
For some reason I always imagined the tiles being more wastelandish with significant elements being smaller.
Rather than an urban sprawl, I always thought it would be a sprawl, but only a portion of the map.
Am I making any sense?
Tiles
Those tiles are a first draft. Proof of concept thing. I'm still getting the scale right.
Read the history thread and you'll see that the mcguffin that depopulated the world was biological so no radiated wastelands. Last year there was a book and discovery channel series about what earth would be like if humans suddenly disappeared. This world is a lot like that. 90 years after all the people died of plague, our only surviving humans are emerging from their arkolopises to explore and scavenge the remains.
Tiles
Mojo beat me to it..
The movie is Aftermath: Population Zero, and it really ties in with the 'new' theme of Rust.
We're not in the Aussie Wasteland anymore, Toto ;)
Don't forget
This is only the prototype, not the final product. Initially the game was going to be on a much larger scale, but we brought it down to much smaller size. The game is all about scavenging in ruined, overgrown cities looking for lost tech, so it's moved to be set inside a city limits. Hopefully that answers your question
Mojo: Great work. I like the new look, especially the change in name for the action slots to times of day. The Action #1 name was kinda jarring in hindsight. Also I'm glad someone has skills in prototyping. My stuff always turns out nothing like I envision it probably because I keep trying to do everything in a word .doc :-). I really need to learn to use other programmes to do design work.
Rats people beat me to it...again. ;-)
Ewain wrote:We're not in the
Yes but I am in Aussie wasteland ;)
Ill have to check out the link it sounds interesting.
Adjustment to the New Player Mat
I adjusted the prototype player mat for out game. I removed the Hard Point space in the lower right corner and replaced it with a "Name Plaque". This plaque shows the Engine's name and some basic stats that will varry with each Engine style.
Boiler Specifications
Wood & Water Yield 30 Steam
Coal & Water Yield 40 Steam
Over Pressure Warnings
Caution Level Causes 6 Hull Damage
Danger Level Causes 12 Hull Damage
Hull Integrity Warnings
Caution Level Prevents Over Pressuring
Danger Level Cannot Retain Pressure
Here's a couple of pics...
Plaque in place
Plaque detail
These numbers will change a little for each style of Engine. The Excelsior might be a Destroyer Class.
The next size down would be a Frigate Class. It is underpowered and has only 2 Hard Points, but her boilers are sturdy. Steam yields of 25/35 and over pressure of 4/8
Stepping down again is a Corvette Class. It's small with only enough room for 1 Hard Point and fairly thin plating on her boilers, but it has a lot of power. Steam yields of 40/50 but over pressure of 10/20
I'm just spouting off numbers here, I'd be grateful if someone came up with a chart of 6 different Engine classes and the steam and hull values and any other info you think would be useful.
Steam Yield
Rather than stating wood+water = 30 Steam and coal+water=40 Steam why not use a standard ratio
4 wood + 1 Water = 30 steam
3 Coal + 1 Water = 30 Steam
If that is standard across the game then the engine spec could be Max Steam: 40
Engine classes
I agree with Relexx that a standard ratio for steam make a lot of sense, and makes it easier to compare different engines.
Making 6 different engine classes, on the other hand, is a bother.
Using the 'standard' classification and starting with a Corvette in the low end, the list goes like this;
Corvette, Frigate, Destroyer, Light Cruiser, Cruiser, BattleCruiser
That spread is too wide to be useful, since the BC will stomp half the list without breaking a sweat, and the Corvette is useless against anything but the Frigate (or a battleship)...
So I suggest we decide on 3 classes, and make 2-3 of each with slightly different specs to provide the variety I think you're looking for.
Excellent Work!
I just can't get over how impressive this project is! Really, really good advice and contributions!
Mojo, once again you blow me away with your prototyping skills! I'll stop gushing now.
Okay...the new design is great. I'm not so sure about the automatic -1 at midnight, though. Is there a gaming mechanics reason why there's a blanket -1 for midnight actions? It seems a bit random to me. Sure...I know you've made the argument that it's midnight and you're tired, but I could make that same argument for a morning action. I'm a night person, so the morning is harder for me. Although I have to confess that after lunch I could use a nap, too...so the afternoon is also a time when I'm likey to be tired. See my point? I think we should lose the -1 unless there's a compelling reason for keeping it that I'm not seeing (please remember...I'm flexible...I just want to know why). If we MUST keep the -1, perhaps it occurs at different times on different Engines?
Would it be possible to add the cool looking bezels from the old gauges on the new gauges? I like the new ones, but I think the old bezel added something to the look of the gauges and since there are fewer of them now, I think it'll look great. No worries if it's a pain to do, though. I realize this is a prototype. In fact, I was wondering if the final version of the player mat shouldn't be at bit...well...messy if you know what I mean. These contraptions have been cobbled together from parts that are 100 years old or so. The builders would use whatever they could find that fit the purpose. Old ashtrays for the resource bins, the gauges should be mismatched, there should be rust and stains everywhere. These player mats are gorgeous. I don't think that's how things would look. Would it be distracting and difficult to tell what things are for if they're messed up and mismatched? I don't know...just a thought.
Do we have to have different classes of Engines? Why not just have different Engines? Classes seems really organized to me. Too organized for what's essentially a post-apocalyptic world. I see a hodge-podge of different Engines built by all sorts of different cultures, races, religions, etc. I think the Engines would be built based on what's important to the different factions that built them. For instance, perhaps the Engines built by a religious sect would be based more on defense than offense? They're slow, but they're built with lots of hull strength. Protection is provided while they preach "The Word" to the masses. Then there's "The People of the Wood"...forest dwellers...their Engines are built with mostly natural resources...wood, etc. As a result, they're lighter and they move very fast. Both offer protection in different ways (speed vs strength) and both are non-violent. Sure...they've gotta have weapons systems, but I think we could come up with some really cool ideas about how to play balance the different Engines. I see the need for the classes....they provide an organization scheme to help play balance and categorize the Engines. Perhaps my suggestion is essentially the same thing and it's just semantics?
All the numbers and the ratios will probably need to be tweaked anyway during playtesting, so I'm happy with how they're set up now as something to go on.
The name plaque is a great idea! I've always liked a quick reference chart so pouring over the rules during a game is not necessary.
No time to put a synopsis together this evening. I'll try to get something coherent this weekend.
-CB-
CloudBuster wrote:Okay...the
Okay...the new design is great. I'm not so sure about the automatic -1 at midnight, though. Is there a gaming mechanics reason why there's a blanket -1 for midnight actions? It seems a bit random to me. If we MUST keep the -1, perhaps it occurs at different times on different Engines?
I might have an answer for this. Look below :-)
Do we have to have different classes of Engines? Why not just have different Engines?...I see a hodge-podge of different Engines built by all sorts of different cultures, races, religions, etc. I think the Engines would be built based on what's important to the different factions that built them. Perhaps my suggestion is essentially the same thing and it's just semantics?
Probably is just semantics, but I actually agree here. Classes is too military, too organised for this world. You hit on a great idea of Factional Engines (this'll probably answer Ewain's question in the other blog as well) being built based on the Arkopolises own protocols and ideals and this is how the Engines should be designed. The same idea remains, they're just not classes of Engines, and their names should represent the Arkopolis they hail from. The Excelsior is our first one and is maybe from Nuevo Refugio which should be the base, that everything else is based off.
it also leads into an interesting thought that my wife gave me. Why not have the crews be factional as well, rather than generic. Each Arkopolis is going to be quite different in outlook so their crews should be as well. Perhaps remove the -1 from midnight, but include some negative and/or positive modifiers to the crew cards, or to how they pilot their Engine. This means that Engines will be different based on their home Arkopolises needs , beliefs, etc, plus they'll play differently with their crews. It may need a whole new shake up on how we think of things at the moment, but quite a cool idea. It'll mean a bit more work making the crews different, or at least play different, yet still be balanced within the greater scheme of the game.
The name plaque is a great idea! I've always liked a quick reference chart so pouring over the rules during a game is not necessary.
Yep. Love it and what you need to know is right there, no fluffing through a rulebook to find the requirements for steam point generation.
Wow!
I haven't been following the design thread, but the graphic design of this is beautiful. A couple of comments:
1. While I love the gauge concept, spinners are not always very stable in their positioning, especially over a 0-100 scale (they are designed to spin freely, after all). This could be a problem.
2. The plaque is great too, but it's very wordy. Using icons might be an improvement (and would leave space for more rules summary).
A Lot of Good Input
Thank you all...keep it coming...there's a lot of good input here.
You're right, thinking of the Engines in "classes" is too organized. Each Arkopolis sends out the best it can make from the materials at hand and the purpose of each Engine is to bring home more materials and spread the power and influence of their liege Arkopolis. So, designing the Engines to be more widely divergent is a good idea.
Still, there has to be game balance. This could be achieved through tailoring the crew to each specific Engine so if you choose to play Nuevo Refugio you get Excelsior and her four basic crew members...Navigator, Gearsmith, Boilerman, and Scavenger. You then choose three or four Mission Specialists geared toward how YOU want to play. You might select a Commando and three Armsmen because you plan to be aggressive, or you might select a Scholar, an extra Gearsmith, and two Armsmen with high targeting skills because you plan to search for blueprints and build build build.
The main thing is that we want to make the game "replayable" so it needs to be versatile enough to mold into different playing styles with different paths to victory.
All of these ideas need to be explored more fully in a separate blog thread, and I think Casamyr wants to get your opinions on the different skills to use for each crew member, so let's hold off more specific discussion on crew until then.
Steam formulas were mentioned above. I had imagined that a boiler action would just be 1 water and 1 wood or coal to get XX steam, but I can see that more fine control would be required, so it could be that you MUST use 1 water but your choice of combustibles varies your steam. Each wood is worth 10 steam and each coal is worth 20 steam. So, on a given turn you might stoke the boiler with 1 water, 2 coal and 3 wood to get 70 steam. That amount of steam might last you through a couple of game turns so you might not have to stoke the boilers every turn. It just depends on how much steam you use and what reserve levels you want to maintain for emergencies.
Also, we could vary the efficiency of different Engines. For example, Excelsior burns wood at 1:10 but Majesty burns wood at 1:12 and Czar Nicholas burns wood at 1:8.
DogBoy brought up the gauge needle issue which we discussed about 100 posts ago in a different thread (hard to keep up with all this creativity) so let me summarize again. Spinners do, naturally, spin. I found that by using a spacer, like a washer or grommet or o-ring, between the spinner and the hub, I was able to make the spinner very tight and unable to move on its own. So, the concept CAN work, it's just a matter of finding a cost effective way of implementing it on the mass produced final product. For now, we'll just say it CAN work and we'll leave it to the manufacturing brains to figure our HOW to make it work later on. As a fall back position, it has been suggested that we could use wooden cubes placed on the gauges to represent steam points. This may be how we need to do it on the prototypes...we'll see. I first want to look at the DIY clock kits and see if the clock hands might be usable as gauge needles in our prototypes.
OK, so I'm really late for work. I'll have to post more later, but keep the ideas and questions coming y'all. Everything you suggest or ask leads us in new and interesting directions. I love brainstorming.
Factional crews
Each Arkopolis is going to be quite different in outlook so their crews should be as well. Perhaps remove the -1 from midnight, but include some negative and/or positive modifiers to the crew cards, or to how they pilot their Engine. This means that Engines will be different based on their home Arkopolises needs , beliefs, etc, plus they'll play differently with their crews. It may need a whole new shake up on how we think of things at the moment, but quite a cool idea. It'll mean a bit more work making the crews different, or at least play different, yet still be balanced within the greater scheme of the game.
I wonder...if we have factional crews, does that mean if the crew members from other Engines are captured, they can't be used by your Engine (assuming its from a different Faction)? I wondered if it might be cool for the penalties (the -1) to be based on the character's skills themselves. So...if a Religious Faction Crew member is captured by...hmmm...well let's say a Forest faction, there would be penalities to the Religious crew member's stats because they aren't....um....happy? Is that right? They're out of their element...just the basic mechanics of how the Engine runs are the same, but it's not "home", so the skills suffer.
To further complicate things, could some Factions out and out hate each other so much that capturing their crew is pointless? None of their skills would work because they would refuse to assist that particular Faction in any way?
OR...maybe capturing crew members is only good for VP's and that's that? Simple, yes? Basic crew members are not interchangeable, but you can move specialists around with no problem?
-CB-
More good ideas
I quite like the idea of your base crew, then the choice of a number of mission specialists depending on how the player wants play, but that is a whole nother discuss, in a whole nother blog :-).
Yeah the steam formulas I think will take a little while to find the right balance. I can see the ease of the first formula - real quick to figure out what you need to get xx steam. Water is always a given - can't have steam without water. with them being smaller numbers you can plan much further ahead, than the first numbers. With this system, its much easier to get closer to that red zone, without damaging too much, unless you want to of course.
I like the idea of engines having different efficiency ratings too and would be quick to read in icon form, though that would break from the theme somewhat, to make it 'easier/quicker' for the player to read. The only downside I guess, is the extra math required once we go away from whole numbers since both coal and wood would need to have their own ratio. It's very easy to add 2 x 10 + 3 x 20, but its a bit harder, read slower, to do 3 x 12 + 2 x 8.
On saying that I do like the idea of different ratios.
Terrain Tiles...What Are They Good For?
I'm turning my attention to the terrain tiles that we'll use in the prototypes and I'd like some input from our brainstormers...and any one else who want to chime in.
In RUST our 2010 steampunky walking machines (Engines) will be exploring dilapidated turn-of-the-century cities that have been abandoned since 1920 or so. Our own tech has not evolved much since the plague and in some ways has slipped back a bit. We're looking for machine parts, old but functional tech items, raw materials, and fuel for our Engines.
As it stands now, the terrain tiles are made up of one 4-tile star and nine 3-tile chevrons that can be combined in a lot of different configurations to make differing play experiences. Each hex represents 500 meters from flat to flat.
Here's a pic of some of those configurations
My question is...what kinds of terrain are we likely to encounter in cities such as I've described and what would you expect to find in those terrain hexes?
As an example, these are the types of terrain we're thinking about now...
Coal Yard: coal to burn in the steam engines
Overgrown: wood to burn in the steam engines
Reservoir: water for the boilers
Junkyard: scrap metal
Factories: scrap metal and machine parts
University: blueprints and artifacts
Power Plant: machine parts and electrics
We look forward to seeing what you come up with.
terrain types
Suburban - Nothing, just rubble
Workshop - Machine parts
library - blueprints
River - water
Museum - artefacts
Parks (though this could fall into the overgrown catergory): Wood
I think that we should have some terrain that has nothing associated with it, just the terrain.
Suburbia
I don't think there was too many suburbs at the turn of the century. Things were mostly rural or city and if you were in the city you lived in apartment buildings or tenements. A few unproductive rubble areas are fine, I just don't think we should call them suburbs. :-)
I hesitate to include rivers because of the variability of hex placement. If hexes are layed down randomly then river segments might not hook up properly. Also, I think that there should only be ONE of certain very useful places. One coal yard, one reservoir, one junkyard, one university. This will create conflict between players who try to utilize these limited areas
I see university/library/museum as being basically the same.
I also see factory/workshop being basically the same.
fair enough comment. Wasn't a
fair enough comment. Wasn't a hundred percent sure what you were after, but yeah. I totally agree that there is only 1 of each to create conflict between the players too.
Church?
How about a Church or Temple hex. Maybe instead of a scavenge card they could get something else there...how about a random new crew member card...someone lost in a "previous expedition" that they have now rescued? Of course, it shouldn't just be a free crew card...maybe there's a 50/50 chance they find him and he's dead so he's only valuable for his VP score not as a new crew member to use during the remainder of the game. Also, we'd have to limit it to one rescue per player or else someone would just keep going there and collecting lots of extra crew. :-)
Steam Gauge
I was working on a new mock up of the player mat when my computer crashed. No biggie. It's an iMac and it's covered by AppleCare so I'm dropping it off to be fixed tomorrow. Also, I have two iMacs and all my game files are stored at Dropbox.com, so all I actually lost was the player mat file I was working on. Easy enough to recreate.
So, today I went to Michaels Arts & Crafts and bought a set of clock kit hands to try out on the player mat. Since I could not print up a new one, I experimented on the old one instead. The clock hands were about twice as long as they need to be so I cut them down and filed a point on them and then used brass brads to connect them to the player mat. They work good enough for prototypes.
Here's a Pic
At $1.50 per clock hand they're too expensive for me to make too many of them and I bought the last set Michael's had in stock. I'm going to look on some craft supply places online and see if I can find the right size and buy in bulk. I figure I'll need 3 or 4 prototypes and each one will have 6 player mats and each mat has two gauges, so that's 48 clock hands and the brads to attach them.
I'll keep you posted.
Guage
Damn about the comp, but at least it's not a huge loss with anything (and covered as well). The hands look good. I'm trying to think of a middle ground between the clock hands and a cheaper alternative but can't think of anything.
What's the turn like on them with the brads?
Gauges
The turn is firm using the brads through the foam core but that type of board is spongey and that might be affecting the firmness so I wanted to test them on some mat board, too. I also got some brass eyelets that lock down with a hammer/punch tool. That would make a much more flush mounting where the brad is a bubble the sticks up above the board surface. It may be a few days before I get the chance, though. While I do have another computer, it is in a different part of the house from my workshop and my dedicated prototyping printers.
Guages
Probably. While I like foam core, it doesn't take much to ruin it and mat board will have a totally different feel to it. The eyelets will likely do a better job too from my, albeit limited, experience. The brads can quickly loosen up.
Terrain Hexes
Spent a lot of time thinking about the terrain hexes this weekend. Here's my current thoughts...please feel free to offer your opinions and suggestions.
The current board design consists of 31 hexes arranged as nine 3-hex chevrons and 1 4-hex trefoil as has been shown previously.
In order to build in competition among the players, there are only one of certain hexes where vital resources can be obtained...
1 Reservoir to obtain water for the boilers
1 University to research blueprints to build new machines
1 Coal Yard to obtain the best fuel for the boilers
1 Sanctuary from which you may rescue a new crew member
These four locations make up the 4-hex trefoil and would typically be placed at the center of the board.
Each of the nine 3-hex chevrons would have a key resource hex in the middle with moderate movement costs and lesser hexes on each side that offer limited resources. One lesser hex would have a minimal movement cost and the other a high movement cost.
Key Hexes
3 Factory to obtain gears for machines
3 Scrapyard to obtain metals for machines
3 Power Plant to obtain electrics for machines
Low Movement Hexes
4 Residential to obtain a random resource
5 Rubble to obtain a random resource
High Movement Hexes
4 Urban to obtain random resource
5 Overgrown to obtain wood to fuel the boilers
So far these lists specifically produce Water, Coal, Wood, Blueprints, Gears, Metal, Electrics, and Crew.
The random resources would be Water, Coal, Wood, Gears, Metal, Electrics, and Artifacts
I got to thinking that certain machines, such as airships or windmills, would require cloth, but cloth would be one of the first things to rot after 80 years so we'd be unlikely to find any. So, thinking of replacements for cloth, I came to Leather. Since we had always intended there to be deadly critters to battle against, I figured why not make them a resource as well. So, players would have to kill the critters wherever they find them to obtain the Leather. Critters might be more likely to be found in the Overgrown hexes, but there should be a chance of encountering a critter in any hex.
So, does that mean we need to add a "Tanner" skill to the crew cards so players can turn critters into Leather? :-)
I'd say yes we do need a
I'd say yes we do need a Tanner skill. it's a pretty specialized ability to turn an animal pelt into something that could be used to make sails, etc without the leather ripping and tearing apart. A nice use for critters by the way than just straight VP. If players turn them in for leather do they get VP or are critters jsut a danger than must be faced with no reward, other than the opportunity to gain a vital resource?
Nice work in this. I'd been thinking about this, while working on the the rules v0.1 which are slowly by the way, but getting there. I hadn't envisioned every hex having a use, but since the game has changed so much, it makes sense that the most important things are in the center of the board - depending on the configuration of course - with everything else scattered around.
Critters to Leather...good idea...
This is a pretty good idea, but instead of creating a whole new skill, couldn't each critter have a "Leather Value" or some such stat that tells you how much leather you get when you kill it? This could serve as a size value, too. So...let's say you've got the option of putting an Ornithopter in the air or a Hydro-Bopter. The Ornithopter takes 3 leather and the Bopter only takes two. So the player pokes around until he kills enough critters to get the leather he needs.
This means we'll needs some stats on the flying contraptions, yes? What are the flying contraptions used for? Bombardment? Recon? Character Movement? I was thinking the Ornithopter could hold a couple people, or perhaps a pilot and some ordinance of some kind, whereas the Bopter can only hold a pilot....meh. I don't know. Flying around seems to have a lot of stuff attached to it. Perhaps we put in the hooks for these now, (like the Grounders), but add them in an expansion?
What's a windmill do for you? Do you attach it to your Engine and it augments...what?....speed? Perhaps it's a one time thing that you sink into the ground to try to get some water? Perhaps it's an attachment for generating electricity? I can also see adding sails, but I don't see them working on your Engine for anything really useful. These things are big, lumbering vehicles...sails would be better for the contraptions you use for investigating and exploring.
Leather & Windmills
Leather...Ya, I think that instead of VPs, critters would have Leather Values. So, a Glow Panther might be worth 1 Leather while the Cattelope, being larger, is worth 3 Leather.
Tanner Skill...How about we make the Scavenger skill work for leather tanning too. The Armsman kills the Cattelope then the Scavenger takes over and transforms it into Leather resources. So, if RED kills a Cattelope he would keep the critter card until he has an opportunity to assign someone to transform it.
Windmill...I wasn't thinking so much of a Dutch Windmill as a power generating wind turbine. Attaching one to a hard point might give you 10 or 20 steam every Morning without having to use your Boilerman to stoke the fires. Just a thought.
We gotta have the classic
We gotta have the classic antlion. Been done in so many different games. :-)
I think we do need that skill, tearing the skin of an animal isn't going to work too well, unless it's been treated and the Scavenger is the person who is likely to have that skill, though hunters (like armsman) and people with an interest in such things.
Flying contraptions, I see as having two uses - getting characters further into the field and to ferry things back to the home 'city' though Mojo and I and working on something that could make these a bit more important. Once we've nailed it down (We're getting close I think) we'll open it up to every one for their thoughts and comments. If you go back and look at the early prototype item cards that Mojo made there is for an AreoCoach which was to be used to ferry resources and used quite a bit of SP I think.
I like the idea for windmills, but I also like CLoudBusters Idea too. Maybe it is a different thing. A one time use item that pulls water up, but is then destroyed taking valuable resources with it. I'd make it a low resource needed requirement, but it's a huge choice - try and get to the reservoir or know for a fact you can get water, but you'll lose a few resources doing so. Be better than running out.
Which is something to consider. What happens if a player runs out of water and cannot generate any more steam?
Terrain & Stuff
Antlion...Sure, sounds great!
Flying Machines...I'm starting to wonder if this might be too complicated...will we need figurines to represent the airships as they shuttle back and forth or go on bombing runs? can we shoot them down? will they need a player ay to keep track of their actions?
Windmills as well drillers...might be necessary if a player runs out of water, huh? :-) Hadn't considered running out of water. Have to think about that one.
The link below is a new terrain mockup with text. Not sure I'm totally happy with this but I guess it will do for the prototypes.
Terrain 2.0
It's a biggish image and you might have to zoom in to see the detail.
Let me know what you think.
Terrain, Windmills, running out of power, etc.
Terrain: Hmmm....well I don't hate the tiles with the text, but I'm not sure I like it all that much, either. I'm really torn cuz I kinda like the idea that you don't have to poke around in the rules to see what types of things you're likely to find in the different terrain hexes. Perhaps we could have another plaque type thing on the board somewhere where the differing terrain types are listed. Like a map legend or something? The text seems to make the board a bit "busy" don't you think?
Along these same lines, a cheat-sheet of the different steam formulas would also be helpful. Maybe a card or two that has the information on it that players can refer to during play? I've played games that have summary information on separate cards before. I liked 'em. They're helpful.
Critters: So...no VP's for critters? What if the VP's could also translate to leather? So the player has to decide if he wants to forego the VP's for the leather value instead? Does that make the critters too valuable, or does a multipurpose critter add play value? I like the idea of multipurpose critters and would like to see how it works. I don't really know. Playtesting will tell us. For the record, I like AntLion, Glow Panthers, Grit Scorpions, IronBugs, Razorbacks, Sun Devils, and Needle Flies as some potential creatures.
Flying Contraptions: Yep! Mojo you thought of the same thing I did! Can we shoot them down? We'll need figurines to keep track of 'em etc. etc. That's why I thought they might be better as an expansion.
Running out of water: Whoa! Yeah....that's a bad thing. I like the idea that the windmills use up some resources, but you get water in return. We could even have a couple grades of windmill type gadgets...perhaps windmills are the least valuable...they use the least amount of resources and they provide the least amount of water. Next a Water Pump...uses more resources, but provides more water. Lastly...a Hydro-Pump Mechanism. Uses a lot of resources, but you get to keep it...brings up less water than a Windmill. Meh...I dunno. Once again...it's a guess and we'd need to play with it during playtesting to see if the idea holds water. <--HA! Didja see what I did there? Comedy! I'm really very tired...getting loopy.
So...what DOES happen if you run out of water? Are you a sitting duck? Is there a way for a waterless Engine to search for water? We don't like the idea of someone being eliminated, but now I'm not sure what to do. I'm thinking I'll just mosey on over to RED's neck of the woods and pound on him for a while to get some resources and remove a rival Engine. Is it just TOO BAD if you run out of water? You can still play...but you gotta get some water. Is there anything you can do without SP? Maybe we could include some tech that grabs a little moisture out of the air? An artifact, perhaps? You'd need to put it on a hardpoint, but it would collect some H2O for you. OR...mabe you find some blueprints that show you how to make a Dew Point Collector? Does steam HAVE to be wasted? OR...could you augment your Engine with some type of recycling doohickey that captures some of the water in the steam and puts it right back into your boilers?
Oh! Almost forgot to mention. I like the idea that the Scavenger has the tanning skill (but I still like the idea that we don't NEED the skill....Just give each critter a Leather Value and call it a day OR...the Leather Value and the Victory Points are the same depending on if you keep the critter or use him for his leather.)
Water's gone
If the windmill is 'common knowledge' all you need to do is scrap something and use the parts to build one.
That's probably the whole day gone (scrap/build/pump), and if there's another Engine on the horizon you really don't need a creature to barge in too...
Flying machines could be too
Flying machines could be too complicated, if it goes beyond the AreoCoach, though players will want to shoot it down if it comes too close.
I've actually been thinking of figurines, or more likely tokens to represent characters, especially when a character leaves an Engine to run a mission. We would need tokens to show where they are and to prevent arguments - it could even come from a central pool.
Perhaps if you run out water, you spent time drilling a hole to find something. Maybe you take an action to drill - no resources needed, just physical labor. You choose a roll to make an invention check at -3 for the first action. Next time, its at -2, -1, then 0. You should always find water after day has passed. Once found, you then take a water token, which should be enough to get you to the reservoir to refill properly.
lastly, I think the terrain is a little busy. I found it hard to focus on the writing, initially then I got used to it. Maybe a small reference card would be useful, It would take long to figure out which hex did what, but for new players it would be a godsend.
Terrain, Water & Airships
Terrain...ya, well, as I said, I wasn't thrilled with the look either :-) Even without the words, the Google Earth screen grabs I'm using are patchworks and busy. Of course, in the final product we'll have some most-excellent artist to make it pretty. :-) Still, I like making nice prototypes and this one ain't there yet.
Water...Putting on thinking cap...In most cases, I would thing a steam powered engine is a closed system. What we see coming out of the smokestacks is not steam, it's the smoke from the burning coal or wood. Combustibles heat the water changing it into high pressure steam which runs through pipes to turn gears and flywheels, cooling on the way, losing pressure, becoming water again, and then flowing back into the Engine's water tank to start the cycle all over again. So maybe water is not a crucial ingredient after all. Where we wold lose water is in tethered operations where the steam vents at the other end of the hose or where we have to charge up a pressure tank for untethered use.
So, I guess the way to handle it is to assume you have a closed system and do not need to add water...unless you reach a certain damage level, at which point you better have some spare water or you're in trouble. In our current player mat it says a hull damage in the danger area (red zone on the gauge) means you cannot hold pressure. That implies that the steam is leaking out and there goes your water, too. So, I propose that the only time you NEED to have water is when you damage goes into the RED zone. As soon as that happens you MUST spend 1 water along with your combustibles each morning until you can get the damage repaired.
This still doesn't address the question of what happens if you DON'T have any water, but using this method, it's not likely to be a problem early in the game so you have time, if you're smart, to get some water reserves built up at the Reservoir hex.
Airships...still torn about this...it's a vital part of the steampunk meme so ignoring it will not be popular, but we need to keep it minor at this point, I think. Also, it would take a lot of Glow Panther pelts to make a dirigible :-) Let's put this on a back burner for a little while and give it more thought. It may be something that we plant into the mechanics but don;t fully utilize until later.
Clock Hands
I don't know where you are based, but a quick web search found
UK:
http://www.clockparts.co.uk/hands2.htm
GBP 0.5 per triple
USA:
http://norkro.com/index_files/page0004.htm
USD 0.75 per pair
....looks like they are typically sold in pairs (no surprise there). Could the two gauges be different sizes (one using the minute hand and the other using the hour hand)? [ edit: the UK site is 50p for hour, minute and second hands ]
Clocks & Terrain
DogBoy...Thanks for the UK link. I'm in the USA. I spend an hour or so searching and theorizing on the hands a couple of days ago and found several sources...still considering it. Nothing is exactly the right size or exactly the right quantities, but I think I'll work something out. :-)
Played with the terrain tile designs a little this morning and took it in a totally different directions. There's a link below to the image. Let me know what you think of the tile design, not the 4-tile configuration, the design "style" for the tiles themselves.
Alternate Terrain
Keep in mind that the images wold get done by an artist and would all have a similar style and feel, not this mishmash of clip art pics.
New Look
I really like this look. It's very stylized with a huge steam punk overtone to it is would be quite unique. Everything seems right - it's not busy, you get an idea of what it is at a glance. The, I can only assume, faux leather background is a nice touch too and the bolted on plaques give all the info really quickly and doesn't distract from the image.
It really makes it seem like an 'old-style' game which fits with the broken world of RUST. I definitely prefer this over the first mock-up.
Terrain Tiles Again
OK, here's a set of one of each type of tile in the new design. I purposefully rotated them all differently so that we cold judge how they'll look in actual play.
I changed the name of the Reservoir to Wellhead because I could not find a lake image I liked in the 'HO Model Train Style"
Newest Terrain Samples
BTW, this is a really large image, so you may have to scroll and drift to see it all.
Let me know what you think.
New Tiles
Yeah, Very cool. One thing I have noticed, and maybe it is just me, but we seem to have dropped a couple of resources - springs and magnets I think. Are they found in the Metals/electrics places, or have we just forgotten about them completely?
Pared Down
While designing the card mockups and terrain mockups, I just thought it was getting too fiddly, so I pared down the resources to coal, wood, water, gears, metals, electrics, leather, and crew. Others can be added back if you like, no biggie, just trying to streamline it a bit.
Down, down
No biggie, just making an observation, but yeah when I was looking at them there's a big list - wood could/should also be used as a resource in building things too. Do I use to to fuel my engine, or build that piece of equipment.
The Duality of Wood
Casamyr, that's a good point. Wood could, indeed, be a double purposed resource. Adds another decision level where a player running short of wood might need to scrap an artifact or equipment to obtain a combustible.
Wood vs Wood
It's one of those great steampunk memes, but I actually hadn't thought that far ahead, that you may need to scrap something to obtain a combustible. That's a huge decision to make, or a no brainer - steam pressure or something I can, hopefully, build again later.
Clock Hands
Just read through this and had a thought about the gauge for damage and pressure. If you had two hands, one long and one short like a clock, why not have one gauge? The gauge could go from 0 to 100 (or whatever) and the long hand would start at 100. If the engine is damaged the long hand gets moved around the gauge, closer to 0. The short hand shows the available steam pressure and cannot go past the long hand. Engine damage would serve to limit the maximum usable steam pressure.
Clock Gauges
That's an interesting concept though I wonder if the gauge "looking like a clock" would be confusing. I'll experiment with it a bit. Having the hull points on the smaller-inner gauge and the steam points on the longer-outer gauge would at least be an efficient use of the clock hands I'd have to buy since they come in pairs. :-)
Terrain v3
Here's a graphic with a new format for the terrain hexes and an example layout with six players. It's a big graphic so you'll need to zoom in to see the details.
Sample RUST Terrain v3
This terrain style shows two resources that are available in each terrain hex. My idea is that a crew member goes out to find resources, skill checks his scavenge skill to see if he found the first one, then does it again to see if he found the second one.
The Steam number is the cost in steam points for an Engine to enter that hex.
All the terrain images are model railroad buildings and landscape. I changed the "Reservoir" to a "Wellhead" because I cold not find a model railroad lake that I liked.
The color-coded player chevrons are where each engine starts the game. I laied it out as a chevron since I'd expect we'd want to use the same die-cut instead of having to make a new single-hex die-cut. I may do away with the center trefoil for the same reason, but I have to examine how that affects the possible layout configurations.
To each side of the start hex are legends for the Skill and Resource icons. This does not seem like a particularly good use of the space, however, so I'm certainly open to other ideas for how to utilize those hexes.
I look forward to seeing y'all's comments.
Use of Tiles
Mate. I love the start tiles. Everything you need to know about is right there - skill icons/resources icons. It might not be good use of the space, but it solves the problem of a reference card to look at. Your other option is to make them game tiles, but I really like that idea.
The idea of a singe die-cut is not a bad idea as you'd only need 1 rather than 3, where i is only used to produce a singe trefoil tile or 6 single start tiles. On syaing that though,I think that the center trefoil is a big factor on the layout, but it'll just be experimenting with it I guess to see waht kinds of layouts can be achieved - probably bucketloads.
What is the other icon on the University? It's not on the resource card.
The Secret Icon
Good eye, Casamyr. I had thought about making the university a place where you could also get an artifact so that icon was for artifacts. But the more I thougt about it and with the discussions you and I had in email, I do not really think it would work to have a dedicated artifact hex.
Glad you like the start chevrons. As the game design develops we may find a better use for those side hexes, but you're right, the icon key is good to have.
Artifacts
I didn't see there to be a dedicated artifact hex, in fact I saw the only to get an artifact was to find it in the Encounter (rats, can't remember the word you used) deck, rather than making a skill check to find it. You need to get really, really lucky to find one of the special artifacts.
Terrain Tiles v4
I'm working on a new tile arrangement, something I'm calling "superhexes" Here are a couple of examples
Center Superhex
Player Superhex
The center superhex has one of each of the key tiles while the player superhexes have the unspecialized terrain tiles.
I envision the board set up being like this: The center superhex is placed in the center of the table and players take turns placing their player superhex with two rules...The player superhexes have to touch another superhex already on the board and the gray start hex cannot touch any other superhex. Here are a few examples of possible board configurations.
Compact Hex City
Expanded Hex City
Amorphous City
I look forward to seeing comments and suggestions.